Saudi justice

[islamirama]

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?
Now, I don't think he was discussing the roast he left outside the other day...:mmokay:

The sheik then said: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."

He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men.

"It is said in the state of zina (adultery), the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement (igraa)."

:X

I know sisters from that community who know the sheikh. The media twisted everything to make him look bad. It's all political games going on there, election time is near.

 

[ayesha309]

i think you make a good point sis Jayda; that Saudi men are trying to PROTECT their women, not control them. although that's not necessarily for Saudi men only; i see that occurring in Muslim families.
as for the other debate, i think a man is least likely to rape a women who is wearin an abaya, and who covers her hair and face; simply becuase he finds nothing of hers attractive. and if she exposes the slighest bit that maybe one of the reason for her rape.
Hence Islam wants to protect its women and that is one of the reasons why Islam requires the women to cover themselves. and Allah knows best

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I know sisters from that community who know the sheikh. The media twisted everything to make him look bad. It's all political games going on there, election time is near.

The controversy sorounding his statements took place more than a year ago..

 

[islamirama]

The controversy sorounding his statements took place more than a year ago..

yes i know, howard was beating the drum of local "sleeper cells" like US at that time. He was scaring his public into giving him more power. And media was helping him by making this sheikh look like a "radical" who wouldn't fit in to aussie society. Like i said, i know the locals there who are more aware of the facts when anyone here.

 

[Tania]

In Saudi its not compulsory to wear abaya :? Can you go, like muslim woman, on the streets wearing other type of clothes more open :? Is this allowed :?

 

[~Taalibah~]

Not 100% sure. I'll have to check cus there might be excpetions to the rule etc.

Isn't it death for adultery?

The men that raped her should be lashed 200 times! As well as jailed double the time!
Although i still think she should get punished for being out with men, 200 lashes do not sound the correct method, at all.

Tania
In Saudi its not compulsory to wear abaya Can you go, like muslim woman, on the streets wearing other type of clothes more open Is this allowed

I wish i knew! When i went there 8 years ago all the women dressed in abaya and hijaab. Now i believe it is not always the case...

 

[Amadeus85]

Maybe the thing is that the victim was actually a shiite woman and the rapists were sunni men. Maybe thats why Saudi court made such decision.

 

[barney]

"Theres noone late at night getting Rowdy.
On the streets or the houses in Saudi
Where the rule of the law is enforced
By the whip and the chain and the sword."

 

[S_87]

"Theres noone late at night getting Rowdy.
On the streets or the houses in Saudi
Where the rule of the law is enforced
By the whip and the chain and the sword."

haha but totally untrue. night is when the action starts :shade:and they may not be drunk but V rowdy

oh tania

In Saudi its not compulsory to wear abaya Can you go, like muslim woman, on the streets wearing other type of clothes more open Is this allowed

abayas are necessary. in more open places like riyadh and jeddah i believe tourists can get away with not covering their heads but they must be dressed modestly.

anyway, from arabic sources it seems- the woman was having an affair with the man she was with (she was married)
she and her lover confessed to a relationship- the one thing that spared them from being given punishment of death is no proof of sexual intercourse.
the men found them together she was not clothed.
it has not been confirmed whether she was raped the men said that in forced confession.

 

[جوري]

the operative word here is 'produce not witnesses' I believe rape is punishable by death...Allah a3lam of course but this was the subject of a controversy recently.

cheers

 

[Whatsthepoint]

yes i know, howard was beating the drum of local "sleeper cells" like US at that time. He was scaring his public into giving him more power. And media was helping him by making this sheikh look like a "radical" who wouldn't fit in to aussie society. Like i said, i know the locals there who are more aware of the facts when anyone here.

You could be right, news are often biased towards a certain political option. However, in a free country like Austalia, there's also independent, anti-governent, anti-Howard press, which he doesn't control..

Yesterday, the mufti defended the sermon about "adultery and theft", a recorded copy of which has been obtained and translated by The Australian.

