Non Muslims, how do you explain the existence of the Quran/Sincerity of the Prophet?

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Sister Unknown said:
Ok, you got to this conclusion on your own.

To inform how your conclusion doesn't make sense. pardon my saying.

To believe in Allah, the free of all imperfections means to accept everything from Him, the commands, etc...
And worship, worship in Islam is not restricted to rituala only, etc.. It is everything we do and say, it must be in accordance to the reviliation. Some acts are more rewarding than others, etc.

Our understsaning of God comes from teh Qur'aan and the Sunna. Explain to me how can worshiping something with need be teh same as worshiping Allah who is free of need? We Muslims can trace back NOt only the Qur'an, but the hadeeths too, through the chain of narrations.

ANy questions regarding Kab'ah, please ask.
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Yeah... sure.

Before jumping to conclusions of your own, please don't be so ignorant of the facts, and try not to be so ignorant of me and what I mean when I type these things.

All you're doing is marketing your religion once more, like I said a few posts back. You probably won't believe me, but I have studied all major world religions inside out, including Islam. It does not appeal to me, because there is no evidence to back up it's assertions on an objective scale, as is the case with other religions. At this point, you're probably going to say I'm "ignorant", and start quoting Quran verses challenging my character and intellect (as I have seen done on this forum before), but the fact remains that Islam is no different than any other religion when it comes to proving itself.

Yes, I came to those conclusions on my own merit, but only through extensive study and review of the facts.
 
glacier456 said:
Sorry, but Muslims telling people they should worship Allah has absolutely no difference from someone else saying you should worship yourself, or some form of Pagan Gods. Objectively, all religions are in the exact same position when it comes to proving the existence of their said deities, and Islam is no exception. Neither is Christianity, or Hinduism, etc. Since their is no yardstick to measure up the claims of organized religion, unfortunately, leads me to take the claims of religious "fact" with a grain of salt.

Best regards.
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well this is Islamicboard and not chirstainty or hinduboard. All reigions are not in the exact same position - they claim radically different things.

There is a yardstick - the only problem is do you accept the yardstick or not.
 
glacier456 said:
Provide proof of your statement, and back up what you say. Otherwise you won't be taken seriously. Thanks.

Objective, scientific proof. Go.
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provide me objective scientific proof that your great,great,great,great,great,great,great,great, great,great,great,great,great,great grandmother existed otherwise you wont be taken seriously. Do you see the fallacy you trap yourself into.
 
Zafran said:
well this is Islamicboard and not chirstainty or hinduboard. All reigions are not in the exact position - they claim radically different things.

There is a yardstick - the only problem is do you accept the yardstick or not.
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Read what I say, and try not to cherry pick my posts. They ARE in the exact same position - when it comes to proving their assertions. All religions are on square 1, Islam included. Why do Muslims in this topic make such erroneous assertions, and then aggressively challenge the intellect of the posters who disagree with what they say here? To be taken seriously, you need to provide facts to back up your claims, not insult of people's character.

The only yardstick I can think of that even remotely applies is modern science. Yet every single time, I have seen Muslims and Christians alike twist the scriptures to fit scientific evidence. It should be the other way around, where scientific evidence matches the scriptures.
 
Zafran said:
provide me objective scientific proof that your great,great,great,great,great,great,great,great, great,great,great,great,great,great grandmother existed otherwise you wont be taken seriously. Do you see the fallacy you trap yourself into.
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Take the prejudice out of your brain and realize that your comparison is fallacy in itself. My great (X14) existed because I exist, and I can view my family genealogy online, and see my entire documented family tree (although not that far).

Your strawman argument is fallacy at best, and it's best not to humiliate yourself with such a weak argument. People are descended from their parents, and grandparents, and so forth. That is how the descending of a family tree works, and it has nothing to do with God, or the absolutely erroneous assertions made by Muslims when it comes to Islam and modern science. Try again. Thanks.
 
glacier456 said:
Neither is Christianity, or Hinduism, etc. Since their is no yardstick to measure up the claims of organized religion, unfortunately, leads me to take the claims of religious "fact" with a grain of salt.

