Questions about Judaism answered by a Jew!

[north_malaysian]

i don't understand this. if it were true, most jews would not be recognized as having a right to israel! zionism, after all, was not founded by observant jews and was a political movement, not a religious one.

Zionism is religiously inspired political movement.

The secular Jews helping the religious Jews to come back to "home".

 

[lavikor201]

My particular question is: Why that would be necessary? Wouldn't the children of this couple be as Jewish as any Kohen Jew?

They only tested the Kohen! In a certain community they would test the people who claimed to be Kohen for DNA, and check the Torah observance of the people.

This not only to see if they are Jewish, but to find out if they were a "lost tribe" as well.

You have to understand, that if these people were not a lost tribe and no source on Judaism ever mentions converting them the traditional way, then they can practice Torah law all they want, they are still not Jewish unless they have proof they were properly converted or descend from ancient tribes of Jewry? Understand?

So, I don't understand how having Kohen DNA or not, has anything at all to do with one being Jewish?

When you visit a community, the Kohen of the community never marries converts or intermarries. Therefore, if the Kohen can trace his DNA to match other Kohen, then it proves the community is Jewish. If not, they practive Torah, but are not reconnized as Jewish because there is no proof to trace them back to the tribes, and they need to be converted again before being recongnized as Jewish.

It is a complicated buissness.

i don't understand this. if it were true, most jews would not be recognized as having a right to israel!

Example: 500 Jews live in a community. They are all not tested. The 10 Kohen are tested since they do not marry converts, and if they match DNA proving they are a lost tribe of Israel then the community is recongnized. If not then the people need to be converted to Judaism, because no official Jewish authority ever converted them, and we do not have proof they are ancestors of biblical israel.


It is a very complicated matter dealt with by smart people in the fields that are needed. I am just infering ect... I am doing my best to answer your questions, on something I do not have top level classified info on.

 

[Grace Seeker]

They only tested the Kohen! In a certain community they would test the people who claimed to be Kohen for DNA, and check the Torah observance of the people.

This not only to see if they are Jewish, but to find out if they were a "lost tribe" as well.

You have to understand, that if these people were not a lost tribe and no source on Judaism ever mentions converting them the traditional way, then they can practice Torah law all they want, they are still not Jewish unless they have proof they were properly converted or descend from ancient tribes of Jewry? Understand?



When you visit a community, the Kohen of the community never marries converts or intermarries. Therefore, if the Kohen can trace his DNA to match other Kohen, then it proves the community is Jewish. If not, they practive Torah, but are not reconnized as Jewish because there is no proof to trace them back to the tribes, and they need to be converted again before being recongnized as Jewish.

It is a complicated buissness.



Example: 500 Jews live in a community. They are all not tested. The 10 Kohen are tested since they do not marry converts, and if they match DNA proving they are a lost tribe of Israel then the community is recongnized. If not then the people need to be converted to Judaism, because no official Jewish authority ever converted them, and we do not have proof they are ancestors of biblical israel.


It is a very complicated matter dealt with by smart people in the fields that are needed. I am just infering ect... I am doing my best to answer your questions, on something I do not have top level classified info on.

Lavikor, I appreciate your attempt to provide a very detailed answer regarding how DNA helps to find the lost tribes. But, you don't have to. I read about it years ago. I actually understand the genetics part of it. You are working very hard at answering a question I am not asking.

I'm only wanting to know about what it takes to say that someone is a Jew. And I understand that if one's mother is a Jew, and you keep Torah that you are a Jew. That has been said more than once in this thread. And I also found it on Jewish websites.

Now, if one wants to prove that one is a part of one of the lost tribes, then I can see why one would need genetic testing. But to simply affirm that one is Jewish, that would not be necessary. I understand that there is a simple (serious and time consuming, but relatively straightforward) way of coverting to Judaism. So, surely if you go through all of that, and have your Bet Din, then you would be Jewish.

And then, as always, if this person was your mother, then once again, you would be Jewish. To prove that you are truly Jewish (not to prove that you are a member of a lost tribe), you should have to look any farther than either your mother, or your Bet Din. You got either one of those in your background, unless you've rejected your Jewishness, I would think that you were Jewish.

So, I was suggesting that perhaps my wife and I would convert. Once we had formally and official converted, and been declared Jewish by the Bet Din court, we would be Jewish. We would live Jewish life style and do everything that all other Jews do.

Do you agree, any children we would have in that scenario would also be Jewish? If you disagree, please, explain why.

