Prove that the Qur'an is NOT the word of God.

nimrod · Apr 12, 2006

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Ansar Al-Adl, I assume there is a better answer on the thread you cited than the one you offered here seems.
I will read the thread you linked.

Thanks
Nimrod

nimrod · Apr 12, 2006

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Ansar Al-'Adl, I read the thread you linked.
I didn't find my questions answered there. I have to admit I haven't read every link in your linked thread, maybe the answers are there.

As far as your question to my use of the word "Apostle". I am sure that as long as you have been debating with Non-Islamic folks, it would amaze me if you didn't understand what I posted and how I (a Christian) used the word, and its meaning.

Thanks
Nimrod

Abu Omar · Apr 12, 2006

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

nimrod said:
I will tell you why, for me, (to a moral certainty) the Quran is not God’s word.

It disagrees with God’s earlier words and laws with out any explainable reason.

How do you know that these didn't get corrupted? The Tawrah (Old Testament) was compiled hundreds of years after the events took place. Indeed Genesis is said to have been written (or possibly collected from earlier sources) about 440 B.C. This leaves lots of space for legends to evolve and corruption to take place.

Four examples:

#1Adulters under the Biblical Law are to be stoned. Islam teaches that one of the reasons it was revealed was to lead people back to the Biblical Law.

Yes, and Islamic law says that a married adulterer are to be stoned, whereas a non-married adulterer are to get 100 lashes.

#2 Folks having relations with animals are to be killed along with the animal. It is repeated several times in the Bible. Islam disagrees with God’s earlier word on that with no logical reason why. The old saw about “well your Bible is just corrupted and the original didn’t say that falls flat on its face on that one.

I don't know what Islamic law says about those who commit such acts.

#3 Maiming as a punishment is not seen in God’s word (other than in the narrow context of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth) before Islam.

Which Islamic punishment do you refer to as maiming?

#4 Islam records Jesus performing miracles as a child, if they were true why aren’t they recorded in the Bible? What logical arguement can be offered as the ones cited by Islam would have been removed by corrupt men, all the while these same men left all the rest in, both smaller miracles and larger miracles.

Well that argument doesn't hold water. Practically what you are saying is that the Bible says so, and therefore it is so, and the Qur'an says something, therefore it contradicts the Bible and is wrong.

Perhaps the miracles of Isaa (aleyhi salaam) as a chid is reported in some of those numerous Bible books that were omitted from the "Canon"?

On a more gray scale, I don’t understand how if Jesus was just a prophet, and Islam had a better prophet, why don’t we see Muhammad’s apostles doing as Jesus’ apostles doing?

You mean miracles?

Well Islam has something called Karamat al-Awliya (miracles of the saints) which happened during the time of Sahabah, their succesors, and which are continuing to happen even today.

Where are all the blind and lame that were healed? Where their signs and wonders? Where are the multitudes that were miraculously fed.

Miracles won't make people believe, and I doubt anyone on this forum is a Muslim purely because of the reported miracles.

But of course miracles do have a meaning. They strengthen the Imaan (faith) of those who believe. But I doubt they would bring a person from kufr to Imaan.

You might as well see this:

Some of the Miracles of Muhammad(P)

Ansar Al-'Adl · Apr 12, 2006

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Hi Nimrod,

nimrod said:
Ansar Al-'Adl, I read the thread you linked.
I didn't find my questions answered there. I have to admit I haven't read every link in your linked thread, maybe the answers are there.

I'm not sure what you were expecting to find in the link. I posted the link because, as I said, it contain my arguments in favour of the Qur'an and Islam.

As far as your question to my use of the word "Apostle". I am sure that as long as you have been debating with Non-Islamic folks, it would amaze me if you didn't understand what I posted and how I (a Christian) used the word, and its meaning.

Well that is the thing we have to be clear on, because in Islam there is no Prophet who comes after Muhammad pbuh, so you have to explain what you would expect of an apostle. Someone appointed and inspired by God? There is no such person after Muhammad pbuh,

Regards

hidaayah · Apr 13, 2006

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

greetings
plz do read this..:
Is bible the God's word? By sh.Ahmed Deedat
http://jamaat.net/bible/BibleIntro.html

nimrod · Apr 13, 2006

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Hello A Sister, Thanks for the reply. Can you offer specific reasoning’s to my posts?
The site you linked is sort of generic, Thanks.

