Pork prohibited in the Bible

[YusufNoor]

I don't have any religious beliefs.
Peter's vision is an analogy.

It's more about God making the hearts of the Gentiles clean and that Peter should accept them, notice it is part of a story in which Cornelius comes to meet Peter and he invites him into his house (which would be unusual for a Jew and a Gentile at the time due to them being considered unclean). It makes sense in the context of the whole chapter.

Like you said, the unclean/clean issue was more to do with people and that those who were once considered unclean should be accepted. This does relate to the food issue in that those who were not Jews were not expected to follow the Jewish laws (which were only intended for the 'chosen' people in the Old Testament, not people of any other nation).

I know muslims have a huge beef with Paul and his corruption of the teachings, but it is in Acts 15:5-11 where the Jews are told that God accepts the Gentiles without them following Jewish law.
It is Peter who told them and Luke who wrote this part of the Bible, so how can you say it is Paul trying to persuade people not to follow the jewish laws?

see, hear we'd tell you that there is no indication prior to the late 2nd century who the author is and the PRIMARY ISSUE at hand seems to be circumcision! there's no "yoke" affiliated with keeping kosher, over a BILLION people keep a "halal diet" and is not difficult.

actually my belief in THIS matter predates my Islam. most of my views came from Herbert W Armstrong's writings, hence the "heretic" nic under my name as the Christians on this board don't consider him a Christian.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

i reckon we look for little gems of the truth in the NT!

 

[Azy]

see, hear we'd tell you that there is no indication prior to the late 2nd century who the author is and the PRIMARY ISSUE at hand seems to be circumcision! there's no "yoke" affiliated with keeping kosher, over a BILLION people keep a "halal diet" and is not difficult.

The issue is with all the Mosaic law, circumcision was mentioned specifically because it is something that must be done to them rather than a rule they must follow.

5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

You might not see keeping kosher as a difficulty, but there are 613 rules in the Mosaic law as I'm sure you're aware.

Keeping a halal diet might not be difficult, especially if you live in a place where there is no haram food. Where I live there are more muslim owned food shops than non-muslim, and still I see muslims eating haram food. I don't know any muslims that haven't broken the rules at some point, and most that I know do on a regular basis.
It's all very well saying a billion people follow this rule, but when there is no alternative and no temptation for most of these is it really something praise-worthy?
Same issue with the Gentiles, they would have had a whole heap of new rules to follow that the Jews had been observing for a thousand years and could easily follow as they were surrounded by other Jews, but even then a lot of them were just churning through rituals for the sake of keeping up appearances, the underlying motives were not being considered. That's why Jesus had a big problem with the Pharisees and scribes, they were acting all holy and pious and showing how good they were, but their reasons were not genuine, they were just being arrogant about how much better they were at following rules than other people.

 

[MustafaMc]

READER: [Galatians 2:1-2] "I went up to Jerusalem with Barnabas and I laid before the acknowledged leaders the gospel that I proclaim among the gentiles.
BUT! notice Paul is coming to Jerusalem to inform the leaders of the Church about the Gospel that he is proclaiming!? so, it's a different gospel? NOT being an acknowledged leader, he must be acting on his own...

Prof. MICHAEL WHITE: Paul says explicitly that he went down to Jerusalem to meet with the leaders of the church there. He calls them the "pillars."

notice Paul is not one of the Pillars...

Very nice link and information from a non-Muslim analysis.

Yet, what did Paul think of those pillars of reputation and what was his relationship to them?

Galatians 2:4 ... in order to bring us into bondage (observance of law - circumcision, dietary restrictions, etc) 5 But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel (that he personally brought to them) would remain with you. 6 But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiallity) -well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me. (sounds like words of contempt and opposition to me).

Who were these pillars he was in conflict with? 9 ... James and Cephas (Peter) and John, who were reputed to be pillars ...

 

[MustafaMc]

Keeping a halal diet might not be difficult, especially if you live in a place where there is no haram food. Where I live there are more muslim owned food shops than non-muslim, and still I see muslims eating haram food. I don't know any muslims that haven't broken the rules at some point, and most that I know do on a regular basis.

What do you define as haram, or forbidden? How many Muslims have you seen to eat bacon, sausage, pork chops, chitterlings or pickled pig feet? What about food sacrificed to idols?

In Islam there is relatively little that is forbidden (haram) as detailed in the Qur'an.
Qur'an 6:145 O Muhammad tell them: I did not find in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, except the meat of an already dead animal, or running blood or the flesh of swine (pork) - for these are unclean - or flesh of an animal which has become profane because of slaughtering in the names other than Allah. Even so, if anyone is forced in a helpless situation, intending neither disobedience nor transgression, you will find your Rabb Forgiving, Merciful.

Qur'an 5:3 You are forbidden to eat the meat of any animal that dies by itself (dead body), blood, the flesh of swine (pork) and that on which any name other than Allah has been invoked; also that which is strangled to death, killed by a violent blow, killed by a headlong fall and of those beaten or gored to death; and that which has been partly eaten by a wild animal unless you are able to slaughter it before its death; also that which is sacrificed on altars or is divided by raffling of arrows.

There is some disagreement in the interpretation of this ayat, but People of the Book is often understood to be Jews and Christians. Some interpret it to mean that food of Christians, except for pork, is permissible (halal).
Qur'an 5:5 Today all good clean things have been made lawful for you; and the food of the People of the Book is also made lawful for you and your food is made lawful for them....

To avoid the questionable, my wife and I shop for zabiha meat (slaughter properly with name of Allah spoken) from a Muslim market in a major city 130 miles away and we eat vegetable, seafood or fish from restaurants.