 

[Abu Ibraheem]

Is there any proof that Jews are not allowed to intermarry, i sure would be interested in that.

 

[lavikor201]

Now, if one wants to prove that one is a part of one of the lost tribes, then I can see why one would need genetic testing. But to simply affirm that one is Jewish, that would not be necessary.

It would be, because we do not know if for example the mother of the mother of the Jew converted properly to Judaism. If you do not properly convert to Judaism, then not only are you not Jewish even if you keep Torah very strict, but you are commiting an abomination in G-d's eyes by keeping some laws that are reserved for Jews to follow only, like the laws of Shabbat.

Do you agree, any children we would have in that scenario would also be Jewish?

If one was to go about converting by an "Orthodox Conversion" then it would be recongnized by every Jewish group and the State of Israel.

Is there any proof that Jews are not allowed to intermarry, i sure would be interested in that.

Yes. This comes right from the Torah:

"Neither shalt thou make marriages with them: thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For he will turn away thy son from following Me, that they may serve other gods; so will the anger of the L-RD be kindled against you, and He will destroy thee quickly."
(Deuteronomy 7:3 & 7:4)

וְלֹא תִתְחַתֵּן, בָּם: בִּתְּךָ לֹא-תִתֵּן לִבְנוֹ, וּבִתּוֹ לֹא-תִקַּח לִבְנֶךָכִּי-יָסִיר אֶת-בִּנְךָ מֵאַחֲרַי, וְעָבְדוּ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים; וְחָרָה אַף-יְהוָה בָּכֶם, וְהִשְׁמִידְךָ מַהֵר
​

As you can see, the Torah is very clear that intermarriage is against the law of the Torah.​

 

[Grace Seeker]

It would be, because we do not know if for example the mother of the mother of the Jew converted properly to Judaism. If you do not properly convert to Judaism, then not only are you not Jewish even if you keep Torah very strict, but you are commiting an abomination in G-d's eyes by keeping some laws that are reserved for Jews to follow only, like the laws of Shabbat.



If one was to go about converting by an "Orthodox Conversion" then it would be recongnized by every Jewish group and the State of Israel.

Isn't what I lined out, which I got directly from a Jewish website, on the steps necessary to convert, "kosher" (yes, intentional pun) for converting?

 

[IzakHalevas]

Can you show me where you lined out the steps to conversion? Sine I converted to Judaism, I could tell you if they are correct or not.

____
What lavikor, is refering to, is the DNA tests are done because we cannot prove that the people in India for example went through a proper conversion or not because there was no authority on the matter to observe when they did if they converted.

Example:

Saul claims he is Jewish because his mother is Jewish. Yet when you look down the line of his family, Saul's Great, Great, Great Grandmother did not convert according to the laws of Halacha, therefore, the family is not Jewish. There is no way to know, if the conversion in his family was valid or not since in India there was no really Rabbinical authority.

Now let us say our next example Shlomo, claims he is Jewish because his mother is Jewish, then DNA testing proves his community in India is descended from the lost tribes of Israel. Therefore, the community is validated as Jewish because DNA shows his family never converted, they came from a line of Jews that dates back to Biblical Israel.

I hope you understand.

 

[YusufNoor]

Can you show me where you lined out the steps to conversion? Sine I converted to Judaism, I could tell you if they are correct or not.

____
What lavikor, is refering to, is the DNA tests are done because we cannot prove that the people in India for example went through a proper conversion or not because there was no authority on the matter to observe when they did if they converted.

Example:

Saul claims he is Jewish because his mother is Jewish. Yet when you look down the line of his family, Saul's Great, Great, Great Grandmother did not convert according to the laws of Halacha, therefore, the family is not Jewish. There is no way to know, if the conversion in his family was valid or not since in India there was no really Rabbinical authority.

Now let us say our next example Shlomo, claims he is Jewish because his mother is Jewish, then DNA testing proves his community in India is descended from the lost tribes of Israel. Therefore, the community is validated as Jewish because DNA shows his family never converted, they came from a line of Jews that dates back to Biblical Israel.

I hope you understand.

Shalom,

by those standards...King David(as) wasn't Jewish either...

^o)

Peace

 

[IzakHalevas]

by those standards...King David(as) wasn't Jewish either...

Care to elaborate, although I have a feeling I know what you will say.

 

[arabiyyah]

why do jews wear robes over there heads when praying?

