Politics and Islam

[Ümit]

If you want to know the truth about God, go to a mirror and talk to him. Make sure you know verse 4:75 of the Quran talking about the weakest on Earth crying out for a protector. Islam point blank says a Muslim is to be that protector. There’s no debate in that.

I am definitely aware of that verse. I do not need a mirror to talk to God...and I definitely agree with you on this.

Ask your God this. Say God, when I stand before you, I wish for you to look at me with great pride.

Not going to ask for that, because that is way beyond my expectations...I am definitely not that great. I just want Allah to be pleased with me, even tough I am a failure.

There is a lot to this religion of Islam with all the acts of devotion and things we do at the mosque and also the added responsibility of being the protector of the weakest on Earth. I can’t take both of these things on, so I wish to know which path would please you more.

that is a lame excuse. The Quran orders us to do both...so you do both, not only the one or the other. You do not want to go to Palestine either, so you are using this lame excuse for "I can't do both". You are just as empty as all the other muslims...there really is no difference.
If betting wasn't haram, I would bet all my money that you wouldn't go to Palestine even if you got your exemption of the 5 pillars. (to spice up the debate even more)

But I am not judging you. Shaytaan is portaying us that fake illusion and excuses like
-I can't do both
-It is so far away
-I wouldn't make a difference anyways
-I wouldn't be able to reach it
etc. etc.

But I do not think those muslims are lying...they just lack the right motivation because of the Shaytaan.
With the right motivation, they definitely could move mountains like you said.
Let me give you a recent example:
remember the 2016 Turkish coup d'état attempt
Erdogan announced there was a coup going on in Turkey, and that all civilians should go outside to prevent it.
So men, fathers, husbands, brothers, sons, but also mothers, wives and daughters said farewell to their loved ones, armed themselves with sticks and stones, with kitchen knives of whatever they could find and hit the streets en masse to face those evil soldiers.
300 people got killed on that day, but they eventually reached those tanks...clogged their exhaust pipes with their clothes so the tanks could function no more and threw the soldiers off the bosphorus bridge.

I do admit that this was more of a political issue and not a religious one. They just needed to defend their country....but I am sure they would do the same if their religion was threatened like that.
So again, I do not think those people are lying.

1) I can vow to you that I will never miss a prayer at the mosque until the day I die and I will ace all of the 5 Pillars without failure. But bc of everything else I have going on if life, please release me from this responsibility of being the protector of people in the Congo. It’s just too much.

You cannot ask this from God. God ordered you to do both...so you do both. He knows you better than you know yourself.

2) I can go and risk my life and welfare to try to make sure those people aren’t suffering generation after generation. But if I do this God, I think I will be offering something very great

No you are not. you just fullfill your duty. Absurd to think that you are offering something very great.
All our prophets offered something very great to God, and not single one of them boasted about it like you do about something you didn't even offer yet.
So, please cut it out.

and I would ask that you would release me from the burden of all the acts of devotion and time spent in the mosque. I’m not going to pray because you should know I sincerely believe bc I am risking my life and welfare for your sake.

No you are not. You got your life and welfare from God...so you are giving it back if everything goes downhill...
So you can't ask this from God...you need to buckle up and do both...so stop whining about it.

“God, I can only do either one of these two things and not any combination of both. I need you to tell me which path I should take to make you most proud when I stand before you”

Not one, not the other. both...that is asked from you.

Don’t give me a cowardly politician answer .
If you ask God to answer this question, he will answer it for you. Tell me what you think your God says.

I know I am just as guilty as you. Those kids suffer over there daily, and I am here safe in my room staring at my monitor comfortly.
I cannot ask Allah this question...because I know I can't abandon one ruling in order to follow the other correctly.

A better thing to ask for is strength to do both. That would be a much better dua.
Tell me what you think Allah says about that. Don't give me a cowardly answer.

 

[Dpaul54]

Umit,

Before I reply to anything else, understand my attack in on how Islam is practiced today and not Islam itself. I’m saying the emptiness is in the practice but my genuine belief is that if you invented a God and religion, you couldn’t create something more meaningful than what Islam ACTUALLY teaches.

That’s why I don’t even say Allah instead of God because I feel today he’s essentially been butchered to make him more like Jesus (which is not good).

 

[Dpaul54]

Secondly, ok. I will change my debating style but only for here. I’m admittedly used to debating current events in politics and pop culture on IG reels and Yahoo articles. This is a much more serious discussion for me, so I can respect you putting me in my place a bit.

In my long history of internet debating and anecdotally speaking, it’s very rare when someone actually listens to a different viewpoint and truly considers it before replying. Especially if it’s Pro-Trump and Anti Trump having a discussion . I’m totally neutral on him btw (hate Iran war as example) or anyone but I have developed a tendency to slip in some unneeded TDS insults to liberals along with legitimate debate points. I will avoid that here and from now on, I will give me the benefit of the doubt on your objectivity without me having to treat you like a 3rd grader.