Best regards.
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Please explain how you have come to the conclusion there is no "yardstick". Perhaps it is more correct to say you have not found the yardstick or if you have found it do not know how to use it. Remember, any measuring tool can only measure that which it is designed to measure and will never be more accurate than the skill of the user in his ability to interpret the results.

an aneroid barometer is a wonderful and accurate tool, but it is useless in the hands of a person who has no understanding of atmospheric pressure.
 
glacier456 said:
Read what I say, and try not to cherry pick my posts. They ARE in the exact same position - when it comes to proving their assertions. All religions are on square 1, Islam included. Why do Muslims in this topic make such erroneous assertions, and then aggressively challenge the intellect of the posters who disagree with what they say here? To be taken seriously, you need to provide facts to back up your claims, not insult of people's character.

The only yardstick I can think of that even remotely applies is modern science. Yet every single time, I have seen Muslims and Christians alike twist the scriptures to fit scientific evidence. It should be the other way around, where scientific evidence matches the scriptures.
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The criteria that the Quran provides has nothing to with scientfic evidence - most scientific theories suffer from from the problem of induction anyway.

For know I will await your own reply to this

provide me objective scientific proof that your great,great,great,great,great,great,great,great, great,great,great,great,great,great grandmother existed otherwise you wont be taken seriously. Do you see the fallacy you trap yourself into.
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The we'll talk about God.
 
glacier456 said:
Take the prejudice out of your brain and realize that your comparison is fallacy in itself. My great (X14) existed because I exist, and I can view my family genealogy online, and see my entire documented family tree (although not that far).

Your strawman argument is fallacy at best, and it's best not to humiliate yourself with such a weak argument. People are descended from their parents, and grandparents, and so forth. That is how the descending of a family tree works, and it has nothing to do with God, or the absolutely erroneous assertions made by Muslims when it comes to Islam and modern science. Try again. Thanks.
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Its not a a weak argument I'm taking your own theory and applying it back to you. You Didnt answer the question - provide me with some emperical evidence that your grandma times 100 existed. Not some geneology online or some document - If you can do that then why Cant people give examples from there own religious scriptures!

Prove your granny Times 100 empiraclly then we'll talk about God. If you cant do it does it mean she didnt exist?
 
Woodrow said:
Please explain how you have come to the conclusion there is no "yardstick". Perhaps it is more correct to say you have not found the yardstick or if you have found it do not know how to use it. Remember, any measuring tool can only measure that which it is designed to measure and will never be more accurate than the skill of the user in his ability to interpret the results.

an aneroid barometer is a wonderful and accurate tool, but it is useless in the hands of a person who has no understanding of atmospheric pressure.
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That is a fault and incorrect figurative comparison. What does a barometer have to do with Islam proving itself in the face of scrutiny? You're simply trying to manipulate my words to shift the burden of proof back to me, and that is because you can not answer my challenged adequately.
 
Zafran said:
The criteria that the Quran provides has nothing to with scientfic evidence - most scientific theories suffer from from the problem of induction anyway.

For know I will await your own reply to this



The we'll talk about God.
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You don't seem to be that smart of an individual, no offense. I responded to that post up above; go read it. Thanks.
 
Zafran said:
Its not a a weak argument I'm taking your own theory and applying it back to you. You Didnt answer the question - provide me with some emperical evidence that your grandma times 100 existed. Not some geneology online or some document - If you can do that then why Cant people give examples from there own religious scriptures!

Prove your granny Times 100 empiraclly then we'll talk about God. If you cant do it does it mean she didnt exist?
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Yes, I answered the question. Can you read?

It appears that you don't even know what empirical evidence is (you can't spell it, either :statisfie).

You're shifting the proof back to me because you know you can't answer my challenges, it is a common tactic amongst Muslims I notice. Someone criticizes your assertions of your religion, simply shift the blame to the other guy.

You won't be taken seriously until you answer my challenges, as I have still answered your ridiculous posts. Thanks.
 
glacier456 said:
Take the prejudice out of your brain and realize that your comparison is fallacy in itself. My great (X14) existed because I exist, and I can view my family genealogy online, and see my entire documented family tree (although not that far).

Your strawman argument is fallacy at best, and it's best not to humiliate yourself with such a weak argument. People are descended from their parents, and grandparents, and so forth. That is how the descending of a family tree works, and it has nothing to do with God, or the absolutely erroneous assertions made by Muslims when it comes to Islam and modern science. Try again. Thanks.
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Quite Contraire my dear chap,

You can not prove beyond all doubt that any of your non-living ancestors ever existed. You have forgotten a concept shared by atheists and some agnostics. Prove to me your family tree did not begin only 5 generations ago springing spontaneously from primordial sea slime and a random lightening bolt. If you accept the spontaneous formation of human life as fact you have to admit that as a possibility. Now show me you had a great(x14) grandmother and you are not the product of a science fair project gone wrong.
 
glacier456 said:
That is a fault and incorrect figurative comparison. What does a barometer have to do with Islam proving itself in the face of scrutiny? You're simply trying to manipulate my words to shift the burden of proof back to me, and that is because you can not answer my challenged adequately.
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you're the second member to take this thread off topic why not just open a new thread?
 
glacier456 said:
Yes, I answered the question. Can you read?

