Pork prohibited in the Bible

[MustafaMc]

is paul considered a prophet?

Rare is the Christian who would call Paul a Prophet of God, yet consider the following two statements:

Merriam-Webster Dictionary
prophet 1: one who utters divinely inspired revelations

Galatians 1:11-12 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through revelation of Jesus Christ.

So, yes, Paul is a Prophet for the Christian in the same sense that Muhammad (saaws) is the Prophet through which Islam was revealed to the Arabs. Paul was the primary agent through which the doctrine he outlined in I Corinthians 15:3-4 "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures" was established as the central dogma of Christianity. In these verses Paul defines the "gospel" that he received through direct revelation noted in Galatians.

 

[YusufNoor]

I would be a little surprised if you hadn't heard it before, but the Christian belief is that the above is a misinterpretation of the conversation Jesus had with Peter. Jesus wasn't talking about making Peter head of the church.

From Matthew 16:

You are Christ, the Son of the Living God. That is the rock Jesus said he would build his church on. Not Peter personally, or his leadership.

looking at Chapter 16, it appears that the whole "rock" discussion is a play on Peter's name, thus giving indication that it IS talking to about him. it is Christians who claim that the verse DOES refer to Peter, although it MAY be a Catholic thing however, see below

18And I tell you, you are [e]Peter [Greek, Petros--a large piece of rock], and on this rock [Greek, petra--a [f]huge rock like Gibraltar] I will build My church, and the gates of Hades (the powers of the [g]infernal region) shall [h]not overpower it [or be strong to its detriment or hold out against it].

19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind (declare to be improper and unlawful) on earth must be what is already bound in heaven; and whatever you loose (declare lawful) on earth [j]must be what is already loosed in heaven.(B)

the follow up verse to Matt 16:18 DOES seem to declare that a)Peter is given the keys to heaven and b) gives him the authority to declare what is proper and unlawful!


After Christ's death, the apostles and the disciples went about building the church because they were commanded to.

from Matthew 28:

Sure some may have gone to synagogue. But these churches Paul wrote his letters to had to exist before Paul wrote his letters. We have also never found any writings that any of the other apostles called Paul out on false teachings.

Look, the lady had a question about why Christians eat pork. I answered the question. I know as a Muslim you think Christianity is a creation of Paul and the real gospel of Jesus is lost, Jesus was only a prophet, someone else was on the cross, etc. I'm sure you have plenty of verses from the Koran to back up your belief. I'm also sure the subject of Paul has been debated here many times before. I'm not interested in repeating it.

actually, you really DON'T KNOW what my views are or what is the genesis for my beliefs, but i wasn't picking on you or sending you a PM to be answered ONLY by you. i simply quote whatever i am thinking about and leave it for WHOEVER wants to respond or not.

just for the record though, i'm nearly 50 and have only been a Muslim[Alhumdulillah] for 2 years, so that's 4 decades of trying to decipher "Christianity" and failing to do so, for if i had, i might be one. Alhumdulillah, i was protected from that even though i was raised as a Catholic.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

going back to the issue of pork for a moment, after looking at Acts Chapter 15, i'm not so sure that it implies what you [or others, sorry] say it does!

let's look at it:

"Now here is my opinion. We should not make it hard for the non-Jews who are turning to God. 20 Here is what we should write to them. They must not eat food polluted by being offered to statues of gods. They must not commit sexual sins. They must not eat the meat of animals that have been choked to death. And they must not drink blood. 21 These laws of Moses have been preached in every city from the earliest times. They are read out loud in the synagogues every Sabbath day."

we see 3 points made about food, a) They must not eat food polluted by being offered to statues of gods. b)They must not eat the meat of animals that have been choked to death and c)they must not drink blood. well, where do THOSE laws come from? the last 2 sentences tell us: These laws of Moses have been preached in every city from the earliest times. They are read out loud in the synagogues every Sabbath day!

again, what laws? THE LAWS OF MOSES! the ones containing the laws on Kosher food, that have been: READ ALOUD IN THE SYNAGOGUES EVERY SABBATH DAY!

so the message is: Keep Kosher and stay away from sexual immorality!

regarding whether or not eraly "Christians" consider Paul a prophet or not, lets continue on in Acts chapter 15:

30 The men were sent down to Antioch. There they gathered the church together. They gave the letter to them. 31 The people read it. They were glad for its message of hope. 32 Judas and Silas were prophets. They said many things to give strength and hope to the believers

AFTER deciding the Kosher question, two followers of [Christ?] are referred to as what? AS PROPHETS! so the author of Luke and Acts DOES NOT BELIEVE THAT JESUS WAS THE FINAL PROPHET! just a point to ponder...