I’ll focus one thing at a time here too to really dig into hard truths and hear each other out.

Let’s unpack something bc we seem to agree on the academics of Islam. I got censored for making the point but I’ll rephrase it. You and I both know the story of the 3 Sincere Muslims after Tabuk that were temporarily excommunicated bc they decided they weren’t going to risk their lives for their faith. We know of the followers of Moses banned to be he desert for 40 years for the same reason. As academics, the clear truth to face is if Mohammed and the Companions had a mosque today, you and I are getting booted for playing it safe. In your very rough estimation, what % of Muslims today do you think truly understand this about themselves?

Bc the logical follow up question one should ask themselves, like I would, is what am I even doing here if I don’t truly have the right to call myself a Muslim?? This is clear disbelief to me. That’s my 25% I face the truth about. I want to know what % of Muslims you think struggle with this same sort of realization and I wonder how you think it’s accurate to view themselves as a 100% believer.

I don’t need to ask myself that question about God bc I know my short comings. I know if I get raised and learn it’s all true 100%, my deeds on Earth will be COMPLETELY different.

I really don’t consider anything about Satan bc the worst kind of people in this world to me are those that blame their failures on someone else. To me, it shows weakness of soul and character, so there’s no way I’m blaming anyone except myself when I’m in front of God.

 

[Ümit]

Umit,

Before I reply to anything else, understand my attack in on how Islam is practiced today and not Islam itself.

OK. But that means that we are in agreement. I also share this opinion with you that in general people don't practice their religion as they supposed to.

I’m saying the emptiness is in the practice but my genuine belief is that if you invented a God and religion, you couldn’t create something more meaningful than what Islam ACTUALLY teaches.

Which is impossible...but yeah, I understand what you are saying.

That’s why I don’t even say Allah instead of God because I feel today he’s essentially been butchered to make him more like Jesus (which is not good).

we are not Jews...so we are not afraid of speaking out Allahs name.

Let me tell you why you should say Allah and not God:
Allah is just the Arabic word for God. Christians and Jews who live in Arabic countries also use the word Allah. The even use the phrase "Allahü ekber", which just means "God is great"
But still, there is a crucial difference between the words "God" and "Allah".
"God" can be used for other meanings, like the god of nature, the god of the sea, the god of music, the god of football.
"God" can be plural, multiple Gods, the God of Gods.

"Allah" however, only has one meaning. It ALWAYS refers to the most high, the eternal one and only God. it can mean nothing else. It cannot be plural.

So take my advise, don't worry about who butchered which God and how...and just prefer to say "Allah" over "God".

 

[Ümit]

Secondly, ok. I will change my debating style but only for here. I’m admittedly used to debating current events in politics and pop culture on IG reels and Yahoo articles. This is a much more serious discussion for me, so I can respect you putting me in my place a bit.

No worries. And thank you for adapting. its a much better discussion like this.

In my long history of internet debating and anecdotally speaking, it’s very rare when someone actually listens to a different viewpoint and truly considers it before replying. Especially if it’s Pro-Trump and Anti Trump having a discussion . I’m totally neutral on him btw (hate Iran war as example) or anyone but I have developed a tendency to slip in some unneeded TDS insults to liberals along with legitimate debate points. I will avoid that here and from now on, I will give me the benefit of the doubt on your objectivity without me having to treat you like a 3rd grader.

Thank you

I’ll focus one thing at a time here too to really dig into hard truths and hear each other out.

Let’s unpack something bc we seem to agree on the academics of Islam.

yes we do.

I got censored for making the point but I’ll rephrase it. You and I both know the story of the 3 Sincere Muslims after Tabuk that were temporarily excommunicated bc they decided they weren’t going to risk their lives for their faith.We know of the followers of Moses banned to be he desert for 40 years for the same reason.

No I actually didn't knew to be honoust. I actually had to look it up. Thank you for pointing that out. I learned something today.
I get the story about Moses and his followers and why you picked that story as an example for this discussion. To illustrate what kind of people the followers of Moses were:
They witnessed the 7 different plagues over the Pharaoh and his country...they witnessed Moses splitting the sea and saving them from the evil hands of the Pharaoh...but even that wasn't enough for them...as soon as Moses left them to go up on the mountain, they decided to build a golden calf and started worshipping it. That kind of people were the followers of Moses.

But I don't think the story with the 3 muslims is a good example for this discussion because you cannot call the faith of those 3 muslims "empty".
If their faith were really empty, if they were lying, just pretending to be good muslims, for the show or whatever...Allah would not forgive them.
You cannot conceal anything from Allah...Not even what is inside your heart.

