Sharia law - do you really want it?

[aamirsaab]

I don't really want to get embroiled in this argument but surely you could apply that reasoning to Judaism and Christianity and conclude that they should have been forgotten long ago due to the obvious corruption and false teachings therein?

You could level a similar argument (that can be discussed in another thread by all means) but my point was surely if muslims didn't question their beliefs (as Thinker was pressuming), the religion (Islam) wouldn't have lasted this long, with so many members.

....You criticise me for making presumptions or assumptions, I take on board your criticism but in defence I would argue that without all the evidence and total conclusion, we all make presumptions and assumptions whether we want to or not. I wonder (with respect) whether you are making assumptions about me?

Your apologies are accepted. I don't really want to get into the philosophy of presumptions and assumpts (that's a topic in and of itself) but my point was you were receiving hostility DUE to your endless presumptions.

...Are you suggesting that I have posed a question for no reason other than to cause annoyance?

On the topic of sharia law I have given about 40 posts. 10 of them on this thread alone. I seriously and honestly doubt there is anything I have yet to give my 2 cents on in relation to sharia. You are more than welcome to visit and read those posts.

Now, I gave you the benefit of the doubt in creating this thread and allowing you to post your questions. But, here we are at 18 pages and you are still making the SAME presumptions you were on the first page. It is becoming increasingly annoying and difficult to lend you any more benefit of doubt when all you seem to be doing is presuming.

Are you suggesting that if a question is likely to annoy somebody it should not be asked notwithstanding that the person asking has a genuine desire to learn the answer?

As I said above: it becomes a matter of frequency. You've continually posted presumptions and assumptions about muslims. I let it slide for around 10 pages (by page 5 or so I'd pretty much said all I needed to on the topic...the rest were clarifications/expansions) and thought hey maybe he'll get bored or people will stop posting.

I have explained several times in this thread why I asked the question starting the thread and I can assure you I didn’t ask it to cause annoyance,

That is fine. But, as I stated at the beginning of this post: continually making assumptions about muslims on a muslim forum can become an annoyance - especially after so many members have tried to explain to you where you are going wrong.

I am genuinely surprised by some of the answers (but respect their views) and I am genuinely surprised that the question kicked off 18 pages of debate;18 pages later I can see how the question has raised as many questions as it has answered but I didn’t know that would happen when I posed the question and I still have lots I'd like to know.

Again, I (and I assume the rest of the forum members) have no problem in you asking questions. But please do not make presumptions about 1.7 billion + people about the religion they follow on a daily basis.

Ask a question by all means, but don't assume you know the answer before it is given - that gets annoying and can be very insulting (especially if you repeat it!). And when you get the answer try to understand it. If you don't understand it, by all means ask for an explanation - just don't go back the the same presumptions you had BEFORE given the answer. Otherwise we go round in circles.

What essentially has been happening is you have asked a question with a presumption in mind. You have been given appropriate and many answers but still carry the same presumption. Then you have asked a similar question - and to the muslim members it looks like you are not paying attention to the answers you have received.

Perhaps if you dropped the presumptions and just stuck to asking the question on your mind (which I have no problem with, in fact I recommend you and all non-muslim members do so - that's the point of this forum: generate understanding of Islam with both muslim and non [or 'dawah']) we wouldn't be having this very lengthy discussion.

To make it easier for you and me (or anyone else who would like to answer your questions), try sorting the questions. For instance: ''what is the actual islamic ruling on adultery'' Or ''what exactly is a sharia state?''

Get the foundations sorted (for your own sake - not mine; I got a book on sharia already so any problems I go look it right up ) just so you have the basic understanding of sharia and then we can move on to the more advanced topics (such as divorce, inheritance, capital punishment and so on and so forth).

As is common on the internet (especially in regards to sharia), you want to dive right into the deep end but don't fully understand what you are swimming in. Sharia is a big topic so don't expect one word (or 100% clear-cut) answers - especially on the more advanced topics. They will take time to digest and understand (even more so if you don't have the basic understanding to begin with)

I apologise for any hostility I may have given to you in my posts (in addition to this considerably long post) but I hope that the information within this one has helped clear things up. And, more importantly, that now we can actually discuss the topic at hand and better your understanding of it.

Who knows, maybe you will become a muslim as a result.