Sheik Hilali said he only meant to refer to prostitutes as "meat" and not any scantily dressed woman with no hijab, despite him not mentioning the word prostitute during the 17-minute talk.

Now, that's word-twisting.

Muslim community leaders were yesterday outraged and offended by Sheik Hilali's remarks, insisting the cleric was no longer worthy of his title as Australia's mufti.

Young Muslim adviser Iktimal Hage-Ali - who does not wear a hijab - said the Islamic headdress was not a "tool" worn to prevent rape and sexual harassment. "It's a symbol that readily identifies you as being Muslim, but just because you don't wear the headscarf doesn't mean that you're considered fresh meat for sale," the former member of John Howard's Muslim advisory board told The Australian. "The onus should not be on the female to not attract attention, it should be on males to learn how to control themselves."

Australia's most prominent female Muslim leader, Aziza Abdel-Halim, said the hijab did not "detract or add to a person's moral standards", while Islamic Council of Victoria spokesman Waleed Ali said it was "ignorant and naive" for anyone to believe that a hijab could stop sexual assault.

"Anyone who is foolish enough to believe that there is a relationship between rape or unwelcome sexual interference and the failure to wear a hijab, clearly has no understanding of the nature of sexual crime," he said.

Ms Hage-Ali said she was "disgusted and offended" by Shiek Hilali's comments. "I find it very offensive that a man who considers himself as a mufti, a leader of Australia's Muslims, can give comment that lacks intelligence and common sense."

As you said: locals know best.kay:

I don't think he fits into australian society...I don't think muslims fit into any western society. And I think you feel the same - after all you wanna change some of its very foundations. Of course that doesn't mean you aren't suppossed to live here. It doesn't mean you're not entitled to free speech. Thus I don't really think the apology was necessary no matter what the sheikh said..

 

[جوري]

In Saudi its not compulsory to wear abaya :? Can you go, like muslim woman, on the streets wearing other type of clothes more open :? Is this allowed :?

depends on where in Saudi Arabia...I lived in Riyadh and visited my aunt in Jeddah which is port city in western Saudi Arabia on the Red Sea.. and women there didn't dress conservatively at all... I can't say they were wearing bikinis on the beach, but many weren't in abayas and some didnt even have their head covered...of course there are other places like Dammam, Khobar, and Dhahran where I have never been, and not quite sure of their habits..

I kind of miss Saudi Arabia at times...

 

[InToTheRain]

There is a lot of central info missing in this article. I have been snooping around and some have posted regarding this case from Arab news sources:

[PIE]The woman in the car was married. She was having an affair with the man whose car she was in. She ADMITTED to having an illicit affair. The husband found out two months AFTER the event happened, and he is the one who complained.

So what happened was that the young married woman was having an affair and she went to the spot in the middle of the night.

The group of men saw the couple having sexual relations at that spot, and according to them (the group of men), they saw her naked. According to the testimony of the men, the woman panicked and she offered herself to the men if they would remain quiet about the whole thing, as she was worried that her husband would find out. Some of the men said that they weren't even there for this incident, and others confessed to only having witnessing it. And even those that confessed to this said they were forced into confessions by the police.

That was the story given by the men. As one brother pointed out on another forum, how could the judge order the DEATH penalty on these men based on the single testimony of a young immoral woman? A woman who did not report the incident herself but rather was confronted about it months later?

I knew of a classmate in America who was having relations with a female, and they were being intimate in her house when her mother walked in on them. She immediately threw the boy off and yelled "rape!" And the guy was charged even though it was consensual.

So this woman did not go to the police herself after this event happened, but rather this is what she told months afterward when confronted about it by her husband.