Thanks
Nimrod

Mohsin · Apr 15, 2006

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

HeiGou said:
For instance, if the Quran has existed since the beginning of time, which we all agree is an Islamic belief, did it contain the Rajam sura before Muhammed was born? If not, in what sense can the Rajam verse ever be said to be part of the Quran?

Anyone know the answer to the question?

Ansar Al-'Adl · Apr 15, 2006

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Sorry I didn't see this question,

HeiGou said:
For instance, if the Quran has existed since the beginning of time which we all agree is an Islamic belief, did it contain the Rajam sura before Muhammed was born? If not, in what sense can the Rajam verse ever be said to be part of the Quran?

Not just the Qur'an, it is all God's speech which is eternal and uncreated.
As Shaykh Abdul-Wahhab At-Turayri mentions:

A verse that was at one time part of the Qur’ân is still Allah’s eternal speech, but no longer constitutes what we regard as the Qur’an. This means that certain [fiqh] rulings about it have been abrogated – the rulings that apply to the verses of the Qur’ân. For instance, it can no longer be recited in prayer or as an act of worship.

As an aside, the Islamic belief concerning God's speech is something that some Christians like to distort. Dr. Ali Ataie responds to these distortions here:
http://voiceforislam.com/ChristianJesusNotLikeQuran.html

Regards

afriend · Apr 15, 2006

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Why is the punishment for adultery different in the Bible from the Quran?

Peace Nimrod.

Well, this is the problem of the Bible, the Monks and priests etc. have changed the Bible to suit their way of living, it is because of this constant changing, we cannot trust the bible to be 'authentic'.

Regards.
Iqram.

*noor · Apr 15, 2006

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

The only true Words of God are in the Quran. For the Bible and the Torah have been changed many times. The Quran is the same as it was when Allah revealed it to Prophet Muhammad (pbub) through the Angel Gabriel. It stayed the same and will always stay as the true Words of Allah.
Oven 10 million Muslims around the world have memorized the Quran from cover to cover. There are no memorizers of the Bible or the Torah because the original texts don't exist anymore.

Hussein radi · Apr 15, 2006

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

Im Not Even Going To Read The Threat, Becuase I Know That The Quran Is God Words And God Is Perfect.

Ansar Al-'Adl · Apr 15, 2006

Re: Prove that the Quran Is not the word of God.

nimrod said:
You use as a reason for the differences cited, that "well men corrupted the Bible".

What logical argument can you defend as to the reason why the verses, concerning punishment for having relations with animals, would have been changed by men?

What would be their motivation for changing those verses?

I would love to discuss the preservation of the Bible, but this thread is for the Qur'an and any direct objections one may have against the Qur'an.

Where does the teaching of cutting off a hand and foot on opposite sides come from? The Bible says to make the thief repay 7 times the value of what was stolen. If the thief has nothing worth 7 times the value to pay for his crime, he is to work off the debt as a slave.
Is cutting off hands and feet not a teaching of Islam? Isn’t that using maiming as punishment?

Isn’t that punishment used for punishing stealing?

Yes, the amputation is a hadd punishment in Islam, but it is often quoted out of context and distorted. I've clarified this issue in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-islam/4498-shariah-law.html

Since we both agree that the Bible contains God’s words (although we disagree about just how many of the words are from God) and since the Bible came first. Then Islam is left in the position off needing to reconcile what Islam teaches with what the Bible teaches or reasonably explain what Islam disagrees with in the Bible.

Not at all. Muslims believe that since the Bible has mixed the words of men with the words of God, God has sent the Qur'an as a criterion to distinguish between the two. What is in agreement with the Qur'an is accepted and whatever isn't is rejected.

Peace

ps. I've moved your post to a seperate thread so that it can be discussed in more detail:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/18785-preservation-bible.html

mirage41 · Apr 24, 2006