 

[snakelegs]

lavikor,
sorry to be a pain in the neck, but i don't know if you understood my question.
you had written:

Israels descion was based on there Torah observance, and DNA.

my question was:

i don't understand this. if it were true, most jews would not be recognized as having a right to israel! zionism, after all, was not founded by observant jews and was a political movement, not a religious one.

you replied

Example: 500 Jews live in a community. They are all not tested. The 10 Kohen are tested since they do not marry converts, and if they match DNA proving they are a lost tribe of Israel then the community is recongnized. If not then the people need to be converted to Judaism, because no official Jewish authority ever converted them, and we do not have proof they are ancestors of biblical israel.

my point was that if torah observance was a condition for having a right to israel, most of the zionists would not qualify as it is a political and not a religious movement, and a large percentage of israeli jews are not torah observant, so how could that be a criteria for who has a right to israel?
also is DNA evidence now a requirement for aliyah?
todah!

 

[north_malaysian]

Is it sinful for observant Jews living outside Israel for not making the aliyah?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Can you show me where you lined out the steps to conversion? Sine I converted to Judaism, I could tell you if they are correct or not.

Sure. Right here:

As I understand it, the question at hand is: Who is Jewish?
Answer: Anyone with a Jewish mother and who keeps the Torah.


Scenario: Though not born Jewish, one's parents convert. They go through Bet Din. They practice Torah. They keep the Talmud. Their children are born after their converstion. And they raise their children Jewish.

In the first case, I said that the person has a Jewish mother. If the person has a Jewish mother, they have a Jewish mother. Can you think of a single case of a Jew who isn't Jewish? I didn't say a supposed Jewish mother, I said a Jewish mother, the real thing, genuine article.

Likewise, when I speak of conersion, I mean have truly converted. Dotted all the "i"s and crossed all the "t"s. Not someone who doesn't have their paperwork in order. I thought that was clear when I mentioned that the persons had gone through Bet Din. Don't those who oversee Bet Din take their responsibility seriously? They are not going to apporve of someone who is not going to be truly Jewish. And as I understand it, once you are approved by the arbitrators of Bet Din, then you are in fact, at that point of time and for all eternity truly Jewish. There aren't any trial runs -- that all takes place as part of the process before and leading up to Bet Din. Once you have passed Bet Din, you are entitled to documentation. Even if DNA can conclusively prove that you are a descendent of Pharoah, or the Philistine giant Goliath, my understanding is that once you have been approved at Bet Din that you are in fact a Jew.

What lavikor, is refering to, is the DNA tests are done because we cannot prove that the people in India for example went through a proper conversion or not because there was no authority on the matter to observe when they did if they converted.

Example:

Saul claims he is Jewish because his mother is Jewish. Yet when you look down the line of his family, Saul's Great, Great, Great Grandmother did not convert according to the laws of Halacha, therefore, the family is not Jewish. There is no way to know, if the conversion in his family was valid or not since in India there was no really Rabbinical authority.

Now let us say our next example Shlomo, claims he is Jewish because his mother is Jewish, then DNA testing proves his community in India is descended from the lost tribes of Israel. Therefore, the community is validated as Jewish because DNA shows his family never converted, they came from a line of Jews that dates back to Biblical Israel.

I hope you understand.

Yes. As I posted above, I do understand. I understood all of that the very first time, and have never asked a question regarding it, but thank for explaining it once again. I'm sure someone is benefiting from reading it.

I've got the answer to my actual question by now too. So no one has to explain anything more to me...please.

 

[IzakHalevas]

my point was that if torah observance was a condition for having a right to israel, most of the zionists would not qualify as it is a political and not a religious movement, and a large percentage of israeli jews are not torah observant, so how could that be a criteria for who has a right to israel?

I see your point, but Torah observance is not a quality that is needed to make Aliyah. Torah observance is a criteria that Rabbi's may look at when making a descion to see if a community outisde of Israel in a remote place like Ethiopia, or India is really Jewish, and related to the lost tribe, or it is a scam or the community has been practicing non-Torah for so long, that they have lost the Judaism in there families, since it is only a few generations before a Jewish family that does not practice Judaism any longer and finds another way of life no longer is considered to be Jewish. Communities in these areas will generally claim that they are descended from the "lost tribes" therefore having a right to be in Israel. Rabbi's will observe the traditions these communities have, and how close they are to Torah observance ect. Sometimes, these communities will practice rituals similar to Torah observance, but they are so far away from another Jewish community, there culture has gained different customs, and the Rabbi's descion is if they practice legitmaite Judaism or not.