I therefore suspect you don't really know the Islamic view on why Allah created us the way we are.
Allah could create us as flawless creatures...like the angels...without our weaknesses, always obeying, always ready for Allahs command, never commiting a sin...but He didn't...and here's the reason:
There is an authentic hadith that says

The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) stated that if humans were completely sinless, Allah would sweep humanity out of existence and replace them with creatures who do commit sins and ask for forgiveness, allowing His attributes of mercy and pardon to manifest.

This hadith does not encourage or condone intentionally sinning, but rather emphasizes Allah's boundless mercy and the purpose of repentance.
We are just humans. Not sinning our entire lifes is technically impossible...so we eventually sin...sooner or later...
So, the value of humans lies in the fact that despite our shortcomings, we are capable of seeing our mistakes, realise we are wrong, repent and ask for forgiveness.
We are not made to never sin...we are made to repent WHENEVER we inevitably (sooner or later) do sin. That is our purpose. That is our value.
Allah doesn't expect us to be perfect.
Allah expect us just to strive for perfection, and whenever we come short, He expects repentance.
So therefore, I do not agree that the faith of the 3 muslims can be described as "empty"

As academics, the clear truth to face is if Mohammed and the Companions had a mosque today, you and I are getting booted for playing it safe.

Totally agree.

In your very rough estimation, what % of Muslims today do you think truly understand this about themselves?

Despite agreeing with you, I actually think this number is pretty high. countless times I heared imams, sheicks and hodjas pointing out in hutbas that the sahabi were the best of muslims...and even the best of us is nothing compared tp them, or something alike.
I am sure I am not the only one who heared that....
but I know what you mean...you mean that there are too many muslims, whenever they did something good occasionally, like giving the obligatory Zakat once in a year...they pat their own shoulder and think they are good muslims when they in reality just did the bare minimum to fulfill their duty.
I really do get what you are saying and I agree with you.

Bc the logical follow up question one should ask themselves, like I would, is what am I even doing here if I don’t truly have the right to call myself a Muslim??

Here is where you go off the track. Why would you not have the right to call yourself a muslim?
Like I said, it is not about your shortcomings...it is about realising and repenting...as long as you strive for excellence...and repent every time you come short...you are good.
Allah doesn't expect perfection from you.
Just call yourself a muslim and stop worrieing about it.

This is clear disbelief to me.

No it isn't. That is Shaytaan making you believe it is.

That’s my 25% I face the truth about.

Which is wrong. I am sorry for saying this, but this is just a stupid thought.
So let me get this straight...
Just you cannot be a perfect human being, you just stop your efforts for it totally, to eventually jeopardize your afterlife on purpose?

I want to know what % of Muslims you think struggle with this same sort of realization and I wonder how you think it’s accurate to view themselves as a 100% believer.

Nothing wrong to view yourself as a 100% believer. I sure consider myself as a 100% believer...I can swear on it...not a tiny spot of doubt in my heart...but do I consider myself a 100% perfect muslim?
absolutely not. I absolutely have my shortcomings, and my mistakes.
Being a 100% believer is totally something different than being the perfect muslim

There is not one single muslim on this Earth who goes to heaven purely relying on his deeds...not even our beloved prophet sas.
We all go to heaven because of Allahs mercy and generousity.

I don’t need to ask myself that question about God bc I know my short comings. I know if I get raised and learn it’s all true 100%, my deeds on Earth will be COMPLETELY different.

I really don’t consider anything about Satan bc the worst kind of people in this world to me are those that blame their failures on someone else. To me, it shows weakness of soul and character, so there’s no way I’m blaming anyone except myself when I’m in front of God.

True. the worst kind of people in this world are those that blame their failures on someone else. I agree on that part.
Of course we are responsable for our own poor choices...we are eventually the ones who chose for it of course...but it is not true that the devil had no part in it...you cannot say he is innocent.

Your bad choice does not come out of the blue...it can have two sources...either from your nafs, which is your ego, or it comes from the devil.
Both need to be resisted...but like I already said, we humans are weak, and we occasionally tend to be seduced from one of those voices which result in making bad decisions.
The point here is not blaming someone else for our bad decisions...the point is realizing that we did something wrong, and repent and ask for forgiveness on time.

to emphasize this last point how important it is:
There are certain time slots in a day, typically the last few hours of the night where Allah just waits for your repentance.
Here is the hadith:

Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) stated that during this final portion of the night, Allah descends to the lowest heaven and asks: "Who will call upon Me, that I may answer him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?"

 

[Dpaul54]

Hmm. Let me clarify about the story of the 3 Muslims and Moses’ followers.

