Right Ho! Paradise...Now what?

  • Thread starter Thread starter barney
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 162
  • Views Views 19K
Status
Not open for further replies.
:sl:
My turn.
Heaven = awesome place

This earth / life = crap hole

Hell = hole.

Explanation sil vous plate

Heaven/Paradise = Well, I can't really describe what it is since I've never been there...yet. However, I've been told that it is going to be awesome.
Hell? I haven't been there either, but apparantly the Lord of the Sith lives there and it's also supposedly friggin hot - ph5 will do jack fo your skin. Or so I have been told.

Now, placed with those two outcomes, which one do you think is worth travelling to? I don't need an explanation as to how my body will accept Heaven or hell or what chemicals in my brain will make me believe I am in Heaven or Hell. I just need to know how to get there.

See, it's dead freakin simple. I've noticed many non-religious folk like to complicate very simple things.
 
Greetings,
See, it's dead freakin simple. I've noticed many non-religious folk like to complicate very simple things.

It's very simple if you believe in it. I think what the non-religious questions in this thread have attempted to do is to find rational explanations for the beliefs about the afterlife shared by many here. That necessarily means going beneath the surface a little.

Peace
 
Greetings,


It's very simple if you believe in it. I think what the non-religious questions in this thread have attempted to do is to find rational explanations for the beliefs about the afterlife shared by many here. That necessarily means going beneath the surface a little.

Peace

Evenin' to ya Mr Czgibson.
The thing is, you don't need to have a rational explanation for the afterlife. Belief utilises emotion. Rationality utilises logic. Why do non-religious folk ask these questions relating to the afterlife? Because they don't believe in the actual concept but they want to understand it (it is part of being human). However, the mistake made is to use logic to understand what is clearly an emotion.
 
Greetings,
Evenin' to ya Mr Czgibson.
The thing is, you don't need to have a rational explanation for the afterlife. Belief utilises emotion. Rationality utilises logic. Why do non-religious folk ask these questions relating to the afterlife? Because they don't believe in the actual concept but they want to understand it (it is part of being human). However, the mistake made is to use logic to understand what is clearly an emotion.

Absolutely right, but the problem with that is you could justify almost any belief with that argument. For instance, suppose I told you that I believe the following:

All men are mortal
Robbie Williams is a man
Therefore Robbie Williams is immortal.

"But that's totally illogical!" you might say, and you'd be right, but since it's my belief, I'm sticking to it. The fact that it's my belief doesn't make it true, of course, but do you not see how this kind of thinking can be dangerous?

If someone believes that they will go to heaven straight after killing a group of people they believe to be oppressors, they are extremely dangerous, no? There is no possible rational argument that could convince them otherwise. Unfortunately, the number of such nutcases is large, and they are currently making our planet a much more dangerous place than it needs to be.

Peace
 
if something is theoretically true in large part, then I can accept that it is true for the whole, I need not have physical palpable evidence of it to be true..
take for instance a medication like acetaminophen /paracetamol/Tylenol which can cause acute hepatic necrosis in humans by allowing for the formation and accumulation of NAPQI in large quantities obviously depends on weight of individual and liver function other factors, age, renal plasma clearance etc etc. I don't believe that there is any conclusive studies ran on the usage of Tylenol in pts with Alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency.. so we blindly accept that we must apply extreme caution using such a med on a person likely to undergo liver cirrhosis because of such an enzyme deficiency .. we need not bring a large group of Alpha-1 antitrypsin deficient individuals and subject them to a clinical trial to prove a moot point.

By same token, the physical application of Islam that deal with this world have been tried and true, the message and the messenger are impossible to doubt or dispute, if you can, or have you'd have been successful in doing so in the many issues raised in the refutation section. But I am yet to see one of you do anything other than dance around an argument with disjointed and nonsensical logic, much like your analogy up above!

There is the portion that we reflect upon and asked to, there is the portion that we are to believe as it is part of the package. If the Promise of Allah even in the remote events manifesting in 'end of the world signs' alone have come to pass before our very eyes, then those promised to happen shall also come to pass. We don't need a chariot from another dimension to bow down prostrate. Every wonder in this universe is already strong evidence.

Being an Atheist means you don't believe in God it is true, but it also means youbear burden of proof to account for every 'natural phenomenon' happening in the world on its own volition and frankly, I am yet to read a convincing piece that accounts for how everything came to be or why.
So in the end you hold a belief there is no God.. that is fine and dandy.
We hold a belief that there is with all that, that would entail. And we can just amicably part ways!
 