Is it sinful for observant Jews living outside Israel for not making the aliyah?

There are different opinions on that.

why do jews wear robes over there heads when praying?

Those are Tallit, and only in some communities they are worn over the head while praying.

Picture of a Jew with a Tallit on while praying:

http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~zkessin/BerkatHaKohen/BerkatHaKohen-Pages/Image2.html

 

[north_malaysian]

There are different opinions on that.

Care to elaborate...?

 

[IzakHalevas]

Care to elaborate...?

1. Every Jew is commanded to live in the Land of Israel, and according to Nachmanides (In the book of Numbers where it says to drive out the idolators and establish monotheism in Israel where the one true G-d, is worshiped and revered, and not pagan idols.) this Mitzvah is counted as one of the 613 commandments. There is, however, disagreement amongst Halachic authorities whether this mitzvah is still in effect since the Holy Temple was destroyed and we were exiled from the land of Israel. (The exile makes it so many mitzvot are not aloud like Holy Temple rebuilt, and sacrifices are not aloud until the Moshiach comes.) Most authorities seem to agree that although we are currently not obligated to live in the Land of Israel, one who lives there is certainly fulfilling a great mitzvah.

2. Someone who lives outside of the Land of Israel but is in a position where he/she is a positive influence on others, helping them in studying Torah or doing mitzvos, it is his obligation to stay in his community and continue with this holy work. It is inappropriate to fulfil a (non-obligatory) mitzvah if it can have a negative affect on others.

3. If one cannot live in the Land of Israel, it makes no difference where he lives. Obviously one should strive to live in a country where he will be able to freely perform Mitzvot and study Torah.

 

[north_malaysian]

1. Every Jew is commanded to live in the Land of Israel, and according to Nachmanides (In the book of Numbers where it says to drive out the idolators and establish monotheism in Israel where the one true G-d, is worshiped and revered, and not pagan idols.) this Mitzvah is counted as one of the 613 commandments. There is, however, disagreement amongst Halachic authorities whether this mitzvah is still in effect since the Holy Temple was destroyed and we were exiled from the land of Israel. (The exile makes it so many mitzvot are not aloud like Holy Temple rebuilt, and sacrifices are not aloud until the Moshiach comes.) Most authorities seem to agree that although we are currently not obligated to live in the Land of Israel, one who lives there is certainly fulfilling a great mitzvah.

2. Someone who lives outside of the Land of Israel but is in a position where he/she is a positive influence on others, helping them in studying Torah or doing mitzvos, it is his obligation to stay in his community and continue with this holy work. It is inappropriate to fulfil a (non-obligatory) mitzvah if it can have a negative affect on others.

3. If one cannot live in the Land of Israel, it makes no difference where he lives. Obviously one should strive to live in a country where he will be able to freely perform Mitzvot and study Torah.

Ohhhh!!! Thank you.

 

[IzakHalevas]

Shabbat is coming soon, and I am going to be at a friend of mines house, therefore, this weekend I will not be available.

Peace be upon you all.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Shabbat is coming soon, and I am going to be at a friend of mines house, therefore, this weekend I will not be available.

Peace be upon you all.

and you

I was wondering why do jews wear those caps? is it because they believe moses did it? :?

thanks

 

[YusufNoor]

Care to elaborate, although I have a feeling I know what you will say.

Sabbat Shalom,

heh, ya you know! (Naomi)

Yes. This comes right from the Torah:
"Neither shalt thou make marriages with them: thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For he will turn away thy son from following Me, that they may serve other gods; so will the anger of the L-RD be kindled against you, and He will destroy thee quickly."
(Deuteronomy 7:3 & 7:4)


וְלֹא תִתְחַתֵּן, בָּם: בִּתְּךָ לֹא-תִתֵּן לִבְנוֹ, וּבִתּוֹ לֹא-תִקַּח לִבְנֶךָכִּי-יָסִיר אֶת-בִּנְךָ מֵאַחֲרַי, וְעָבְדוּ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים; וְחָרָה אַף-יְהוָה בָּכֶם, וְהִשְׁמִידְךָ מַהֵר

As you can see, the Torah is very clear that intermarriage is against the law of the Torah.
__________________

THAT, however, makes me wonder about Solomom. according to the Tanakh, his mum was Bathsheba. she's called the wife of Uriah, the HITTITE!


so, if Uriah was a non-Jew, how could she marry him if he wasn't Jewish. unless, she WASN'T Jewish. in which case...

Peace,