The 3 Sincere Muslims were very respected at the time and thought of as pious Muslims. If they were in the mosque today, they’d be considered with the best of believers. But they decided during the Tabuk events, that life was going good for them and they didn’t want to risk their lives with the other Muslims. They were honest to Mohammed about this while hypocrites and those weak in faith made fake excuses. They loved Allah and Mohammed. But.. they were excommunicated anyway without any end date or guarantee they could ever come back. After months of shame, total isolation, and regret/repentance, they were allowed back.

What the story definitely proves, besides just verses in the Quran talking about struggle being required in Islam, is that you’re not allowed to practice Islam and abandon the responsibility of protecting the weak. You’d be tossed from the mosque and its black-and-white. Not religious interpretation.

The story of the followers of Moses in the Quran that I was referring to, meant to highlight they believed in Moses and his God, they did all the acts of devotion he asked of them, they abstained from what he told them to, and they were believers. But then God asked them to enter a city and free it from its tyrants, they told Moses they wouldn’t join him for that and for Moses and his God to do it and they would cheer them on. So they were banished to the desert for 40 years.

So again, it’s an example of insincerity in faith. It highlights the difference between a church and what a mosque is supposed to be and what Islam is supposed to be.

The mosque today is indistinguishable from a church in terms of level of sincerity but everyone in both buildings believe in God 100%. They don’t. They’re essentially hedging their bets. As I said at the start, there is an enormous gravity in God and an afterlife that most aren’t able to fathom.

 

[Dpaul54]

Umit,

I’m not treating you like a 3rd grader and asking you to be objective . But I just want you to consider a scenario.

You die tomorrow somehow (not to be morbid) and now your place in all of your eternity is determined by what you did here. Now you understand the truth and gravity of this afterlife 100%.

If you had a chance to go back, do you think your deeds on Earth would be the same? If they’d change, why aren’t you doing those deeds now?

You have tossed some shots my way about your impression of me and I took them in stride and there was even some truth in them .

But I’ll fire back now and say I think you need to man up and understand you have doubt in your faith. As I said, you can’t abandon parts of Islam that are literally absolutely required and then say no one is perfect. That excuse is for when you commit a random sex act, get drunk, steal something one time, etc

 

[Dpaul54]

I’ll make a side point as say I never leaned Arabic. I tried a couple times but it was sssooo hard from English . Having a career and single dad duties didn’t make it easier. I’m in Tunisia now working remotely and trying to find a wife. Here or Morocco, inshallah and maybe they’ll help me learn Arabic.

I read the good translations though with Arabic script too and all the footnotes talking about the circumstances behind verses.

Anyways, maybe this is even a plus though bc it seems many people just caught up in weeping from reading the Quran, like it’s beautiful poetry and not really trying to make sense of powerful stories in there. Also, one of the main themes on the Quran is pointing out how everything about Mohammed’s story is just an exact copy of the story of the Prophets before him. Yet somehow, mainstream Muslims today when Islam and it’s God are getting publicly attacked, can’t answer that there is nothing different about Mohammed and his God than what you’ll find in the Bible.

Instead, they try to make excuses for anything people find offensive (like babies getting killed in Egypt or floods/stones wiping out people that rejected their Messenger isn’t in the Bible) and act like Allah is a God just like Jesus and there must be a mistake in the Bible/Quran about who God is.

 

[Ümit]

Hmm. Let me clarify about the story of the 3 Muslims and Moses’ followers.

The 3 Sincere Muslims were very respected at the time and thought of as pious Muslims. If they were in the mosque today, they’d be considered with the best of believers.

indeed they were.

But they decided during the Tabuk events, that life was going good for them and they didn’t want to risk their lives with the other Muslims. They were honest to Mohammed about this

agreed

while hypocrites and those weak in faith made fake excuses.

remember this part. we'll get back to this later on.

They loved Allah and Mohammed. But.. they were excommunicated anyway without any end date or guarantee they could ever come back. After months of shame, total isolation, and regret/repentance, they were allowed back.

Why were they allowed back? Because Allah revealed a verse that allowed them back...verse 9:118 to be exactly:

And ˹Allah has also turned in mercy to˺ the three who had remained behind, ˹whose guilt distressed them˺ until the earth, despite its vastness, seemed to close in on them, and their souls were torn in anguish. They knew there was no refuge from Allah except in Him. Then He turned to them in mercy so that they might repent. Surely Allah ˹alone˺ is the Accepter of Repentance, Most Merciful.

What the story definitely proves, besides just verses in the Quran talking about struggle being required in Islam, is that you’re not allowed to practice Islam and abandon the responsibility of protecting the weak.

You are definitely not allowed to abandon that responsibility. You are absolutely right...as a matter of command...you are not allowed to abandon any command of God...if you do, you will face consequences...just like these three in this example.