 

[kirk]

What other animals are Muslims forbidden to eat?

-

 

[Azy]

Rare is the Christian who would call Paul a Prophet of God, yet consider the following two statements

Odd that the Qur'an lists 20-odd prophets of the OT & NT but Paul isn't one of them.

we see 3 points made about food, a) They must not eat food polluted by being offered to statues of gods. b)They must not eat the meat of animals that have been choked to death and c)they must not drink blood. well, where do THOSE laws come from? the last 2 sentences tell us: These laws of Moses have been preached in every city from the earliest times. They are read out loud in the synagogues every Sabbath day!

I believe this is more a political issue rather than a divine law issue, a bit like how Muhammad pbuh could have banned slavery but just encouraged people to treat them better because it would have impeded the acceptance of Islam amongst those who had become accustomed to it.

Most of Christ's followers would have been Jewish converts who were used to following all the hundreds of rules they had including the food ones.
"We should not make it hard for the non-Jews who are turning to God."
They didn't want disagreements about food around the table, like you would have if someone sat next to you with a bacon sandwich.
They knew that most people would be aware of these rules above, because the rules were preached by the Jews throughout the whole land. The non-Jews would not have practiced these rules but they would have been familiar with them.

They're not rules about what God says you can and can't eat, but a compromise to keep the early members of the congregation from getting upset at each other.

 

[barney]

Pork is massively water intensive.
Why encourage your desert locked people to farm something like that?

Plus, if your scribe 2400 year ago, just looking at pigs grunting and wallowing around, they look like theyre unclean.
Simply ban them.

 

[YusufNoor]

Odd that the Qur'an lists 20-odd prophets of the OT & NT but Paul isn't one of them.
.

Peace,


Perhaps you missed my post:

regarding whether or not eraly "Christians" consider Paul a prophet or not, lets continue on in Acts chapter 15:


Quote:
30 The men were sent down to Antioch. There they gathered the church together. They gave the letter to them. 31 The people read it. They were glad for its message of hope. 32 Judas and Silas were prophets. They said many things to give strength and hope to the believers

AFTER deciding the Kosher question, two followers of [Christ?] are referred to as what? AS PROPHETS! so the author of Luke and Acts DOES NOT BELIEVE THAT JESUS WAS THE FINAL PROPHET! just a point to ponder...

so we should ditch the writings of Paul and try to find those of Judas & Silas?

 

[glo]

I think there is some confusion here as to who is referred to as a prophet.

The Bible (OT and NT) refers to many people as prophets - and not all of those were the great prophets from God, which we refer to when we talk about Noah, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah etc.

Here are some references from the OT of other people, called 'prophets'

Then Miriam the prophetess, Aaron's sister, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women followed her, with tambourines and dancing. (Exodus 15)

Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Acbor, Shaphan and Asaiah went to speak to the prophetess Huldah, who was the wife of Shallum son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe. (2 Kings 22)

And here the NT:

There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. (Luke 2)

During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. (Acts 11)

Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the brothers. (Acts 15)

Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. (1 Corinthians)

If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. (1 Corinthians)

In that sense there are still prophets in our time. Some Christians refer to themselves or others a prophets - meaning those who understand the word of God and share it with others.

I don't think the term 'prophet' in that sense can be equated to the Islamic meaning of 'prophet'.

I hope that makes sense.

peace

 

[Azy]

Perhaps you missed my post:
so we should ditch the writings of Paul and try to find those of Judas & Silas?

No that wasn't my point, the reference to Paul was meant for MustafaMc.

As for the final prophet thing, going by what most people's definition seems to be, all the apostles were prophets, so there are a dozen people at least after Jesus. Why the preoccupation with that?

and, yeah what glo said

 

[snakelegs]

Odd that the Qur'an lists 20-odd prophets of the OT & NT but Paul isn't one of them.

why would he be?
i believe that the answer is in the quote mustafamc gave:

Paul was the primary agent through which the doctrine he outlined in I Corinthians 15:3-4 "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures" was established as the central dogma of Christianity. In these verses Paul defines the "gospel" that he received through direct revelation noted in Galatians.

i don't think that this is in accordance with jesus' teachings. and it is not what islam teaches either.

 

[Keltoi]

why would he be?
i believe that the answer is in the quote mustafamc gave:



i don't think that this is in accordance with jesus' teachings. and it is not what islam teaches either.

