Saudi justice

[Jayda]

The threads about Saudi Justice, we have to have a bit of Flogging and hanging in such a thread.

You wouldnt have a Thread on USA justice without the odd electric chair creeping in a bit eh?

also cruel and barbaric

 

[Woodrow]

I am currently in the process of trying to return this thread to topic. I should be finished in a minute. Until then

:threadclo:

 

[Woodrow]

Thread is now reopened. If I over looked any posts that need deleting please PM me. I am baby sitting grand kids but I will get back to this thread asap if needed.

 

[Jayda]

Lashes are Barbaric in modern day sensibilities only.
the British army finally stopped flogging in 1907 replacing it with Field punishment Number One, (being tied to a howitzer Wheel in the blazing Sun).
Admittedly public pressure had been exerted since the 1830's.

What I'm saying is flogging may be seen as barbaric today, but it has divine approval in both Islam and Christianity and judism.

It brings about the question. Are we in banning flogging in the west, going against gods specific command?
The obvious answer is YES, of course we are. To say that flogging is barbaric is calling God barbaric. The God portrayed in scripture is just, as he says that he is just. Therefore Flogging is just and we are erring in our ways to reject it.

All that the Saudi's are doing is carrying out his instructions.

I guess that is the point.. you humiliate and hurt someone with rape, hopefully you'll get humiliated in public and in like wise painful way not just physical but emotional-- because that is exactly the impact you leave on the person whom you violated... Have you ever met a rape victom? There is no word to describe someone so broken.. frankly until you see it, you'd want to find the sob and release your rage in exactly such a fashion..

easy to deem something as barbaric when sitting comfortably and safe with your loved ones, not understanding the impact of the event... Sometimes I feel people sympathize more with the criminal than the victim..sobhan Allah
cheers

hola,

barney, i was under the impression you are not a christian... according to the Catholic faith not everything in the bible is necessarily a command to follow that behavior. the Church teaches, under the authority of God, that mistreating people in that manner as well as the death penalty are cruel and sinful behavior. needless to say it is not an insult to God to go against corporal punishment, and according to my beliefs it is not His will.

purestambrosia i think you touched on two of the many reasons lashing is wrong... it is not about justice it is about releasing rage, which is wrong and only cuts deeper. but you also said 'in exactly such a fashion' which (perhaps i misinterpreted) i think is the essence of the problem... responding cruelty with cruelty.

rapists should be punished for their crimes, but not in ways that compromise the sanctity of life and with the hope that someday they will understand, repent and seek forgiveness. lashing is about anger, justice is something else. i do not know if you have ever seen the results of someone being excoriated but it is impossible to see without feeling sympathy for them... no matter who they are or what they have done.

people are humans, they have value and that value must be honored regardless of who they are. when we treat other people in ways we would call cruel even if we did it to animals then we ignore that value.

but that's all i have to say on the subject... obviously lashing is not the topic, but i do have reasons for calling this practice barbaric.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[north_malaysian]

Do Saudi courts have official law reports.... if they do maybe we could study the case from A to Z regarding to the facts of the case, defence, evidence, witnesses etc.

 

[barney]

hola,

barney, i was under the impression you are not a christian... according to the Catholic faith not everything in the bible is necessarily a command to follow that behavior. the Church teaches, under the authority of God, that mistreating people in that manner as well as the death penalty are cruel and sinful behavior. needless to say it is not an insult to God to go against corporal punishment, and according to my beliefs it is not His will.

Nope im not Christian.
Moses got his commands to Stone and Flog from God for the specified offences. The whole point of a religion is to trust worship and OBAY your chosen deity.
The Deity has told us what he wants, if a particular faith chooses to ignore it or beleive it's not his will, then fine, im actually happy about that, cos i'm here working on a sunday and the last thing i need is the local christians to burst through my Ward's front doors and start lobbing bricks at me because my mum chose to have a cross painted on my head with water when i was 6 months old.

What I'm saying is , if God has ultimate authority, and we beleive his commandments, why are we chucking out the ones that become socially unacceptable?

 

[islamirama]

There is a lot of central info missing in this article. I have been snooping around and some have posted regarding this case from Arab news sources:

[pie]The woman in the car was married. She was having an affair with the man whose car she was in. She ADMITTED to having an illicit affair. The husband found out two months AFTER the event happened, and he is the one who complained.

So what happened was that the young married woman was having an affair and she went to the spot in the middle of the night.

The group of men saw the couple having sexual relations at that spot, and according to them (the group of men), they saw her naked. According to the testimony of the men, the woman panicked and she offered herself to the men if they would remain quiet about the whole thing, as she was worried that her husband would find out. Some of the men said that they weren't even there for this incident, and others confessed to only having witnessing it. And even those that confessed to this said they were forced into confessions by the police.

That was the story given by the men. As one brother pointed out on another forum, how could the judge order the DEATH penalty on these men based on the single testimony of a young immoral woman? A woman who did not report the incident herself but rather was confronted about it months later?

I knew of a classmate in America who was having relations with a female, and they were being intimate in her house when her mother walked in on them. She immediately threw the boy off and yelled "rape!" And the guy was charged even though it was consensual.

So this woman did not go to the police herself after this event happened, but rather this is what she told months afterward when confronted about it by her husband.