Greetings,


Absolutely right, but the problem with that is you could justify almost any belief with that argument. For instance, suppose I told you that I believe the following:

All men are mortal
Robbie Williams is a man
Therefore Robbie Williams is immortal.

"But that's totally illogical!" you might say, and you'd be right, but since it's my belief, I'm sticking to it. The fact that it's my belief doesn't make it true, of course, but do you not see how this kind of thinking can be dangerous?
I agree to what is written and I understand the danger of this type of thinking.

If someone believes that they will go to heaven straight after killing a group of people they believe to be oppressors, they are extremely dangerous, no? There is no possible rational argument that could convince them otherwise. Unfortunately, the number of such nutcases is large, and they are currently making our planet a much more dangerous place than it needs to be.

Peace
I understand your argument and it is a very good point. From your example, we can logically work out that this person's belief is incorrect. However, that person is convinced that his/her belief is the undeniable truth - no amount of logic will change it. This doesn't mean that the action should be condoned, no. It simply means that his/her belief is not based on logic - even though the action is illogical.

There is a need to understand things - I do agree to this completely. However, one has to remember that humans are limited to what they undestand especially in regards to the use of logic. Since, however, we are referring to a place that none of us have been to (i.e. Heaven), we cannot explain it through logic, other than what is written in the holy text books, though some would argue that is not logic. Yet, people insist on bringing logic to the table when clearly emotion is required.
 
:sl:
My turn.
Heaven = awesome place
This earth / life = crap hole
Hell = hole.
this is a little off topic because i'm not talking about the afterlife.
i know this type of thinking is not uncommon among religious people. i find it incomprehensible and troubling.
how can you possibly believe this earth/life = crap hole?
god made this earth and gave you and me life, how can you disdain it? he made this planet and filled it full of beauty and things that are a source of constant wonder and awe.
you may think it is but a passing shadow compared to eternity but that does not mean that it is not wonderful and beautiful and full of miracles and much to be thankful for.
 
Lol I wouldn't say they are fluffy, because if you think about it... they are made of light.. right? ( lol ..that rhymed ) hahah that two!

anyway...

I think their wings are like straight rays of light not featherish, but Allah Knows Best.

Awww... I wanted fluffy wings~~~imsad
 
I'm curious as to how the mangoes taste better in heaven, since taste is a physical reaction between chemicals.
That is a curiosity you will unlikely be able to satisfy, here or in the here after..

And I'm still curious as to how gold is "superior" in heaven.
it goes for that too.. however, you can have different gradation in Gold right here on earth, I fail to understand why such an element would pique your curiosity in a different realm?


Roman emperors and noblemen would often throw parties where they had sex with a lot of beautiful women, ate the most delicious food imaginable, and bathed in pleasing baths attended by their slaves.
So?
Your description of heaven sounds exactly like this, except without the diarrhea afterwards.
here is a desciption you've never heard
kdgsjkljg jfkdsjgtiaiurue fdkjakiar8e8uiejefk dkjkajroiekak; fjdkfjkasjfah
is that better for you?

So let me get this straight.

Muslim men get a cadre of beautiful virgin women in paradise, in addition to their earthly wives.
Sure why not? Aside from that..some people differ on whether or not 7oor el3yen are only female.. there is a difference of opinion.. I am curious as to how many women you've been through in this life? or will be given for a life expectancy of say 70-80yrs as long as the blue pill keeps working for ya? you seem to begrudge people company for a life eternal...

Women, on the other hand, only get what they come in with.
There is a whole chapter on the akhira section of what we know women get. Fact is paradise has
'ma la 3ynon ra'at wla ozhnon sami3at' That which no eyes have seen or ears have heard!

Do women get slave-boys too, like the men? Can they have sex with them?

Everyone gets servant immortal boys!

What if you're an unmarried woman and you die and go to heaven?

Then you'll find a divinly chosen lover in heaven

So what happens in the meantime, before your bodies are raised?
You are in a place called barzakh.. similar to being in a sleep state only you are aware of your death and your punishment, like a bad nightmare from which you are to awaken to a harsh reality!


Okay, but without their bodies, how are the martyrs' souls going to enjoy all the delicious fruit and virgin women in heaven? It seems like all the pleasures in your heaven are physical, so why would you want to go there without a body?
Martyrs souls are transfigured into the bodies of green birds in paradise

What happens if you die before you're 33?
You are dead!


You can lobotomize someone and completely change their personality. People with brain damage, Alzeihmers, etc. have different minds than when before they had their disease. And as you learn things growing up, your brain physically changes too.

Your point being?

Since the mind, or the soul, seem wholly tied to the physicality of the brain, I'm curious as to what is the default "brain state" in heaven.