I'm curious, what about that verse isn't in accordance with the teachings of Christ? That verse outlined above was the fundamental doctrine of the Christian church from the beginning.

 

[snakelegs]

I'm curious, what about that verse isn't in accordance with the teachings of Christ? That verse outlined above was the fundamental doctrine of the Christian church from the beginning.

it's quite possible that i'm wrong as i never read the NT. i was speaking of the teachings of jesus, not church doctrine.
did jesus say he was going to die for your sins?

 

[YusufNoor]

I think there is some confusion here as to who is referred to as a prophet.

The Bible (OT and NT) refers to many people as prophets - and not all of those were the great prophets from God, which we refer to when we talk about Noah, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah etc.

Here are some references from the OT of other people, called 'prophets'



And here the NT:






In that sense there are still prophets in our time. Some Christians refer to themselves or others a prophets - meaning those who understand the word of God and share it with others.

I don't think the term 'prophet' in that sense can be equated to the Islamic meaning of 'prophet'.

I hope that makes sense.

umm, nope! :enough!:


peace

Peace Glo,

i hope you are well.

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Rare is the Christian who would call Paul a Prophet of God,

well it looks like that is all about to change now, innit???:exhausted

"We should not make it hard for the non-Jews who are turning to God."
They didn't want disagreements about food around the table, like you would have if someone sat next to you with a bacon sandwich.

but when it comes to food, 3 parts of kosher law were mentioned and the fact that they were preached by Moses. i doubt you would find any bacon sandwiches near the synagogue either. BUT, who says keeping kosher would be hard? THE VAST MAJORITY of the ORIGINAL FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST, were Jews, any converts could be assisted by them in staying Kosher!

WHY IS THAT HARD?? i mean, if you won't give up a BLT for Paradise...

As for the final prophet thing, going by what most people's definition seems to be, all the apostles were prophets, so there are a dozen people at least after Jesus. Why the preoccupation with that?

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Rare is the Christian who would call Paul a Prophet of God

 

[MustafaMc]

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Rare is the Christian who would call Paul a Prophet of God, yet consider the following two statements

Odd that the Qur'an lists 20-odd prophets of the OT & NT but Paul isn't one of them.

Azy, I understand from your post that you think I believe Paul is a "Prophet of God". No, far from it! My belief about Paul is reflected in Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.

Earlier I defined what a prophet is and showed how, in my opinion, Paul fit the criteria as the de facto Prophet of Christianity in the same sense as Prophet Muhammad (saaws) is the Prophet of Islam. However, from my perspective, Christians don't believe that a single prophet was sent with a single unified message that was directly revealed from God to establish the religion that we know today as Christianity. My reading of the Bible, particularly Galatians, tells me that Paul claimed to have received a Divine revelation and that he was the primary instigator of doing away with the Judaic Law (not eating pork, circumcision, etc) and establishing the doctrine of God becoming man, living a perfect, sinless life and dying on the cross as a redeeming sacrifice as the only means by which man's original and personal sins can be forgiven. ...but that is just my opinion regarding Paul.

 

[MustafaMc]

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

going back to the issue of pork for a moment, after looking at Acts Chapter 15, i'm not so sure that it implies what you [or others, sorry] say it does!
...

we see 3 points made about food, a) They must not eat food polluted by being offered to statues of gods. b)They must not eat the meat of animals that have been choked to death and c)they must not drink blood. well, where do THOSE laws come from? the last 2 sentences tell us: These laws of Moses have been preached in every city from the earliest times. They are read out loud in the synagogues every Sabbath day!

again, what laws? THE LAWS OF MOSES! the ones containing the laws on Kosher food, that have been: READ ALOUD IN THE SYNAGOGUES EVERY SABBATH DAY!

so the message is: Keep Kosher and stay away from sexual immorality!

In the OT we read what the Mosaic Law forbids including swine Leviticus 11:7-8 And the swine, because he parteth the hoof, and is cloven footed, but cheweth not the cud, he is unclean unto you. Of their flesh ye shall not eat, and their carcasses ye shall not touch; they are unclean unto you. and Deuteronomy 14:8 And the swine, because he parteth the hoof but cheweth not the cud, he is unclean unto you: of their flesh ye shall not eat, and their carcasses ye shall not touch.

A rebellious people is defined in Isaiah Is 65:2-4 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, that walk in a way that is not good, after their own thoughts; a people that provoke me to my face continually, sacrificing in gardens, and burning incense upon bricks; that sit among the graves, and lodge in the secret places; that eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;

 

[Keltoi]

it's quite possible that i'm wrong as i never read the NT. i was speaking of the teachings of jesus, not church doctrine.
did jesus say he was going to die for your sins?

