Proof of God

[mathematicci]

Every village must have its headman; every needle must have its manufacturer and craftsman. And, as you know, every letter must be written by someone. How, then, can it be that so extremely well-ordered a kingdom should have no ruler? And how can so much wealth have no owner, when every hour a train2 arrives filled with precious and artful gifts, as if coming from the realm of the unseen? And all the announcements and proclamations, all the seals and stamps, found on all those goods, all the coins and the flags waving in every corner of the kingdom - can they be without an owner?

 

[muslimahh]

Social evolution like biological evolution is a process of time.

Then why humans only? Logically it does not make sense that humans only would develop socially unless there was a distinction between humans and animals. Why would this distinction come about? Its obviously not through an evolutionary process beginning by chance and eventually reaching the point of humanness while animals, if anything, began to evolve at the same time, if not earlier depending on how you look at it, than human beings.

The evidence you are giving me is lacking is as much scientific evidence as creationism or intelligent design explanations except that the latter options make logical sense and are fully explainedin several scriptures.

 

[root]

Then why humans only?

Why do camels only have those humps on thier back, Why are 10% of europeans immune to aids yet the rest of the world are not!

Logically it does not make sense that humans only would develop socially

What gives you the idea that only humans develop socially, all primates form social groups and many other species too.

unless there was a distinction between humans and animals. Why would this distinction come about? Its obviously not through an evolutionary process

You obviously don't know much about evolution (as your evolved computer post) implied. Can you even explain why it could not come through an evolutionary process.

beginning by chance and eventually reaching the point of humanness while animals, if anything, began to evolve at the same time, if not earlier depending on how you look at it, than human beings.

That makes no sense at all and clearly only shows the level of ignorance you have towards evolution. (I don't mean to be offensive)

The evidence you are giving me is lacking is as much scientific evidence as creationism or intelligent design explanations except that the latter options make logical sense and are fully explainedin several scriptures.

The evidence is thier for you to access if you could be bothered, but then again I don't think you can be?

 

[أحمد]

Why are 10% of europeans immune to aids yet the rest of the world are not!

I think thats a question for the people involved in the engineering of the virus, but here's an article that you may find interesting (its got nothing to do with proof of God in any way, its just about AIDS):

• http://hiddenrealities.8m.com/aids.html

I hope that cover's the AIDS issue sufficiently.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I would very much like to hear your explanation on how earth came to being not by-chance without the involvement of a God.

Big Bang + Evolution by Natural Selection. Neither of these things have been absolutely proven, but they are certainly the best guesses on offer. Also, although both contain random elements, they contain non-random elements too.

Why not? If you said

The (frankly bizarre) idea that dolphins are theists does not logically follow from what I said.

and further stated that we are no different than animals, why not? It is plausible according to your explanation.

I think you'll find it was root who stressed the similarities between us and other animal species. Although I agree with him, there is something that separates humans from other animals, but I'm not precisely sure what it is - more highly developed intelligence, self consciousness - something like that, but as I say, I'm not sure.

You'll find that nothing in my statements so far makes dolphins being theists seem a likely proposition - perhaps you can explain in more detail how you've arrived at this conclusion.

1. Do you yourself think dolphins are theists, and if so why?

2. How did you derive this statement from what I said?

Peace

 

[root]

I think thats a question for the people involved in the engineering of the virus, but here's an article that you may find interesting (its got nothing to do with proof of God in any way, its just about AIDS):
http://hiddenrealities.8m.com/aids.html
I hope that cover's the AIDS issue sufficiently.