And then the woman betrayed her Ummah by taking it to the media and making it a media scandal. She spun the story in her favor, and tried having the media influence the judge. She wanted the media to become the judge, jury, and executioner. And so this was why the punishment against her was doubled, as a penalty for trying to influence the courts through the media. In the process, she made a mockery of Islam, plastering this over BBC news. I remember joking around with my Pakistani friend that he could easily get a VISA to America if he just claimed that he was gay and being persecuted in Pakistan for that. Then of course some group in America would make a media skeptical out of it and he'd get that visa and a standing ovation. My point is that you can easily get the kufaar to cheer for you, get what you want, and the only one who suffers is the image of Islam which is then mocked in the media.

The truth is that we don't know if the men raped her or not. The woman says they did and they deny that. Working against the woman is the fact that she didn't report the case and only claimed it after the fact. But what was uncontested fact was that the woman was having an illicit affair outside of her marriage, and so the judges punished her for what they knew for a fact.

[/pie]

As far as I know, the punishment for fornication before marriage is Lashes. The death penalty applies for adultery after marriage provided there is 4 witnesses, the same for rape. Correct me if I am wrong.

I think that about sums it up. Nothing more we can add to it other than just our opinions on limited evidence. She clearly was in the wrong, and saudi was actually lenient on her for adultery due to lack of evidence or she could've face death penalty. Anyways, lot we still don't know so best leave this where its at with what the bro provided to shed some light on it.

(requesting thread close)

 

[Tania]

There is a lot of central info missing in this article. I have been snooping around and some have posted regarding this case from Arab news sources:

Are you sure its still the same case :?
1.I blame the society for what happened. May be she was forced to marry with that man and she had no option for divorce. In this days, in Saudi can you divorce from the husband or you have to wait until he makes the first move :?

2. Giving to a woman a sentence of 200 lashes, they are sentencing her to death.

3. I no wonder the woman hide the rape because only the thought of lashes ....

4. If the women in certain cities can dress humble but not according to the muslims rules how are this mutaween protecting the virtue and preventing the vice. I can't find the royal decree m/37 from 1980 in which must be write what are doing this people exactly.

 

[Malaikah]

anyway, from arabic sources it seems- the woman was having an affair with the man she was with (she was married)
she and her lover confessed to a relationship- the one thing that spared them from being given punishment of death is no proof of sexual intercourse.
the men found them together she was not clothed.
it has not been confirmed whether she was raped the men said that in forced confession.

How disgusting!!!!! They made it sound like the girl was totally innocent. This is seriously just pathetic, lowest example of crappy biased journalism I have ever seen!

 

[tomtomsmom]

None of us know what really happened. We can read all the stories about it that we want but none of us were there and none of us know this woman. It is not our place to pass judgment on her.

Personally, I don't care if she was walking down the street butt naked! It still doesn't give anyone the right to violate her that way!!!!!

 

[islamirama]

None of us know what really happened. We can read all the stories about it that we want but none of us were there and none of us know this woman. It is not our place to pass judgment on her.

Personally, I don't care if she was walking down the street butt naked! It still doesn't give anyone the right to violate her that way!!!!!

Like you said, none of us know what really happend. So you can't say "violate her" at all. As posted here, she was having an affair and after being discovered, she offered her self (not violated) to hide her act from her husband and law. And then she cries rape after 2 months later? when her husband finds out? And then she tries to use the media coverage to pressure the law to let her get away?

But like you said, no one really knows the exact details. But the information provided by Rashid does shed some light around the case. Best we all can do is just let is be and move on (to other threads).

 

[wilberhum]

A prostitute being with a client and backs out at the last minute but the man continues anyway.

That doesn't mean he is right, but the woman is obviously less innocent than a woman minding her own business doing her shopping and gets plucked off the street, and the men would deserve different punishments.

I wouldn't call it inciting rape, but it is putting ones self at risk of rape, and making it easier for the rapist.

So the example you gave is not an example of "inciting rape". But I ask what was an example. So could you give us an example of a woman "Inciting Rape"?

 

[جوري]

^^^ lol yes.. but the photos wouldn't be apropos for an Islamic website...

cheers

 

[barney]

^^^ lol yes.. but the photos wouldn't be apropos for an Islamic website...

cheers

Your going to show a picture of a woman in a tight skirt?

Are they inciting rape?

[PIC REMOVED]

This lady has her hair on show and her shoulders exposed. Basically she is screaming to all men..Rape me, because I am a slattern. She deserves therefore what she receives from men, who are merely responding in a natural way to her debauchery.

 

[islamirama]

Your going to show a picture of a woman in a tight skirt?

Are they inciting rape?


This lady has her hair on show and her shoulders exposed. Basically she is screaming to all men..Rape me, because I am a slattern. She deserves therefore what she receives from men, who are merely responding in a natural way to her debauchery.

if think she's pretty, you got bad taste man :thumbs_do

 

[Malaikah]

So the example you gave is not an example of "inciting rape". But I ask what was an example. So could you give us an example of a woman "Inciting Rape"?

No, because I never suggested that women incite rape.

 

[barney]

if think she's pretty, you got bad taste man :thumbs_do

Were you assessing a strange, and indeed kuffar woman, in a sexual way?:muddlehea

 

[islamirama]

Were you assessing a strange, and indeed kuffar woman, in a sexual way?:muddlehea

i was assessing your taste in women by the selection of your picture

btw, people of book are halaal for us to marry among eace:

 

[جوري]

if think she's pretty, you got bad taste man :thumbs_do

I know I was about to say the same thing...barn just wants us to think that, that is as far as his chaste mind will take him...

 

[barney]

Oh my mind is like a sewer according to religious hypocritical standards. Just like the rest of humanitys. The varience is in how much it is hidden and ignored.