Who said the soul is tied to the brain? 'inma aroo7 min amr rabbi' the soul is a matter of God and can't be quantified or linked to any physical aspect of ourselves.

I'm also very curious as to WHERE your heaven is. It's obviously a physical place, and people go there with bodies. Is it like a floating continent in the sky? Is it on another planet? Does Earth magically turn into Heaven on the Last Day? I'm mostly familiar with Christian conceptions of heaven as a "spiritual" place (whatever that means), so this is all very new to me.

No earth will not turn into heaven, all the planets will explode, the earth will reveal its burdens, it is all in the Quran.. read it sometime, so you are not wasting everyone's time with your sophomoric talk through your hat ey?


بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
إِذَا زُلْزِلَتِ الْأَرْضُ زِلْزَالَهَا {1}
[Pickthal 99:1] When Earth is shaken with her (final) earthquake

وَأَخْرَجَتِ الْأَرْضُ أَثْقَالَهَا {2}
[Pickthal 99:2] And Earth yieldeth up her burdens,

وَقَالَ الْإِنسَانُ مَا لَهَا {3}​
[Pickthal 99:3] And man saith: What aileth her?

يَوْمَئِذٍ تُحَدِّثُ أَخْبَارَهَا {4}
[Pickthal 99:4] That day she will relate her chronicles,

بِأَنَّ رَبَّكَ أَوْحَى لَهَا {5}​
[Pickthal 99:5] Because thy Lord inspireth her.

يَوْمَئِذٍ يَصْدُرُ النَّاسُ أَشْتَاتًا لِّيُرَوْا أَعْمَالَهُمْ {6}
[Pickthal 99:6] That day mankind will issue forth in scattered groups to be shown their deeds.

فَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ خَيْرًا يَرَهُ {7}
[Pickthal 99:7] And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then,

وَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ شَرًّا يَرَهُ {8}
[Pickthal 99:8] And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight will see it then.


Another sura describing the event.. translated

[media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=LNhIgumNzOQ[/media]
.. you can pretty much find the answers all throughout the Quran...


What a sad state that day for a kaffir..


cheers!
 
Another sura on the day.. they are numerous, I can't imagine why some simply won't pick up a book and read it?



بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
إِذَا السَّمَاء انشَقَّتْ {1}
[Pickthal 84:1] When the heaven is split asunder

وَأَذِنَتْ لِرَبِّهَا وَحُقَّتْ {2}
[Pickthal 84:2] And attentive to her Lord in fear,

وَإِذَا الْأَرْضُ مُدَّتْ {3}
[Pickthal 84:3] And when the earth is spread out

وَأَلْقَتْ مَا فِيهَا وَتَخَلَّتْ {4}
[Pickthal 84:4] And hath cast out all that was in her, and is empty

وَأَذِنَتْ لِرَبِّهَا وَحُقَّتْ {5}
[Pickthal 84:5] And attentive to her Lord in fear!

يَا أَيُّهَا الْإِنسَانُ إِنَّكَ كَادِحٌ إِلَى رَبِّكَ كَدْحًا فَمُلَاقِيهِ {6}
[Pickthal 84:6] Thou, verily, O man, art working toward thy Lord a work which thou wilt meet (in His presence).

فَأَمَّا مَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ {7}
[Pickthal 84:7] Then whoso is given his account in his right hand

فَسَوْفَ يُحَاسَبُ حِسَابًا يَسِيرًا {8}
[Pickthal 84:8] He truly will receive an easy reckoning

وَيَنقَلِبُ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ مَسْرُورًا {9}
[Pickthal 84:9] And will return unto his folk in joy.

وَأَمَّا مَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ وَرَاء ظَهْرِهِ {10}
[Pickthal 84:10] But whoso is given his account behind his back,

فَسَوْفَ يَدْعُو ثُبُورًا {11}
[Pickthal 84:11] He surely will invoke destruction

وَيَصْلَى سَعِيرًا {12}
[Pickthal 84:12] And be thrown to scorching fire.

إِنَّهُ كَانَ فِي أَهْلِهِ مَسْرُورًا {13}
[Pickthal 84:13] He verily lived joyous with his folk,

إِنَّهُ ظَنَّ أَن لَّن يَحُورَ {14}
[Pickthal 84:14] He verily deemed that he would never return (unto Allah).

بَلَى إِنَّ رَبَّهُ كَانَ بِهِ بَصِيرًا {15}
[Pickthal 84:15] Nay, but lo! his Lord is ever looking on him!

فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِالشَّفَقِ {16}
[Pickthal 84:16] Oh, I swear by the afterglow of sunset,

وَاللَّيْلِ وَمَا وَسَقَ {17}
[Pickthal 84:17] And by the night and all that it enshroudeth,

وَالْقَمَرِ إِذَا اتَّسَقَ {18}
[Pickthal 84:18] And by the moon when she is at the full,

لَتَرْكَبُنَّ طَبَقًا عَن طَبَقٍ {19}
[Pickthal 84:19] That ye shall journey on from plane to plane.


فَمَا لَهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ {20}
[Pickthal 84:20] What aileth them, then, that they believe not

وَإِذَا قُرِئَ عَلَيْهِمُ الْقُرْآنُ لَا يَسْجُدُونَ {21}
[Pickthal 84:21] And, when the Qur'an is recited unto them, worship not (Allah)?

بَلِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ يُكَذِّبُونَ {22}
[Pickthal 84:22] Nay, but those who disbelieve will deny;

وَاللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يُوعُونَ {23}
[Pickthal 84:23] And Allah knoweth best what they are hiding.

فَبَشِّرْهُم بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ {24}
[Pickthal 84:24] So give them tidings of a painful doom,

إِلَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَعَمِلُواْ الصَّالِحَاتِ لَهُمْ أَجْرٌ غَيْرُ مَمْنُونٍ {25}
[Pickthal 84:25] Save those who believe and do good works, for theirs is a reward unfailing.

[media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=SRpjqMDbIms[/media]


*****

reflect some people on the final destination...imsad

cheers
 
I really doubt any human can or every has been able to understand eternity. we are too wrapped up with the what we perceive as time and have no way to see beyond that which we can measure.
 
I really doubt any human can or every has been able to understand eternity. we are too wrapped up with the what we perceive as time and have no way to see beyond that which we can measure.

Agreed.. yet some here seem adamant on getting a super human explanation and if it were to be offered it would be met with the same mockery & derided with contempt.. tell me then what is the point?

I think another section for the kuffar would be great, although I can't imagine how that would differ from an atheist forum where they can meet with like minds and simply mock the delusions of everyone in the world is minus their own kin all 7% of the illuminati ;D
:w:
 
I really doubt any human can or every has been able to understand eternity. we are too wrapped up with the what we perceive as time and have no way to see beyond that which we can measure.
I completely agree. I have also thought the same regarding our inability to comprehend Allah given our human limitations regarding the Unseen.
 
how can you possibly believe this earth/life = crap hole?
god made this earth and gave you and me life, how can you disdain it? he made this planet and filled it full of beauty and things that are a source of constant wonder and awe.
you may think it is but a passing shadow compared to eternity but that does not mean that it is not wonderful and beautiful and full of miracles and much to be thankful for.

Yeh, that's true. But there is a lot of evil too!
 
yeah...i don't think we should be complaining about this life.

Is just that most muslims prefer jannah than this dunya (world).
 
Yeh, that's true. But there is a lot of evil too!

yes there is.
this concept is something that i've thought about for quite awhile so i have kidnapped aamirsaab and started a new thread.:playing: hope it gets approved before judgement day. :playing:
:hiding:
 
i know this type of thinking is not uncommon among religious people. i find it incomprehensible and troubling.
how can you possibly believe this earth/life = crap hole?
god made this earth and gave you and me life, how can you disdain it? he made this planet and filled it full of beauty and things that are a source of constant wonder and awe.
you may think it is but a passing shadow compared to eternity but that does not mean that it is not wonderful and beautiful and full of miracles and much to be thankful for.
Yes, I agree with you Snakeleggs. This life and this world definitely have more value than a toilet. This life is an amazing gift even with all of its suffering and pain there is still a lot of beauty and kindness. However, we Muslims believe that as compared to the Hereafter, the suffering even of the Jews in the Nazi death camps of WWII does not hold a candle to that of those in Hell. Likewise, the pleasures enjoyed by the richest kings on earth can't compare to what will be enjoyed by the lowest ranking person in Heaven. As I said, this life has tremendous value in that how we spend it determines our Eternity.
 
i have created a thread on this subject.
i am coming to understand that i am perhaps not seeing it properly and it is not as it seems to me.
syilla pointed out that my perception of "this world" is not the same as islam's.
when i think of "this world" i think of all the beauty god has given us, not about material wealth and greed, lust etc etc.
 
erm... i don't think we will have wings.... :D but probably you can fly if you want to. :p

half right...

If you think about it, WE are actually supposed to be the ones to have featherish wings if we had any, becuase we are more organic based.

don't get me wrong i don't care about wings, i'd rather without them, ....uhmmm.. but they still look cool though..
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar Threads

Back
Top