What a load of dribble if you don't mind me saying so. Firstt your right that aids has nothing to do with the proof of god, however just to quickly shoot your thread down as crap (it seems to me you want to just blame the US for anything irrespective of source)

The Conspiracy Theory

Some say that HIV is a 'conspiracy theory' or that it is 'man-made'. A recent survey carried out in the US for example, identified a significant number of African Americans who believe HIV was manufactured as part of a biological warfare programme, designed to wipe out large numbers of black and homosexual people. Many say this was done under the auspices of the US federal 'Special Cancer Virus Program' (SCVP), possibly with the help of the CIA. Some even believe that the virus was spread (either deliberately or inadvertently) to thousands of people all over the world through the smallpox inoculation programme, or to gay men through Hepatitis B vaccine trials. While none of these theories can be definitively disproved, the evidence they are based on is tenuous at best, and often ignores the clear link between SIV and HIV, or the fact that the virus has been identified in people as far back as 1959. They also fail to take into consideration the lack of genetic-engineering technology available to 'create' the virus at the time that AIDS first appeared.

You could just simply educate yourself free of your apparent ignorance here:

http://www.avert.org/origins.htm

(PS. Spare me the moon landings)

CZGIBSON -

think you'll find it was root who stressed the similarities between us and other animal species. Although I agree with him, there is something that separates humans from other animals, but I'm not precisely sure what it is - more highly developed intelligence, self consciousness - something like that, but as I say, I'm not sure.

Intelligence, self consciousness and even a soul. How strongly would you feel the probability of all this lies in mans ability to communicate verbally. How much of a seperation has language written and verbal advanced the human race as a species?

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

CZGIBSON -
Intelligence, self consciousness and even a soul. How strongly would you feel the probability of all this lies in mans ability to communicate verbally. How much of a seperation has language written and verbal advanced the human race as a species?

Excellent point - I fully agree. Although other species can communicate, none can do it to the extent we can, and I don't know of an animal besides humans that can use written communication.

Peace

 

[muslimahh]

The computer argument was just to point out how ridiculous the proposition that everything we know today came to be my evolution, chance and without any direction or intentional creation. If I said that and was serious you would think I was a fool.

Written communication is a sign from God, as is the diversity of species like camels, the diversity of the environment, weather, water, humans, monkeys, birds, insects, everything you see around you.

I don't get any benefit from conveying this message to you and only God Almighty can open your hearts. I hope you both reflect on this and sincerely think about life as a whole rather than presenting arguments that are simply theoretical and unlikely.

Peace,

 

[HeiGou]

The computer argument was just to point out how ridiculous the proposition that everything we know today came to be my evolution, chance and without any direction or intentional creation. If I said that and was serious you would think I was a fool.

The mistake there is to think that evolution is by chance and without any direction. Globally there is a case, but locally there is not. At any one time, on average, it is the slowest gazelle that gets eaten (but only on average). So that over time gazelles become faster. That is not by chance. And it has a direction. Now over billions of years conditions change so that gazelles might suddenly wake up and all the cheetahs are extinct - lucky them. But then some other hither-to lesser pressure will work on them.

Written communication is a sign from God, as is the diversity of species like camels, the diversity of the environment, weather, water, humans, monkeys, birds, insects, everything you see around you.

If God sent me a letter I might believe. But He has sent a variety of missives through intermediaries with no clear and obvious Divine origin (at least to me)

As for the diversity of species, this looks like an argument for evolution to me. After all diversity seems to be increasing.

I don't get any benefit from conveying this message to you and only God Almighty can open your hearts. I hope you both reflect on this and sincerely think about life as a whole rather than presenting arguments that are simply theoretical and unlikely.

If you are right you surely will. And either way, surely you must get some psychic satisfaction?

Not that it matters.

 

[root]

The computer argument was just to point out how ridiculous the proposition that everything we know today came to be my evolution, chance and without any direction or intentional creation. If I said that and was serious you would think I was a fool.

With the greatest of respect, all you are doing here is carrying the torch of ignorance, perhaps you should firmiliarise yourself to what evolution is and is not, at least then you would see the errors of your ways for yourself. This is not about your faith, this is your right. However, to base the theory of evolution as natural history is what creationists love to teach people such as you, since I would agree with what you have said in reference to the evolution out of nothingness, however, the point is evolution did not evolve out of nothingness which renders your point utterly useless.