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:14-15).

The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! (NASB) John 1:29

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust . . . (NASB) 1 Peter 3:18

And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. (NASB) 1 John 3:5

(Matthew 20:25-28) But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. {26} "Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. {27} "And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave; {28} "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

(John 6:50-63) "This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. {51} "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

So yes, Christ did teach that He came to take the sin of the world upon Himself.

 

[snakelegs]

i stand corrected. i'm really surprised though - it seems so.....well, so un-jewish!
i learned 3 new things about christianity today here on islamicboard!
thanks.

 

[Azy]

but when it comes to food, 3 parts of kosher law were mentioned and the fact that they were preached by Moses. i doubt you would find any bacon sandwiches near the synagogue either. BUT, who says keeping kosher would be hard? THE VAST MAJORITY of the ORIGINAL FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST, were Jews, any converts could be assisted by them in staying Kosher!

WHY IS THAT HARD?? i mean, if you won't give up a BLT for Paradise...

Ok first things first.
You're arguing that Paul is a false prophet, but that we should obey what he says about the law?

On the specifics of your act 15 quote about the laws, the amount of stick people get for misquoting the Qur'an is enormous, but it's fine for you to do it to the Bible

Acts 15:
1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved."
2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad.
4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

 

[YusufNoor]

Ok first things first.
You're arguing that Paul is a false prophet, but that we should obey what he says about the law?

actually, it was MustafaMC who said that. my view on Paul is more centered on Acts 8:3:

3But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.

to wit, Paul just changed his tactics, but continued his mission to destroy the church and that he succeeded.


On the specifics of your act 15 quote about the laws, the amount of stick people get for misquoting the Qur'an is enormous, but it's fine for you to do it to the Bible

what part did i misquote? i cut and pasted, iirc. just show me and i'll address it, In Sha'a Allah!

btw, and are you implying that "Christians" NEVER misquote the Qur'an??


Acts 15:
1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved."
2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
3 The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad.
4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question.
7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.
8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

addressing that latter part specifically, we aren't talking about saved vrs works, that would be another thread. what i did was follow James' quote to the end, like this:

13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, hearken unto me.

14Simon hath declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out from them a people for His name.

15And to this agree the words of the Prophets, as it is written:

16`After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down. And I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up,

17that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom My name is called, saith the Lord who doeth all these things.'

18Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world.

19Therefore my judgment is that we trouble not those from among the Gentiles who are turned to God,

20but that we write unto them that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

21For Moses from olden times hath in every city those who preach him, he being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day."

now follow with me here, i'll type real slow...

we write unto them that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


21For Moses from olden times hath in every city those who preach him, he being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day

the original message of Jesus was spread via the Jews in the diaspora and from that diaspora to the gentiles. now in acts we read:

Acts 6
The Choosing of the Seven
1In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food. 2So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, "It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables. 3Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them 4and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word."

let's review: according to Acts 6:1 there was a daily distribution of food amongst the Christians, comprende? James, speaking in Acts 15:20 says that they must pollutions of idols, ... and from things strangled, and from blood which are part of [Acts 15:21 the laws of:] Moses from olden times hath in every city those who preach him, he being read in the synagogues every Sabbath day. so the "great difficulty" in obtaining the KOSHER food was to ACCEPT WHAT WAS DISTRIBUTED TO YOU!!!!

mg:

is this clear?

 

[Azy]

What can I say?

Read verses 5-11 again. Read them really, really carefully.

Regarding the later verses...
The 4 rules that were sent to the gentiles are discussed here.

THE VAST MAJORITY of the ORIGINAL FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST, were Jews, any converts could be assisted by them in staying Kosher!

Peter says that the Gentiles do not need to eat Kosher food, they had been accepted by God as they were and would continue to be.

Read the sermon on the mount again, the message that Jesus is trying to get across in the whole Bible is that following rituals does not make you a good person, thinking and acting like a good person do.

 

[barney]

Paul, since he wasnt a Diciple , and diddnt get the magic power after Jesus died, only gets his authority from his vision.

Jesus said that he hadnt come to change one iota of Gods law.

I just wanna say this. If God had all these laws for his chosen ppl, (yeah, im lazy i cant be bothered to type "people" today, hmm...hang on...never mind), then surely what he would choose for his best, we should try to emulate.
Unless of course it seems silly pointless unessecery dogma steeped in sacrifice and pagan nonsense.