You’d be tossed from the mosque and its black-and-white. Not religious interpretation.

Its literally in the Quran. how is it not a religious interpretation?

However, that is not the complete lesson we take from this story, is it?
remember this part?

while hypocrites and those weak in faith made fake excuses.

Well, how do we know those were hypocites with fake excuses? and more important...did the Prophet sas knew they were making fake excuses at the time they were making it? (propably he did).
So, if this was so black and white...why did those hypocrites not suffer the same consequences as the three sincere muslims?
I honoustly don't know, because I do not know the story, but there is definitely more to it than the black and white view you are portraying here.

The Prophet sas definitely knew about their fake excuses, and if he didn't Allah would definitely reveal that just like Allah revealed that the 3 muslims need to be taken back.

I will read more into it, and return back at you when I find more.

The story of the followers of Moses in the Quran that I was referring to, meant to highlight they believed in Moses and his God, they did all the acts of devotion he asked of them, they abstained from what he told them to, and they were believers. But then God asked them to enter a city and free it from its tyrants, they told Moses they wouldn’t join him for that and for Moses and his God to do it and they would cheer them on. So they were banished to the desert for 40 years.

Yes, that is correct.

So again, it’s an example of insincerity in faith. It highlights the difference between a church and what a mosque is supposed to be and what Islam is supposed to be.

I dont know what you mean with this.

The mosque today is indistinguishable from a church in terms of level of sincerity but everyone in both buildings believe in God 100%. They don’t. They’re essentially hedging their bets.

How can you say that? you cannot look into their hearts.

As I said at the start, there is an enormous gravity in God and an afterlife that most aren’t able to fathom.

 

[Ümit]

Umit,

I’m not treating you like a 3rd grader and asking you to be objective . But I just want you to consider a scenario.

I always try to be as objective as possible. don't worry about that.

You die tomorrow somehow (not to be morbid) and now your place in all of your eternity is determined by what you did here. Now you understand the truth and gravity of this afterlife 100%.

yes

If you had a chance to go back, do you think your deeds on Earth would be the same?

no of course not.

If they’d change, why aren’t you doing those deeds now?

That is a very good question.

I really have no good excuse for that. you are absolutely right.

I guess, Allah has created us weak, and this world and Satan can sometimes very tempting and influential.
Satan benefits from your weak moments and convinces you to wander off the right path.
Of course he is not the only one to blame...it is the individual eventually who is making the choice itself.

But if I would die, I would see what I am missing out on in the afterlife...right now, you think like "If I make it into heaven, the rest is not important"...
But if I would see how much difference it would make if I changes even the littlest things...for example how much one simple smile can make in difference of rewards...I would definitely change a lot...everyone would...I am pretty sure of that.

You have tossed some shots my way about your impression of me and I took them in stride and there was even some truth in them .

But I’ll fire back now and say I think you need to man up and understand you have doubt in your faith. As I said, you can’t abandon parts of Islam that are literally absolutely required and then say no one is perfect. That excuse is for when you commit a random sex act, get drunk, steal something one time, etc

That is nonsense. you think stealing, sex acts, etc is not mentioned in the Quran? you think that is not a direct comment from Allah?
There is no difference in whether you go against Allahs command when it comes to participating in wars or going against Allahs command in other ways like sex act, stealing etc....maybe in severity can be different...but that is it.

Besides, how can you say I have doubt in my faith?
you demanded objectivity from me...let us be objective and compare this with an example closer to home:
I assume you are a good father...and you love your child more than anything else in the world.
If I would ask you "would you die for your child?"
Probably your immediate answer would be "of course"

But if we view the situation through your lens a more proper answer would be "I guess we never know, untill that day really comes"
Because you never know whether you truly would have the guts to give your life for that of your child or that you will chicken out at the very last second.

But that is not the true way to see it, is it? you cannot look into the future...you look at now, and right now, there is not a shadow of a doubt in your heart that you would give your life for your kid.

 

[Ümit]

I’ll make a side point as say I never leaned Arabic. I tried a couple times but it was sssooo hard from English . Having a career and single dad duties didn’t make it easier. I’m in Tunisia now working remotely and trying to find a wife. Here or Morocco, inshallah and maybe they’ll help me learn Arabic.

I read the good translations though with Arabic script too and all the footnotes talking about the circumstances behind verses.

very good

Anyways, maybe this is even a plus though bc it seems many people just caught up in weeping from reading the Quran, like it’s beautiful poetry and not really trying to make sense of powerful stories in there. Also, one of the main themes on the Quran is pointing out how everything about Mohammed’s story is just an exact copy of the story of the Prophets before him.