And then the woman betrayed her Ummah by taking it to the media and making it a media scandal. She spun the story in her favor, and tried having the media influence the judge. She wanted the media to become the judge, jury, and executioner. And so this was why the punishment against her was doubled, as a penalty for trying to influence the courts through the media. In the process, she made a mockery of Islam, plastering this over BBC news. I remember joking around with my Pakistani friend that he could easily get a VISA to America if he just claimed that he was gay and being persecuted in Pakistan for that. Then of course some group in America would make a media skeptical out of it and he'd get that visa and a standing ovation. My point is that you can easily get the kufaar to cheer for you, get what you want, and the only one who suffers is the image of Islam which is then mocked in the media.

The truth is that we don't know if the men raped her or not. The woman says they did and they deny that. Working against the woman is the fact that she didn't report the case and only claimed it after the fact. But what was uncontested fact was that the woman was having an illicit affair outside of her marriage, and so the judges punished her for what they knew for a fact.

[/PIE]

As far as I know, the punishment for fornication before marriage is Lashes. The death penalty applies for adultery after marriage provided there is 4 witnesses, the same for rape. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[NoName55]

There is a lot of central info missing in this article. I have been snooping around and some have posted regarding this case from Arab news sources:
.......

As far as I know, the punishment for fornication before marriage is Lashes. The death penalty applies for adultery after marriage provided there is 4 witnesses, the same for rape. Correct me if I am wrong.

I seem to remember me succeeding in getting deleted, a thread on this very case not too long ago, In which the non-Muslims were feigning excessive outrage at the alleged barbaric treatment of this woman. and I remember Br. Woodrow clarifying it, to paraphrase him: if a criminal (according to legislation of a country) is victim of a crime, does that wipe clean their offence?

Question:

in the ultra "civilised" west when an inmate (be they in police cells or in jail) suffers rape or assault at hands of other inmates or guards, are their crimes forgiven since they have been offended against too?

 

[Jayda]

si,

that is a logical point. but corporal punishment is cruel and barbaric... i think more than anything that is what nonmuslims would find most abhorrent. whether it is for being a rape victim or for commiting adultery, lashes are barbaric.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[barney]

Lashes are Barbaric in modern day sensibilities only.
the British army finally stopped flogging in 1907 replacing it with Field punishment Number One, (being tied to a howitzer Wheel in the blazing Sun).
Admittedly public pressure had been exerted since the 1830's.

What I'm saying is flogging may be seen as barbaric today, but it has divine approval in both Islam and Christianity and judism.

It brings about the question. Are we in banning flogging in the west, going against gods specific command?
The obvious answer is YES, of course we are. To say that flogging is barbaric is calling God barbaric. The God portrayed in scripture is just, as he says that he is just. Therefore Flogging is just and we are erring in our ways to reject it.

All that the Saudi's are doing is carrying out his instructions.

 

[جوري]

I guess that is the point.. you humiliate and hurt someone with rape, hopefully you'll get humiliated in public and in like wise painful way not just physical but emotional-- because that is exactly the impact you leave on the person whom you violated... Have you ever met a rape victom? There is no word to describe someone so broken.. frankly until you see it, you'd want to find the sob and release your rage in exactly such a fashion..

easy to deem something as barbaric when sitting comfortably and safe with your loved ones, not understanding the impact of the event... Sometimes I feel people sympathize more with the criminal than the victim..sobhan Allah
cheers

 

[Woodrow]

We shall now return to the original topic.

 

[barney]

The threads about Saudi Justice, we have to have a bit of Flogging and hanging in such a thread.

You wouldnt have a Thread on USA justice without the odd electric chair creeping in a bit eh?

 

[Jayda]

couldn't agree more.. it seems every thread has this way about it.. you could be headed for the Bonnie Banks of Loch Lomond and still take a detour to Saudi or Iran or Islam's so-called 'brutal barbarous and savage system'

it is getting tedious

strangely, this was my original point... about stereotypes and how saudis are often as outraged by these kinds of things as westerners are... what happened to the anchor, ms baz, is a really good example. there was public outcry all over the kingdom.

corporal punishment is a separate matter... i consider that cruel, nobody will change my mind... but you may create a new topic on it if you wish.

que Dios te bendiga