Secondly, ok. I will change my debating style but only for here. I’m admittedly used to debating current events in politics and pop culture on IG reels and Yahoo articles. This is a much more serious discussion for me, so I can respect you putting me in my place a bit.
No worries. And thank you for adapting. its a much better discussion like this.
In my long history of internet debating and anecdotally speaking, it’s very rare when someone actually listens to a different viewpoint and truly considers it before replying. Especially if it’s Pro-Trump and Anti Trump having a discussion
. I’m totally neutral on him btw (hate Iran war as example) or anyone but I have developed a tendency to slip in some unneeded TDS insults to liberals along with legitimate debate points. I will avoid that here and from now on, I will give me the benefit of the doubt on your objectivity without me having to treat you like a 3rd grader.
Thank you
I’ll focus one thing at a time here too to really dig into hard truths and hear each other out.
Let’s unpack something bc we seem to agree on the academics of Islam.
yes we do.
I got censored for making the point but I’ll rephrase it. You and I both know the story of the 3 Sincere Muslims after Tabuk that were temporarily excommunicated bc they decided they weren’t going to risk their lives for their faith.We know of the followers of Moses banned to be he desert for 40 years for the same reason.
No I actually didn't knew to be honoust. I actually had to look it up. Thank you for pointing that out. I learned something today.
I get the story about Moses and his followers and why you picked that story as an example for this discussion. To illustrate what kind of people the followers of Moses were:
They witnessed the 7 different plagues over the Pharaoh and his country...they witnessed Moses splitting the sea and saving them from the evil hands of the Pharaoh...but even that wasn't enough for them...as soon as Moses left them to go up on the mountain, they decided to build a golden calf and started worshipping it. That kind of people were the followers of Moses.
But I don't think the story with the 3 muslims is a good example for this discussion because you cannot call the faith of those 3 muslims "empty".
If their faith were really empty, if they were lying, just pretending to be good muslims, for the show or whatever...Allah would not forgive them.
You cannot conceal anything from Allah...Not even what is inside your heart.
I therefore suspect you don't really know the Islamic view on why Allah created us the way we are.
Allah could create us as flawless creatures...like the angels...without our weaknesses, always obeying, always ready for Allahs command, never commiting a sin...but He didn't...and here's the reason:
There is an authentic hadith that says
The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) stated that if humans were completely sinless, Allah would sweep humanity out of existence and replace them with creatures who do commit sins and ask for forgiveness, allowing His attributes of mercy and pardon to manifest.
This hadith does not encourage or condone intentionally sinning, but rather emphasizes Allah's boundless mercy and the purpose of repentance.
We are just humans. Not sinning our entire lifes is technically impossible...so we eventually sin...sooner or later...
So, the value of humans lies in the fact that despite our shortcomings, we are capable of seeing our mistakes, realise we are wrong, repent and ask for forgiveness.
We are not made to never sin...we are made to repent WHENEVER we inevitably (sooner or later) do sin. That is our purpose. That is our value.
Allah doesn't expect us to be perfect.
Allah expect us just to strive for perfection, and whenever we come short, He expects repentance.
So therefore, I do not agree that the faith of the 3 muslims can be described as "empty"
As academics, the clear truth to face is if Mohammed and the Companions had a mosque today, you and I are getting booted for playing it safe.
Totally agree.
In your very rough estimation, what % of Muslims today do you think truly understand this about themselves?
Despite agreeing with you, I actually think this number is pretty high. countless times I heared imams, sheicks and hodjas pointing out in hutbas that the sahabi were the best of muslims...and even the best of us is nothing compared tp them, or something alike.
I am sure I am not the only one who heared that....
but I know what you mean...you mean that there are too many muslims, whenever they did something good occasionally, like giving the obligatory Zakat once in a year...they pat their own shoulder and think they are good muslims when they in reality just did the bare minimum to fulfill their duty.
I really do get what you are saying and I agree with you.
Bc the logical follow up question one should ask themselves, like I would, is what am I even doing here if I don’t truly have the right to call myself a Muslim??
Here is where you go off the track. Why would you not have the right to call yourself a muslim?
Like I said, it is not about your shortcomings...it is about realising and repenting...as long as you strive for excellence...and repent every time you come short...you are good.
Allah doesn't expect perfection from you.
Just call yourself a muslim and stop worrieing about it.
This is clear disbelief to me.
No it isn't. That is Shaytaan making you believe it is.
That’s my 25% I face the truth about.
Which is wrong. I am sorry for saying this, but this is just a stupid thought.
So let me get this straight...
Just you cannot be a perfect human being, you just stop your efforts for it totally, to eventually jeopardize your afterlife on purpose?
I want to know what % of Muslims you think struggle with this same sort of realization and I wonder how you think it’s accurate to view themselves as a 100% believer.
Nothing wrong to view yourself as a 100% believer. I sure consider myself as a 100% believer...I can swear on it...not a tiny spot of doubt in my heart...but do I consider myself a 100% perfect muslim?
absolutely not. I absolutely have my shortcomings, and my mistakes.
Being a 100% believer is totally something different than being the perfect muslim
There is not one single muslim on this Earth who goes to heaven purely relying on his deeds...not even our beloved prophet sas.
We all go to heaven because of Allahs mercy and generousity.
I don’t need to ask myself that question about God bc I know my short comings. I know if I get raised and learn it’s all true 100%, my deeds on Earth will be COMPLETELY different.
I really don’t consider anything about Satan bc the worst kind of people in this world to me are those that blame their failures on someone else. To me, it shows weakness of soul and character, so there’s no way I’m blaming anyone except myself when I’m in front of God.
True. the worst kind of people in this world are those that blame their failures on someone else. I agree on that part.
Of course we are responsable for our own poor choices...we are eventually the ones who chose for it of course...but it is not true that the devil had no part in it...you cannot say he is innocent.
Your bad choice does not come out of the blue...it can have two sources...either from your nafs, which is your ego, or it comes from the devil.
Both need to be resisted...but like I already said, we humans are weak, and we occasionally tend to be seduced from one of those voices which result in making bad decisions.
The point here is not blaming someone else for our bad decisions...the point is realizing that we did something wrong, and repent and ask for forgiveness on time.
to emphasize this last point how important it is:
There are certain time slots in a day, typically the last few hours of the night where Allah just waits for your repentance.
Here is the hadith:
Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) stated that during this final portion of the night, Allah descends to the lowest heaven and asks: "Who will call upon Me, that I may answer him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?"
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