How is that a suprise? The source of those stories is literally the same. They are not exact copies though. Mohammad sas did not just copy the stories from the Bible of the Thora.
The Quran corrects the mistake in the same stories.
If Mohammad sas just copied the stories...he would also copy the mistakes with it...but that doesn't happen.

Yet somehow, mainstream Muslims today when Islam and it’s God are getting publicly attacked, can’t answer that there is nothing different about Mohammed and his God than what you’ll find in the Bible.

we do not reject the whole Bible...we just say, there is truth in it, but because of the corruption in it, we can't be sure which part really comes from God and which part is man-made.

Instead, they try to make excuses for anything people find offensive (like babies getting killed in Egypt or floods/stones wiping out people that rejected their Messenger isn’t in the Bible) and act like Allah is a God just like Jesus and there must be a mistake in the Bible/Quran about who God is.

 

[Dpaul54]

Besides, how can you say I have doubt in my faith?
you demanded objectivity from me...let us be objective and compare this with an example closer to home:
I assume you are a good father...and you love your child more than anything else in the world.
If I would ask you "would you die for your child?"
Probably your immediate answer would be "of course"

But if we view the situation through your lens a more proper answer would be "I guess we never know, untill that day really comes"
Because you never know whether you truly would have the guts to give your life for that of your child or that you will chicken out at the very last second.

But that is not the true way to see it, is it? you cannot look into the future...you look at now, and right now, there is not a shadow of a doubt in your heart that you would give your life for your kid.

It’s actually very important to understand why your analogy about my son totally fails. I would guess (thought admittedly not know) that this is something that throws off a LOT of Muslims.

I’m just telling you Islam 101 that gets lost in the shuffle. You can’t just say things are true like the other religions. If you try to claim at the time of judgement that you were willing to trade this life for the next, the next question is what proof can you offer? This is going to cook just about everyone and I’m really not sure they understand that reality.

To me, I see it as Muslims building a religious foundation based on the beauty of their acts of devotion in this world like the other religions. Instead of a foundation of stone like the Prophets/followers had, it’s a castle of playing cards that’s pleasing to look at in this world, like it’s an accomplishment.

So when these Muslims get to God, they have their book in their right hand and they are feeling certain they have a great reward coming for what they did at the mosque. But God has a paper weight that’s the struggle he expected them to make like the Prophets/followers before them. When he places this on top of the castle of cards, it collapses to a useless pile of rubble and at that moment, the Muslim realizes his whole life/religion on Earth was a lie and he was blind to Islam in this world and his religion was like a Christians.

Now admittedly, I of course I do not know how this meeting will go. But I am saying, combined with all the other proofs I mentioned, it would not hurt to view this as a possibility. I think it’s wise to understand how bad things can go. It’s like when I run a business, you always expect the worst and hope for the best. Especially when you’re taking about your place in all of ETERNITY, all possibilities should be considered.

 

[Dpaul54]

That is nonsense. you think stealing, sex acts, etc is not mentioned in the Quran? you think that is not a direct comment from Allah?
There is no difference in whether you go against Allahs command when it comes to participating in wars or going against Allahs command in other ways like sex act, stealing etc....maybe in severity can be different...but that is it.

There’s absolutely a very easy difference to understand. When you commit a sin, I would imagine you don’t keep doing it. You redeem yourself over time to balance out your scale.

When you deny the struggle part, you’re essentially like those 3 Sincere Muslims but you never repent or see fault in yourself and you die while denying that part of your religion to the very end.

In my very clear understanding of what is written, never missing a single item of the 5 Pillars will not make up for this. Those good deeds would certainly make up for a lot of small sins but abandoning the struggle part. I’m really not sure how someone can say it’s not clear as day.

I think there’s a real lack of reconciliation in the way Islam is taught today. It’s like the Hadith that says prayer is the most beloved thing to Allah but also as it states clearly in the Quran, the prayers aren’t even accepted when you’re not accepting the struggle. So it’s clear the prayer of someone that accepts the struggle is the thing he likes the most. Also, the Hadiths like I’ll do the 5 Pillars and nothing more and the person will go to heaven as a Muslim. But again, that violates Islam 101 as it directly contradicts what’s stated clearly in the Quran and so it really should be read like the previous Hadith example I gave. You can also pound away on all the Hadiths talking about all the rewards for all the items in the 5 Pillars but again, that doesn’t get to overrule what’s clearly stated in the Quran. It’s really easy to just get misled with an avalanche of Hadith talking about all the rewards for the acts of devotion but the Quran is clear. God knows best, I guess.

 

[Dpaul54]

How is that a suprise? The source of those stories is literally the same. They are not exact copies though. Mohammad sas did not just copy the stories from the Bible of the Thora.
The Quran corrects the mistake in the same stories.
If Mohammad sas just copied the stories...he would also copy the mistakes with it...but that doesn't happen.

