Pork prohibited in the Bible

[Keltoi]

Paul, since he wasnt a Diciple , and diddnt get the magic power after Jesus died, only gets his authority from his vision.

Jesus said that he hadnt come to change one iota of Gods law.

I just wanna say this. If God had all these laws for his chosen ppl, (yeah, im lazy i cant be bothered to type "people" today, hmm...hang on...never mind), then surely what he would choose for his best, we should try to emulate.
Unless of course it seems silly pointless unessecery dogma steeped in sacrifice and pagan nonsense.

Christ said He didn't come to change the Law, but to fulfill it. Which is why one of his last statements on the Cross was "It is finished"...or another translation would be "It is accomplished".

In any event, Christ's emphasis wasn't on Kosher food, but on the content of character and action...as a previous poster mentioned.

 

[Azy]

Jesus said that he hadnt come to change one iota of Gods law.

I just wanna say this. If God had all these laws for his chosen ppl, (yeah, im lazy i cant be bothered to type "people" today, hmm...hang on...never mind), then surely what he would choose for his best, we should try to emulate.
Unless of course it seems silly pointless unessecery dogma steeped in sacrifice and pagan nonsense.

He didn't change God's laws, he changed Moses' laws.

 

[aadil77]

What other animals are Muslims forbidden to eat?

-

out of the main meats only pork+o(

 

[MustafaMc]

He didn't change God's laws, he changed Moses' laws.

So what Moses brought down from the Mount (Sinai?) wasn't revelaed by God, but rather it was his own personal ideas? I always thought that it was a Divine revelation.

 

[Azy]

So what Moses brought down from the Mount (Sinai?) wasn't revelaed by God, but rather it was his own personal ideas? I always thought that it was a Divine revelation.

The 10 commandments that were "written with the finger of God" on the stone tablets are referred to as God's law, the others are Moses' laws.
This distinction is made a few times in the OT.

 

[barney]

But moses wouldnt bring out any law that God wasnt in full agreement with.
God whacked a guy just for trying to stop the arc of the coveneant from toppeling over. He would pretty much smite the Jews left right and centre for transgressions gr8 and small.

Moses having either seen or directed all of that isnt going to say "You must stroke the cat with your elbow of the right arm, but cursed is the woman who strokes the kitten with the left ankle" Unless god wanted this for his people, and indeed all people.

 

[Azy]

But moses wouldnt bring out any law that God wasnt in full agreement with.
God whacked a guy just for trying to stop the arc of the coveneant from toppeling over. He would pretty much smite the Jews left right and centre for transgressions gr8 and small.

Moses having either seen or directed all of that isnt going to say "You must stroke the cat with your elbow of the right arm, but cursed is the woman who strokes the kitten with the left ankle" Unless god wanted this for his people, and indeed all people.

God was in full agreement as they were dictated by him to Moses.

This issue is covered in Galatians 3:

15 Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case.
16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ.
17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

 

[MustafaMc]

God was in full agreement as they were dictated by him to Moses.

How could God NOT be in full agreement with the Law He dictated to Moses?

24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Yes, the book of Galatians speaks volumes to me. First with how Paul got his "revelation" and how he did away with observance of the Judaic Law. What words of Jesus are in agreement with this passage?

 

[barney]

First with how Paul got his "revelation" and how he did away with observance of the Judaic Law. What words of Jesus are in agreement with this passage?

Paul's actions certainly were not in accordance with the more popular of Jesus teachings, its not a great leap to say he was a lone wolf kinda character. Divinely guided? If so then he seemed to drift a bit from the guidence!

 

[chacha_jalebi]

cough cough, please do note a eye is being kept on this thread, keep it civil kiddos

 

[FatimaAsSideqah]

cough cough, please do note a eye is being kept on this thread, keep it civil kiddos

As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

Jazaak'Allah Khair.

 

[Azy]

How could God NOT be in full agreement with the Law He dictated to Moses?

I was just confirming my agreement with barney.

Yes, the book of Galatians speaks volumes to me. First with how Paul got his "revelation" and how he did away with observance of the Judaic Law. What words of Jesus are in agreement with this passage?

Both those events are in Acts, not Galatians.

You're right in that Jesus never explicitly said the words, but a lot of the language used is poetic. I'm not excusing it or condoning it because I neither follow it or believe in it's absolute accuracy, I'm not a christian and never have been/will be, I just find religion and interesting topic.
Anyway, it just seems obvious from the words and actions of Jesus, like the sermon on the mount that we've discussed and Jesus meeting with the sinful Samaritan woman at the well and taking a drink from her (which would have been a big no-no to Jews).

 

[MustafaMc]

Both those events are in Acts, not Galatians.

What I was referring to is Galatians 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. and Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

What events in Acts are you talking about?

 

[Azy]

What I was referring to is Galatians 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. and Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

What events in Acts are you talking about?