It's all very well saying a billion people follow this rule, but when there is no alternative and no temptation for most of these is it really something praise-worthy?

Why does one have to be surrounded by temptation in order for following rules to be praise-worthy? We Muslims strive for the pleasure of Allah, not the praise of men.

 

[MustafaMc]

What about this line in the Qu'ran, which I admit I don't consider an authority on the life of Christ, but...

(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me, and to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you...
Surat-u Ali Imran (3):50

We don't know the details of what Jesus (as) allowed from what was previously forbidden, but it is highly doubtful that Jesus allowed the consumption of pork. Perhaps, man had erroneously added to the law to make it unnecessarily burdensome.

One of the things that Jesus addressed was activity on the Sabbath as he healed and allowed his disciples to pick grain on the Sabbath.

 

[Keltoi]

We don't know the details of what Jesus (as) allowed from what was previously forbidden, but it is highly doubtful that Jesus allowed the consumption of pork. Perhaps, man had erroneously added to the law to make it unnecessarily burdensome.

One of the things that Jesus addressed was activity on the Sabbath as he healed and allowed his disciples to pick grain on the Sabbath.

As far as we know, Christ didn't address the issue of dietary law at all, except for the verse in which He states that nothing eaten can make one unclean. That could mean we should take it for granted, or it could mean He didn't feel He needed or wanted to emphasize it. From the standpoint of the Jewish people, there was no call for Gentiles to abide by the same set of laws given them through Moses. These laws were specific to the people of Israel.

In any event, this debate went on for quite awhile within the early church, many of whom still considered themselves to be "Jewish" in the religious sense, not to mention those who were Jewish in both the religious and ethnic sense. I doubt we are going to cover any ground here that they themselves didn't consider.

 

[YusufNoor]

The issue is with all the Mosaic law, circumcision was mentioned specifically because it is something that must be done to them rather than a rule they must follow.

and something that could be considered difficult!

5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."

You might not see keeping kosher as a difficulty, but there are 613 rules in the Mosaic law as I'm sure you're aware.

yes, but one must figure out which of those mitzvahs are of the "spiritual" type and therefore should still be followed

Keeping a halal diet might not be difficult, especially if you live in a place where there is no haram food.

i live in the US so there is more haram food than not

Where I live there are more muslim owned food shops than non-muslim,

and In Sha'a Allah, i will too one day!


and still I see muslims eating haram food. I don't know any muslims that haven't broken the rules at some point, and most that I know do on a regular basis.
It's all very well saying a billion people follow this rule, but when there is no alternative and no temptation for most of these is it really something praise-worthy?

i'm one of the millions that live in temptation with little alternative, yey just a little discipline is all it takes...


Same issue with the Gentiles, they would have had a whole heap of new rules to follow that the Jews had been observing for a thousand years and could easily follow as they were surrounded by other Jews, but even then a lot of them were just churning through rituals for the sake of keeping up appearances, the underlying motives were not being considered.

yet, there MUST be some laws, eh?

That's why Jesus had a big problem with the Pharisees and scribes, they were acting all holy and pious and showing how good they were, but their reasons were not genuine, they were just being arrogant about how much better they were at following rules than other people.

actually, it goes down to the divsion between the Hillel and Shimei schools of Jewish though, Jesus' words reflect the Hillel school while the Shimei is more interested in following the rules...

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

the problem is that IF you believe the NT to be accurate, then you should follow it and use it as guidance and as a proof.

here's a little article by Herbert W. Armsrtong regarding food stuffs:

http://www.lynxconnect.com/~dawson/armstrong/BA/animalflesh.htm

one regarding Holy Days:

http://www.lynxconnect.com/~dawson/armstrong/BA/HOLYDAYS.HTM

one about Christmas:

http://www.lynxconnect.com/~dawson/armstrong/BA/PTXMAS.HTM

two about Easter:

http://www.lynxconnect.com/~dawson/armstrong/BA/PTEAST.HTM

http://www.lynxconnect.com/~dawson/armstrong/BA/RESNOS.HTM

and one about the 10 Commandments:

http://www.lynxconnect.com/~dawson/armstrong/BA/T10C.HTM

i think that you must belive that the NT is the TOTAL TRUTH so that you follow it ALL, or that you realize that it's a new Gospel, probably authored by Paul and that a new Rebelation was needed to get us back on the Straight Path!

hence, Islam!

 

[Azy]

What do you define as haram, or forbidden? How many Muslims have you seen to eat bacon, sausage, pork chops, chitterlings or pickled pig feet? What about food sacrificed to idols?

I'm not just talking about food.
Drinking, smoking, drugs, sex outside marriage, illegitimate earnings & gambling along with eating food which is almost certainly not halal (I don't know if McDonalds and the like perform the correct blessing :?).

Why does one have to be surrounded by temptation in order for following rules to be praise-worthy? We Muslims strive for the pleasure of Allah, not the praise of men.

I said praise-worthy as I couldn't think of a better word at the time, it's not really what I meant.

Saying 'a BILLION' people keep to a halal diet as if it's meant to be an impressive figure has the opposite effect, since the more people there are following it, the easier it is for each individual. It's practically impossible to eat haram in many countries.

YusufNoor, yes some laws - God's laws, the ten commandments cover the basics.

This thing is going to go on forever and the outcome doesn't affect me in the slightest, so I'm going to make this my last post in this particular thread.
Keltoi covered it more succinctly than I could in his post.

Jesus was right though, people just bicker over the details of the laws and lose focus on the real humanitarian issues that need attention.