 

[muslimahh]

With the greatest of respect, all you are doing here is carrying the torch of ignorance, perhaps you should firmiliarise yourself to what evolution is and is not, at least then you would see the errors of your ways for yourself. This is not about your faith, this is your right. However, to base the theory of evolution as natural history is what creationists love to teach people such as you, since I would agree with what you have said in reference to the evolution out of nothingness, however, the point is evolution did not evolve out of nothingness which renders your point utterly useless.

This point I understand. Thank you for putting it nicely, I appreciate that.
I took a university level course in evolution, speciation etc. etc. and did quite well, so I am somewhat familiar with the evolutionary theory.

Basically I was assuming that you were under the impression that you believe that evolution did evolve from nothing since it is the only way that you would have somewhat of an argument against the existance of God.

Please explain your belief concerning this so I can once and for all understand where you are coming from.

 

[root]

This point I understand. Thank you for putting it nicely, I appreciate that. I took a university level course in evolution, speciation etc. etc. and did quite well, so I am somewhat familiar with the evolutionary theory.

If that is true why are you even entertaining this following notion as described by yourself:

muslimahh - The computer argument was just to point out how ridiculous the proposition that everything we know today came to be my evolution, chance and without any direction or intentional creation. If I said that and was serious you would think I was a fool.

You have taken "Evolution" out of context and by doing so included a lot of theory that is not even part of the evolution theory. Do you believe that man was created as man or evolved into man from the very first single celled living organisms? since evolution is simply the following:

The change in allele frequency in a population over time.

Basically I was assuming that you were under the impression that you believe that evolution did evolve from nothing since it is the only way that you would have somewhat of an argument against the existance of God.

I have thought long and hard over your comment here. As I already stated, evolution does not start from the premis of "nothingness", how life started is still a scientific mystery and is part of the abiogenesis theory which is defined as:

the field of science dedicated to studying how life might have arisen for the first time on the primordial young Earth

Also note the "other" theories that are not part of the evolutionary theory:

1. The creation of the universe from nothing: the big bang (quantum physics)

2. The formation of the earth and sun: planetology (physics, astronomy, geology)

3. The creation of the different forms of life: evolutionary history (biology, phylogenetics, paeleontology)

Finally, to talk about all these issues in a unified manner is referred to as "Natural History" and as you can guess "Natural History" is defined as:

all the events stretching from the creation of the universe to the creation of contemporary species is 'natural history'.

So by saying evolution cannot explain how life evolved from nothingness, therefore evolution has "controversy" is nothing short of blatant misrepresentation of the truth. (which is often peddled by the creationists/ID hypothosis).

Please explain your belief concerning this so I can once and for all understand where you are coming from.

I believe that I just have.

 

[muslimahh]

scientifically, something cannot come out of nothing. Give me an example. Solutions need sovents and solutes, A zygote needs an egg and a sperm, two parents etc. etc. etc.

If something is unknown, such as how life itself came to being from something what is that something? where did that something orignate from? and that from? and that from etc. etc. There is no scientific process that shows something originating from nothing.

You are telling me that the evolutionary theory does not state life came from nothing but rather from something, we just don't know what. How does this negate the existence of a God? You are saying that you just don't know what this is. Perhaps God is the link you are missing here.

 

[mathematicci]

MODERATOR'S COMMENT: PLEASE DO NOT SIMPLY PASTE ARTICLES FROM OTHER WEBSITES ONTO THE FORUM. THE FORUM IS A PLACE FOR DISCUSSION. YOU ARE FREE TO RAISE YOUR OWN POINTS, OR ARTICULATE THESE ARGUMENTS IN YOUR OWN WORDS. JAZAKUMALLAHU KHAYRAN.

 

[root]

Hi Muslimahh

Can I at this point remind you of a question I posed for you, it was quite an important question I felt to understand how we take this debate forward and I did bolden it for you:

Do you believe that man was created as man or evolved into man from the very first single celled living organisms?