Just look a couple of pages back. The story of Paul's revelation is in Acts, as is the early church council's explicit declaration voiced by Peter that the followers are not under the law. Galatians is about Paul's letter to the Galatians explaining what had happened.

 

[E'jaazi]

Just look a couple of pages back. The story of Paul's revelation is in Acts, as is the early church council's explicit declaration voiced by Peter that the followers are not under the law. Galatians is about Paul's letter to the Galatians explaining what had happened.

Christians who do not follow the law are following the teachings of Paul. But according to Jesus, the law is in effect until the end of time. In the book of Revelations, John speaks of many things happening just before the end of time. When these things have happened, he speaks about the old heaven and the old earth passing away, and there being a new heaven and a new earth. Has this happened yet? NO! So now, read what Jesus had to say about the law and when it would no longer be in effect:


Matthew 5:17-20 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain



17) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20)For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Jesus clearly states "til heaven and earth pass." So if you call yourself Christian, which means follower of Christ, you are suppose to follow the law. Paul teachings go against the teachings of Jesus. The above verse is very clear.

 

[YusufNoor]

I was just confirming my agreement with barney.Both those events are in Acts, not Galatians.

You're right in that Jesus never explicitly said the words, but a lot of the language used is poetic. I'm not excusing it or condoning it because I neither follow it or believe in it's absolute accuracy, I'm not a christian and never have been/will be, I just find religion and interesting topic.

OK, THAT surprised me! care to reveal your religious beliefs?

Anyway, it just seems obvious from the words and actions of Jesus, like the sermon on the mount that we've discussed and Jesus meeting with the sinful Samaritan woman at the well and taking a drink from her (which would have been a big no-no to Jews).

Peters' dream in Acts shows him to be still following Kosher food laws, this SHOULD eliminate any question of whether or not Jesus did away with those particular laws.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

speaking of Galations, i was watching the Frontline show From Jesus To Christ: The first Christians, and the Professors there raise some interesting poinst.

first and foremost of these is this:

NARRATOR: With so little evidence to go by, archeologists must sift the clues and scholars decode the stories told by the first followers of Jesus.

Prof. MICHAEL WHITE, University of Texas, Austin: The problem for any historian in trying to reconstruct the life of Jesus is simply that we don't have sources that come from the actual time of Jesus himself. HOLLAND L. HENDRIX, President, Union Theological Seminary: The historian's task in understanding Jesus and the Jesus movement and early Christianity is a lot like the archaeologist's task in excavating a tell. You peel back layer after layer after layer of interpretation, and what you always find is a plurality of Jesuses
so no contemperaneous evidence and a plurality of Jesus!

regarding Gentiles being interested in Judaism:

Prof. PAULA FREDRIKSEN, Boston University: Why do gentiles join the movement? There is this tremendous religious prestige, thanks to the antiquity of the Jewish Bible. By entering into the church, these Christians enter into that history as well. That's tremendously prestigious and important
one of points as well is that the early Christians were interested in Judaism adn the Jewish Bible! it's one of the attractions, NOT a stumbling block! all 613 mitzvahs? maybe not, but still...

NARRATOR: Like most Jewish communities, the early followers of Jesus assembled for worship in each other's homes.

Prof. WAYNE MEEKS, Yale University: Among the things that make the Christians different are a couple of rituals, which they developed early on, before the very earliest sources that we have about them. One of these is an initiation ceremony, which they call "baptism," which is simply a Greek word that means dunking. A second major ritual which they developed is a meal, a common meal which they have together, which is designed as a memorial of the Last Supper which Jesus had with his disciples.

ahem, THEY ATE TOGETHER!

regarding how Jewish one must become:

Prof. MICHAEL WHITE: Now the situation seems to be that initially, when people were attracted to the Jesus movement, they first became Jews.

NARRATOR: Becoming a Jew was no easy matter. It meant conforming to strict Jewish laws.

READER: [Leviticus 11:46-47] "This is the law to make a distinction between the unclean and the clean, and between the living creature that may be eaten and the living creature that may not be eaten."

Prof. MICHAEL WHITE: There are several issues involved here. One is the notion of the dietary laws, the eating restrictions that would have obtained for eating certain kinds of food if one was an observant Jew, also with whom one could eat.

looking back at the words of Jesus, the whole clean and unclean seems to me to point to the issue of people and not food...

but Paul appears to see things differently:

Prof. SHAYE J.D. COHEN, Brown University: We now have, Paul says, a new map of the world. The old distinctions between Jews and gentiles are now obliterated. They have now been supplanted by a new and truer and more wonderful and more beautiful map, in which we have a new Israel that will embrace both Jews and gentiles, all those who now accept the new covenant and the new faith.

READER: [Galatians 3:28] "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female, for all of you are one in Christ Jesus."

so were back to Galations, what is going on here?

Prof. MICHAEL WHITE: And that would spark one of the most important controversies of the first generation: Do you have to become a Jew in order to be a follower of Jesus as the messiah?

we may have found our issue!