 

[aadil77]

Best Sincere Advice,
Ask questions without stating your own assumptions first, because there can always be something you state which can be inaccurate and will annoy some members and offend others. Its not really that difficult, just keep your assumptions to yourself and there will be no problems. :thumbs_up

peace

 

[Danah]

I hope that we can move to a more effective discusion now....I am welling to help anyone want to learn with a pure intent to really understand

 

[alcurad]

but reading books is not sufficient, for example the punishment for adultery is NOT stoning, married or not married does not matter, the evidence for it is not strong. it is lashing, around forty was what the prophet decreed.
some say it was a verse in the qur'an, if so, why was it removed? not that the qur'an was actually changed,,all the hudood are mentioned in the qur'an, stoning is not one of them.
we need to really study and question before referring to anything other than the qur'an or the prophet's dictations in regards to the shari'a.

 

[جوري]

^the larger part of making a forum is to have such discussions, some people can't take it though.
I don't see a point to closing the thread right away if someone makes a post or two regardless of how unnecessary they seem.
my two yen,,

is it a communication issue?..
I find the things that offend atheists hilarious at best, while they like wise I am sure feel baffled at things that offend us.. people consecrate different things, 1- because well, they are people and try with their might they are still slaves to the human condition (with all that it entails)
2-because it is instinctive to hold something in high regards, it is a mere issue of what and then the act of transference!

my two cents..

 

[alcurad]

^well said , bias is the main reason, I believe we should not be offended by a few words as it were,,

 

[جوري]

^^ :hmm: I am never offended, I am just pugilistic by nature ;D

 

[alcurad]

I see, but that was a sentence I liked and wished to share,,

 

[جوري]

^^ it is all good share share :smile:

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Sixteen pages later and I now have the impression that some women do and some others see (or hope that) the Taliban’s interpretation of sharia as some aberration that’ll go away and be replaced by some other model.

The model would be the proper interpretation and implementation of the Shariah, not the abolishment of it as you’re so god dang itching for it to be. I mean I would have though after 1400 years of Islam going strong, you wudda gotten the picture that its here to stay! Don’t bother fighting a battle ya gna lose!
Seriously thinker, have you had a female relative convert to islam or something! I never seen such ridiculous insecurity!

I believe that men and women should be equal, one should not have the power to compel the other to do anything, and one should not have less freedom or less authority than the other. Without equality there is no freedom.

That comment is doesn’t even make sense. Children and parents aren’t equal, each have different rights over one another, do you then claim there is no freedom?
If men and women were equal why don’t we share the same (public) toilets, and why do we have segregated sports matches?

By asking such questions I have been accused of attacking Islam and of trying to make Islamic teaching look uncivilised. I am not trying to achieve anything other than understanding.

So go start a thread/s in the Learn about Islam section. The math really aint that hard…

[..]niaively thought that women would not want to live under such a regime.

Hmm, yes I empathies! I really do. It kind of reminds how I naively thought that women who apparently are liberated and have more freedoms would release themselves from the “jaws” of a vicious society, and not let themselves be used and abused by men who obviously couldn’t care less about them.
People like you shock me! Really, I don’t understand why you don’t see it oppression and sexist to the man that he doesn’t wear the hijaab…in fact, speaking of Muslim men, I can’t help but wonder why you don’t actually try to change their minds about Islam, you know with the whole marrying of four women and every other paranoia you seem to have of them being controlling. I mean I would have thought maybe you would of have kindly preached to them as well. Was I being naïve in that respect also?
See what you’re getting your knickers in a knot over and completely can’t stand is the fact that Muslim women love their religion whilst you strongly believe it should be otherwise! So you come up with some pathetic attempt to change our minds, and get pissed off when we remain firm. Like a child chuckin a tantrum!
Contradictory to popular belief, a Muslim woman actually chooses to dress modestly. I have female relatives who are born and raised in the west, cover from head to toe, and their Muslim families were against them doing so? Explain that to me?
You live in the West; the west has apparently more freedom, right? So what would be stopping women who supposedly live under oppression not to take her hijaab off in place of freedom?
A dead serious question for you Thinker-really I’m genuinely asking here: do you accept your daughter/any female relative (namely a teenaged/young relative female) to walk outside in a miniskirt knowing that men are visual critters and hence are going to look at her in a perverted manner. Men that aren’t only her age, but possibly twice and thrice her senior as well? Do you as her father/uncle or whatever the case may be, accept this? Really don’t ignore this, I want to know?

Again some Muslims can’t understand why someone like me who are not going to convert to Islam is spending his time trying to understand Islam and Muslims. Why do I persist – because there are 2 million Muslims living in my country and I believe it is imperative that we find a way to live together peacefully and I believe that can only be attained through understanding and that ‘understanding’ goes both ways.

So do you preach this on the streets of France, or just on an Islamic forum?