It appears that you don't even know what empirical evidence is (you can't spell it, either :statisfie).

You're shifting the proof back to me because you know you can't answer my challenges, it is a common tactic amongst Muslims I notice. Someone criticizes your assertions of your religion, simply shift the blame to the other guy.

You won't be taken seriously until you answer my challenges, as I have still answered your ridiculous posts. Thanks.
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seems like you cant prove your granny times 100 existed with empirical evidence - we are still waiting for you to do it.

Trust me your like the 100th person to come here with this fallacy - the rest were smart enough to know that this criteria doesnt work - you must be the first not to!
 
glacier456,

Before jumping to conclusions of your own, please don't be so ignorant of the facts, and try not to be so ignorant of me and what I mean when I type these things.
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Cofused. I did not mean disrespect with what I've said.

All you're doing is marketing your religion once more, like I said a few posts back
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Why are you here?
You probably won't believe me, but I have studied all major world religions inside out, including Islam
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From who? But uh... you seem very ignorant of Islam, sorry. You do not know our basic belives
! It does not appeal to me, because there is no evidence to back up it's assertions on an objective scale, as is the case with other religions.
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There is evidence that it has remained teh same since the time of Muhammas (pbuh). Since you studied all religions, what ist hat evidence? I mentioned it to you as well.
At this point, you're probably going to say I'm "ignorant", and start quoting Quran verses challenging my character and intellect (as I have seen done on this forum before), but the fact remains that Islam is no different than any other religion when it comes to proving itself.
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No, I do not think you're ignorant. Don't say that about yourself (smile). I can tell you of what Islam teaches. Therefore, how can you claim Muslims worship an idol, when it is a major sin, according to Islam , to do so.

I hope I was of help to you.
 
Woodrow said:
Quite Contraire my dear chap,

You can not prove beyond all doubt that any of your non-living ancestors ever existed. You have forgotten a concept shared by atheists and some agnostics. Prove to me your family tree did not begin only 5 generations ago springing spontaneously from primordial sea slime and a random lightening bolt. If you accept the spontaneous formation of human life as fact you have to admit that as a possibility. Now show me you had a great(x14) grandmother and you are not the product of a science fair project gone wrong.
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I can prove that I am not the result of a science fair gone wrong because it is fairly obvious if you study how humans are born. That was such a stupid assertion I can't even believe you just said that.

Another strawman argument from fallacy, shifting the blame back to me. How typical, at least I was right :)
 
glacier456 said:
That is a fault and incorrect figurative comparison. What does a barometer have to do with Islam proving itself in the face of scrutiny? You're simply trying to manipulate my words to shift the burden of proof back to me, and that is because you can not answer my challenged adequately.
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just pointing out to you that even if you were handed the measurement tool and the guide book to use it. You still would not recognize it, acknowledge it exists or understand how to interpret the results. It would be like telling a mole he is on a moutain top at 6,000 feet above sea level and he would say prove it and he would fail to see that a baraometer could be used to verify the elevation.

You need to know the measuring devices to use and how to use them to understand any emperical verification of religious belief. You would not recognize any such measuring tool and would be unable to understand the results of such.
 
Sister Unknown said:
glacier456,

Cofused. I did not mean disrespect with what I've said.

Why are you here? From who? But uh... you seem very ignorant of Islam, sorry. You do not know our basic belives There is evidence that it has remained teh same since the time of Muhammas (pbuh). Since you studied all religions, what ist hat evidence? I mentioned it to you as well. No, I do not think you're ignorant. Don't say that about yourself (smile). I can tell you of what Islam teaches. Therefore, how can you claim Muslims worship an idol, when it is a major sin, according to Islam , to do so.

I hope I was of help to you.
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And you are ignorant of me and my knowledge. I have studied Islam in schools, I have read hadiths, the entire Quran, been in mosques, debated with Muslims, etc. It's easy for you to claim I'm ignorant when you don't even know me and what I'm all about.

I have studied Islam inside out, it's followers, however, cannot provide evidence for the assertions they espouse.
 

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