Sorry, I was not clear of Mohammed’s story being a copy of previous Prophets. This is actually a case of that 75% shining through. Side note, if I get a Muslim wife I think it’ll cut into that other 25% for sure, inshallah. Not 100% but closer

Let me tell you the genuine truth from the bottom of my heart. I get SO ANGRY in my heart for God’s sake when at the leaders of the Muslims today when their religion and God are getting publicly ridiculed as deficient, say, “No. Our God is just like your God/Religion (Jesus)”. Like there’s something wrong with the God in Quran/Bible. I really think it’s something very shameful and hurtful for God and I really lose all respect for the Muslim establishment because of that and so I openly question their belief for that reason. Can you imagine standing before God and being guilty of not being able to defend him and his religion on Earth???

There is ZERO different in the story of Mohammed/his followers than earlier Prophets. War is mentioned 400+ times in the Bible. Almost all Prophets were weak to start like Mohammed and their followers had to be subjected to the same struggles for the sake of their religion as Mohammed’s followers (tortured, starved, outcast)

Politics/Political action was infused with religion for ALL Prophets. It was always the way. The struggle the Prophets all faced was bc their message was rejected.

[Moderator’s comment: content removed - when speaking about Prophets please have some respect]

So why do Muslim have to also take parts of their religion out or hide it when then teach it. Like on my sons life in hurts my soul for God to see it. Terrorists can’t win and take away all the beauty and truth in Islam.

Anyways, we’ll see if this makes in past the censors here. Probably not lol

 

[Dpaul54]

Sorry, I was not clear of Mohammed’s story being a copy of previous Prophets. This is actually a case of that 75% shining through. Side note, if I get a Muslim wife I think it’ll cut into that other 25% for sure, inshallah. Not 100% but closer

Let me tell you the genuine truth from the bottom of my heart. I get SO ANGRY in my heart for God’s sake when at the leaders of the Muslims today when their religion and God are getting publicly ridiculed as deficient, say, “No. Our God is just like your God/Religion (Jesus)”. Like there’s something wrong with the God in Quran/Bible. I really think it’s something very shameful and hurtful for God and I really lose all respect for the Muslim establishment because of that and so I openly question their belief for that reason. Can you imagine standing before God and being guilty of not being able to defend him and his religion on Earth???

There is ZERO different in the story of Mohammed/his followers than earlier Prophets. War is mentioned 400+ times in the Bible. Almost all Prophets were weak to start like Mohammed and their followers had to be subjected to the same struggles for the sake of their religion as Mohammed’s followers (tortured, starved, outcast)

Politics/Political action was infused with religion for ALL Prophets. It was always the way. The struggle the Prophets all faced was bc their message was rejected.

[Moderator’s comment: content removed - when speaking about Prophets please have some respect]

So why do Muslim have to also take parts of their religion out or hide it when then teach it. Like on my sons life in hurts my soul for God to see it. Terrorists can’t win and take away all the beauty and truth in Islam.

Anyways, we’ll see if this makes in past the censors here. Probably not lol

My Moderator friend, I have respect. I just believe it’s extremely important to understand Islam as a non-Muslim. Your God doesn’t like zealots.

You have to be able to explain Islam to a non-Muslim. You can’t just rely on people that are blinded by love for Islam.

What are the facts? What does it really teach? Are you going to sit here and deny that if you go into any mosque, they will not abandon important parts of Islam from their teachings, or hide it behind their backs? If someone attacks their religion, will they not toss it under the bus and pretend Islam is just like Christianity?

If you have courage, answer those questions? Then talk to me about respect for God and his religion.

 

[Dpaul54]

A religion can’t be the “religion of truth” just because the preacher tells you it is. A priest will tell you his religion is the religion of the truth.

Religion of truth should mean it makes sense. If there is a God, this is who God should be. If God has a religion, this is what it should be about.

Truth should be universal and undeniable and not require you to first need faith in the religion to see the truth in it.

 

[Dpaul54]

Islam is essentially now regulated to the time before the conversion of Hamza and Umar.

People have to hide their faith and parts of their religion. Anyone that wants to advance the cause has to operate in the shadows.

Not to be insulting but this is absolute craziness going on. Does anyone read IG reels and comments on news articles??? Like all the non-Muslims (outside of very Far Right) are completely against what Israel is doing right now. Normal everyday people are totally against it. Not just the Left wing wokesters. They are out of control to anyone with a bit of objective sense.

So again, not to be insulting, but besides 1.5 BILLION Muslims, there’s genuine widespread support there for the taking to stop this madness and come up with a better solution. No violence needed, just togetherness, organization, and direction for Muslim leadership. Like how can you love Islam and not be very angry about this??