READER: [Galatians 2:1-2] "I went up to Jerusalem with Barnabas and I laid before the acknowledged leaders the gospel that I proclaim among the gentiles.
BUT! notice Paul is coming to Jerusalem to inform the leaders of the Church about the Gospel that he is proclaiming!? so, it's a different gospel? NOT being an acknowledged leader, he must be acting on his own...

Prof. MICHAEL WHITE: Paul says explicitly that he went down to Jerusalem to meet with the leaders of the church there. He calls them the "pillars."

notice Paul is not one of the Pillars...

now, some sort of agreement SEEMS to, be reached but:
Prof. ALLEN CALLAHAN: A classic showdown in the history of earliest Christianity, and Paul tells the story this way. He says that in Antioch he encountered Peter, who was having a meal with non-Israelite Jesus people. Peter thought this was all right until the contingent from Jerusalem came.

Prof. PAULA FREDRIKSEN: And they tap Peter on the shoulder and Peter stops attending these banquets. And then we get a great passage of "Espuit de l'espalier." It's probably what Paul wishes he had thought to say to Peter at the time, but in the letter it's presented as what he says to Peter. And he's yelling at Peter for not being true to the Gospel and not being true to Christ and not being true to this vision of things. And what he's really yelling at Peter about is food.

so what's the result?

Prof. ALLEN CALLAHAN: And the way Paul tells it is he says, "Well, you know, I confronted Peter publicly. I told him he was a hypocrite. I told him off to his face. I told him off in front of everybody." End of story.

Well, the story really doesn't have an end. You know, we'd like Paul to tell us that after he told Peter off, he sort of skulked back to Jerusalem with his tail between his legs and then Paul gave James and his party the what for and then he threw them out or something like that. Nothing like that. Paul's completely silent.

Now, this suggests to us that Paul indeed had a showdown in Antioch. He did face off with Peter. He didn't win. He didn't carry the day, at least not that day. So this suggests to us that James's party was influential and influential outside its Jerusalem jurisdiction, and that perhaps James and his posse were there because they felt that their authority should be exercised outside of the jurisdiction of Jerusalem.

Prof. MICHAEL WHITE: The blow-up in Antioch over eating with gentiles probably is the turning point in Paul's career. Paul left and went to western Turkey or Asia Minor and Greece. For the next 10 years, from 50 to roughly 60, Paul will concentrate all of his efforts in this region of the Aegean basin.

source:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/etc/script1.html

so Paul loses and Paul then spends the next 10 years out of the reach of the leaders of the church! no agreement anymore! YET, Christianity continued to expand, this should lead one to conclude that Gentiles were no longer unclean as they continued to join the church, but unclean food was out! of course, i believe that it was never in...

 

[YusufNoor]

Just look a couple of pages back. The story of Paul's revelation is in Acts, as is the early church council's explicit declaration voiced by Peter that the followers are not under the law. Galatians is about Paul's letter to the Galatians explaining what had happened.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance:

let's look at Paul's Revelation:

Acts 9
Saul's Conversion
1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"

5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.

"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

and again in Acts 26:


Passage Acts 26 :

12"On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a] 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'

15"Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?'

" 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

So Paul is given the mission to:

I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God

so, Paul will be sent to the Gentiles, THAT is the revelation. now, HOW will he know what to do?

"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

go into the city and "you will be told what you must do!"

so it looks like Paul should follow the orders that he is given!

 

[Keltoi]

What about this line in the Qu'ran, which I admit I don't consider an authority on the life of Christ, but...

(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me, and to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you...
Surat-u Ali Imran (3):50

 

[Azy]

OK, THAT surprised me! care to reveal your religious beliefs?

I don't have any religious beliefs.

Peters' dream in Acts shows him to be still following Kosher food laws, this SHOULD eliminate any question of whether or not Jesus did away with those particular laws.

Peter's vision is an analogy.

It's more about God making the hearts of the Gentiles clean and that Peter should accept them, notice it is part of a story in which Cornelius comes to meet Peter and he invites him into his house (which would be unusual for a Jew and a Gentile at the time due to them being considered unclean). It makes sense in the context of the whole chapter.

Like you said, the unclean/clean issue was more to do with people and that those who were once considered unclean should be accepted. This does relate to the food issue in that those who were not Jews were not expected to follow the Jewish laws (which were only intended for the 'chosen' people in the Old Testament, not people of any other nation).

I know muslims have a huge beef with Paul and his corruption of the teachings, but it is in Acts 15:5-11 where the Jews are told that God accepts the Gentiles without them following Jewish law.
It is Peter who told them and Luke who wrote this part of the Bible, so how can you say it is Paul trying to persuade people not to follow the jewish laws?

 

[kirk]

The members of each religion take guidance from their imams, bishops, rabbis or what ever.

To us Atheists the logic of the various rulings often makes no sense at all!

The Christians have ruled that there is no ban on eating pork. If you feel it makes no sense then join the club!

K