I have noted your points for future reference since I want to be clear what you believe in reference to the question above.

 

[muslimahh]

Hi Root,

I believe man has been created beginning from Adam and Eve, only God Almighty knows what they looked like and how similar they were to us. But yes, they were created through God's will in human form. I have an idea where you're going on this (i could be wrong) but to clarify my posts on evolution, much was for the sake of discussion, and furthermore, the explanation of speciation, adaptation to habitat etc., the way I see it may be possible is that it is the means to which God Almighty is maintaining, creating and controlling all of this earth if we as humans are correct.

What I strongly believe is that none of this is possible without a Creator, God.

Anymore clarifications I'll be willing to answer, hope this is what you were looking for.

 

[root]

I believe man has been created beginning from Adam and Eve, only God Almighty knows what they looked like and how similar they were to us. But yes, they were created through God's will in human form.

OK, you are stating that you believe in adam and eve. May I ask your source of why you beieve this to be true, and can you explain if "man" existed prior to adam and eve and given that the koran claims quite a lot of scientific knowledge could you care to give me a date that adam and eve existed as evolution also has an Adam & Eve, so if the Koran & Islam is in scientific harmony the two shouold match should they not? (is that logical to you).

 

[cool_jannah]

OK, you are stating that you believe in adam and eve. May I ask your source of why you beieve this to be true, and can you explain if "man" existed prior to adam and eve and given that the koran claims quite a lot of scientific knowledge could you care to give me a date that adam and eve existed as evolution also has an Adam & Eve, so if the Koran & Islam is in scientific harmony the two shouold match should they not? (is that logical to you).

dude, what are saying? you dont make sense at all. what does mentioning of date and time have to do with science? and for your information Qur'an is not a book of science, its a book of signs...
there is no need for it to explain in detail about the date and time of Adam and eve...thats the most useless point ive heard in this forum.
Adam and Eve were created and the Qur'an talks about them so that we learn lessons from them. It doesnt matter if they lived a million years ago or thousand years ago.
the bottom line is athiest worship a god - which is their own desires and whispers from satan. thats their god. no matter what they have to say. they cant proove this point wrong.

 

[The Ruler]

can you explain if "man" existed prior to adam and eve

der was NO life on earth b4 Adam n Eve....teh Qur'an states so....they wer the first cretions. :rollseyes

 

[muslimahh]

OK, you are stating that you believe in adam and eve. May I ask your source of why you beieve this to be true, and can you explain if "man" existed prior to adam and eve and given that the koran claims quite a lot of scientific knowledge could you care to give me a date that adam and eve existed as evolution also has an Adam & Eve, so if the Koran & Islam is in scientific harmony the two shouold match should they not? (is that logical to you).

That would be logical if we assumed that everything we know about science today is correct and perfect.

The Quran and all that is in it can be proven correct through the establishment in One God, and the truth of His last messenger (peace be upon him)

No one can logically prove the existance of Adam and Eve (peace be upon them both) however through logically proving the existance of God and the truth of the Quran, everything in the Quran is know to be true. The date of Adam and Eve's existence is not given in the Quran and thus, any guess towards this can only be a human-based guess prone to mistakes.

As I have, myself, a strong and sincere strength of faith in God and His Messenger, and the creation and existance of Adam and Eve is mentionned in the Quran, I know it is true. That is my proof. It can't be imposed on you if firstly you don't believe in either.

The difference between today's Western society and Muslims is that the West does not believe unless they scientifically prove everything, which in itself assumes that we have the means to do, assuming we are perfect in our knowledge and science to determine absolutely everything. Things like one's thought,inner emotions, and souls (if you believe in them) are all unseen and yet established for the large number of people.


Logically, its easy to prove the existance of God and the miracles of the Quran. Of course it takes some openmindedness and sincere drive for the truth on one's part, as well as God Almighty's Will.

I have a question, out of sincere curiosity, what do you think would be a proof for you towards the existance of God?