I have also been accused of hating Islam of course I do not; I am however worried by some Muslims’ interpretations of Islamic teachings, I do find repugnant those how advocate mindless violence, segregation, racism and hypocrisy

So if you don’t hate Islam, you wouldn’t mind say your wife, who apparently knows her divorce rights/rights to assets and all that jazz that you boast about, divorce you, get married to another (Muslim) man, say an Afghani, perhaps even OBL himself and cover her head, possibly her face! You wouldn’t mind this at all? go on walk the walk.

 

[Uthman]

To make a case for the Islamic view of gender equality, I will use an analogy.

Would a Non-Muslim want to put a man and a woman in the same boxing ring and allow them to fight each other? If not, does that mean that they are not equal?

 

[Danah]

^ or may be we should ask why men and women don't compete together in the Olympic Games?

 

[Gator]

Gator...........I dont know why you are requesting each one to come up with a percentage rate?
Do you think that I will come up with something I made???
pick one of those statistics posted on the internet by official organizations and see what it said!! I don't bring statistic from my pocket.

I'm interested in people's perceptions, especially people with a different worldview than mine. That's why I'm on these boards.

From you posts, it seemed that these problems affected a very large percentage of the population. I just wanted to get more exact idea of your perception of these problems.

No worries, I was just asking.

Thanks.

 

[Danah]

^ anyways...........
but you can't ask each one to bring rates for those problems, it's like you are not trust people and think that each one will come up with different numbers and statistic according to his/her perceptions
No doubt that all those peoblems are affecting the society except the cancer i guess, that is caused by either inheritance or any proplem in cells division so I think it has nothing to do with society laws or morals

 

[YusufNoor]

Greetings respected moderator,

At the risk of incurring your wrath (which I really do not want to do) I would like to examine your observations on my post and the issues surrounding it.

I can assure you and anybody else that I do not wish to offend anybody. I do think about what I say and consider whether it might cause offence. Sometimes when I am not sure I ask myself the question “should any reasonable person be offended by what I am saying?” if there is any doubt I don’t say it. What I can say is that I have never knowingly said anything with the intention to offend and I am always ready to apologies if I have caused offence.

hmm, let's see. first you ask a question and then after we answer, you give a reply that comes of like" JEEZ, what are you all STUPID or something?"
golly gee, i just don't see how that could offend someone...

I caused offence to one member in this thread for failing to answering questions posed in certain posts and if you look back I apologised for that. Perhaps because of that post I was careful to try and answer all the questions posed by SAYA and it is my answer to one of those question that I have seemingly offended you and for that I apologies. You criticise me for making presumptions or assumptions, I take on board your criticism but in defence I would argue that without all the evidence and total conclusion, we all make presumptions and assumptions whether we want to or not. I wonder (with respect) whether you are making assumptions about me?

you forget your own assumptions, eg, that Islam DOESN'T make sense, that we, as MUslims, MUST BE WRONG! maybe you should change your user name "LITE thinker", eh?

In your example of my wrong doing you say . . . “If I go into a Christian forum and start posting: ''why do you believe in a man god, I think it is silly and in my book no one should do that'' (or words of similar effect) - I would get banned. And rightly so because what I have just done there is cause an annoyance...for no reason. First off, I can’t see why a Christian forum would be offended by that question – maybe my skin is too thick but I can’t see why the question would cause offence. Next (at the risk of making assumptions) you say that you would rightly be banned for asking the question because you had posed the question solely to cause annoyance. Whereas I cannot see how that question would cause annoyance I agree that it would be wrong to pose questions solely for the purpose of causing annoyance. Are you suggesting that I have posed a question for no reason other than to cause annoyance? Are you suggesting that if a question is likely to annoy somebody it should not be asked notwithstanding that the person asking has a genuine desire to learn the answer? I have explained several times in this thread why I asked the question starting the thread and I can assure you I didn’t ask it to cause annoyance, I am genuinely surprised by some of the answers (but respect their views) and I am genuinely surprised that the question kicked off 18 pages of debate;18 pages later I can see how the question has raised as many questions as it has answered but I didn’t know that would happen when I posed the question and I still have lots I'd like to know.