[comment removed by moderator]

I couldn’t actually ever get close to real belief because I couldn’t understand how God could abandon those people in places like Sub-Saharan Africa for generation after generation. What sort of God is this? So I guess if it’s true Allah guides people to Islam, he let me understand Islam my own way because I found the answer.

God has not abandoned anyone on this earth and his heart hurts for all those that suffer. He appointed the Muslims to be their protector and guardians. The people suffer because Muslims abandoned this God of the Quran/Bible and this duty a long time ago.

They said, we don’t want to have to climb this steep hill the Prophets and their followers had to climb before us. We don’t want this God of the Prophets that asks us for such a huge sacrifice that we should have to risk our lives for our religion. We want to have a God and religion like the other people on Earth have.

They said, we just need to do these 5 Pillars and the stuff we do at the mosque. Follow Sunnah and we are the Muslims and when we go heaven, the VIP section is reserved for us. So Islam became a religion of entitlement and not of selflessness and beauty. The other religions abandoned the religion of the Prophets in the same way.

 

[Muhammad]

Hello Dpaul54,

We are familiar with explaining Islam to non-Muslims. But we don't tolerate disrespectful remarks under the guise of trying to 'understand Islam'. Each person has control over their choice of words and analogies, and if you are a sincere seeker of truth you will have no issue with wording your posts appropriately.

I assume what you are referring to in your question is the following:

Let’s unpack something bc we seem to agree on the academics of Islam. I got censored for making the point but I’ll rephrase it. You and I both know the story of the 3 Sincere Muslims after Tabuk that were temporarily excommunicated bc they decided they weren’t going to risk their lives for their faith. We know of the followers of Moses banned to be he desert for 40 years for the same reason. As academics, the clear truth to face is if Mohammed and the Companions had a mosque today, you and I are getting booted for playing it safe. In your very rough estimation, what % of Muslims today do you think truly understand this about themselves?

Bc the logical follow up question one should ask themselves, like I would, is what am I even doing here if I don’t truly have the right to call myself a Muslim?? This is clear disbelief to me. That’s my 25% I face the truth about. I want to know what % of Muslims you think struggle with this same sort of realization and I wonder how you think it’s accurate to view themselves as a 100% believer.

The problem is that you are making up your own interpretation of a few verses or Hadith, without proper knowledge or understanding of them. What the three Companions who remained behind from the battle of Tabuk experienced is not a default ruling that applies to all Muslims who don't fulfil a responsibility of struggling in the way of Allah or protecting the weak. Moreover, this incident is a lesson of repentance and truthfulness. Even those sincere Companions who remained behind were forgiven by Allah سبحانه وتعالى. So your statement about what you deem to be 'clear disbelief' is incorrect and contradicts what is clearly stated in the Qur'an. The 40 year exile of the Bani Israeel is regarding a different nation whose laws and rulings differed from ours. You cannot take one or two verses from the Qur'an and derive rulings just because you have read some books about Islam. This is why it is said that having only a little knowledge can be dangerous.

In my very clear understanding of what is written, never missing a single item of the 5 Pillars will not make up for this. Those good deeds would certainly make up for a lot of small sins but abandoning the struggle part. I’m really not sure how someone can say it’s not clear as day.

What exactly do you mean by 'the struggle part' and what evidence are you referring to?

I think there’s a real lack of reconciliation in the way Islam is taught today. It’s like the Hadith that says prayer is the most beloved thing to Allah but also as it states clearly in the Quran, the prayers aren’t even accepted when you’re not accepting the struggle.

Which verse of the Qur'an are you referring to? Please be specific rather than making vague claims.

So again, not to be insulting, but besides 1.5 BILLION Muslims, there’s genuine widespread support there for the taking to stop this madness and come up with a better solution. No violence needed, just togetherness, organization, and direction for Muslim leadership. Like how can you love Islam and not be very angry about this??

Thanks for your concern. This has nothing to do with the topic though.

I couldn’t actually ever get close to real belief because I couldn’t understand how God could abandon those people in places like Sub-Saharan Africa for generation after generation. What sort of God is this? So I guess if it’s true Allah guides people to Islam, he let me understand Islam my own way because I found the answer.

You can find this issue being addressed at length in various places, including other threads on this forum. If you are interested, you can read:

A Philosophical & Theological Response to the 'Problem of Evil'
Problem of evil
Is God Merciful? Islam's Response to Evil & Suffering
Why Do People Suffer? God's Existence & The Problem of Evil

They said, we just need to do these 5 Pillars and the stuff we do at the mosque. Follow Sunnah and we are the Muslims and when we go heaven, the VIP section is reserved for us. So Islam became a religion of entitlement and not of selflessness and beauty. The other religions abandoned the religion of the Prophets in the same way.

Can you provide a quote from any Muslim or Mosque who claims this?