Peace

Thinker

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

i assume that this is yours also:

Again some Muslims can’t understand why someone like me who are not going to convert to Islam is spending his time trying to understand Islam and Muslims. Why do I persist – because there are 2 million Muslims living in my country and I believe it is imperative that we find a way to live together peacefully and I believe that can only be attained through understanding and that ‘understanding’ goes both ways.

unless you take a COMPLETE look at these issues, you won't understand much. Islam is based upon the Qur'an, and the "Living Qur'an," Muhammad ibn Abdullah, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam. the Qur'an was revealed over a period of 23 years, this makes Seerah and Early Islamic history VITAL in understanding the purpose of some Ayats. in addition to the Qur'an we also have Ahadeeth, which include Hadith Qudsi; these are direct Revelations from Allah, but NOT a part of the Qur'an. they generally start off with the Rasulullah saying, "Allah says..." this coupled with the Sunnah of the Prophet gives us Islam.

what we need to do, to try to understand both Qur'an and Hadeeth, along with Sunnah, is focus on how these we understood by the Sahabah -the Companions of the Prophet, May Allah be Pleased with them. this takes time and patience.

INSTEAD, you SEEM to be here in order to say, "look, this is France. why don't you just let me show you how friggin ridiculous your ways are, and then you can just assimilate and everything will be fine".

or maybe you could change your user name to Transparent Thinker, hmmmm?

or best, Kuffar Thinker.

May Allah make EVERY ONE of your descendants Muslim!

 

[transition?]

Yes, I would like Shar'ia Law.

The more and more I learn about Islamic Law, the more I realize it isn't some strict one way thing. I've realized how much study and time has gone into debating the laws in Shar'ia Laws. Scholars do debate them according to different hadiths and ayats in the Quran.

I encourage people to take some Islamic Law classes. You'll realize there's more to them that the few punishments you do know about. Shari'a is more comprehensive than most people bother to research on. We only think "punishments" when we think "Sharia." But the Sharia system covers so much more.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

To make a case for the Islamic view of gender equality, I will use an analogy.

Would a Non-Muslim want to put a man and a woman in the same boxing ring and allow them to fight each other? If not, does that mean that they are not equal?

Yeah, but what non-Muslims argue is that some of the sharia rules fo not accurately corrspond to the differences between the sexes as well as discriminate individuals that are different from the average member of their gender.

 

[Thinker]

A dead serious question for you Thinker-really I’m genuinely asking here: do you accept your daughter/any female relative (namely a teenaged/young relative female) to walk outside in a miniskirt knowing that men are visual critters and hence are going to look at her in a perverted manner. Men that aren’t only her age, but possibly twice and thrice her senior as well? Do you as her father/uncle or whatever the case may be, accept this? Really don’t ignore this, I want to know?

In an earlier reply to a question from SAYA in this thread I drew attention to how we (human beings) are easily influenced by those around us and the environment and culture in which we live. You have a clear and rigid idea of what is and what is not ‘decent’ appearance for females. I put it to you that, you have that belief because is what you have been taught and it may be correct in certain places and certain cultures.

During the Victorian era in my country, women would dress covering all of their body exposing nothing but their hands and face with a dress that extended down to their ankles and men used to speak excitedly about seeing a lady's ankle. At the same time women in Africa were walking around wearing nothing but a loin cloth and those same Victorians sent missionaries to Africa to explain to them why that was indecent exposure. Do you think that, at that time African men were excited by seeing ankles, or even the whole leg or even the breasts; even today there are tribes in south America where the females wear nothing but loin cloths and none of the men are excited by what they see. I consequently put it to you that what is sexually exciting to men is not what they see but what they don’t see.

You ask whether I would allow my daughter to wear a mini-skirt. As it happens I don’t have a daughter and I certainly would have no authority over any other female relatives. I have two sons. I saw my role as a parent as providing a secure and facilitating environment in which they could enjoy their youth whilst acquiring the knowledge, experience and skills necessary to equip them to live their own lives when the reached adulthood. I would have done the same for my daughter. I taught my teenage boys about how to deal girls and I am sure my wife would have taught our daughter how to deal with boys. Teenagers want to fit in with their peers and if their peers wore mini-skirts, I am sure my daughters would have wanted them. My wife would have taught them how to manage themselves in situations that might present problems in that regard. With regards to men looking at my daughter in a perverted manner it’s like the females in Africa walking around topless, if they are all topless nobody looks any more so it follows that if the fashion is mini-skirts and all the young girls wear them – nobody looks. And, by the way, when I was a teenager, the fashion was mini-skirts and all the girls wore them and I can’t ever remember thinking of them as being sexually exciting, it was just a fashion.

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Yeah, but what non-Muslims argue is that some of the sharia rules fo not accurately corrspond to the differences between the sexes as well as discriminate individuals that are different from the average member of their gender.

That's because your looking at the branches of this religion rather then the foundation.

The branches that i'm talking about are fiqhi (jurisprudence) issues, the same goes to Thinker.

The foundation of this religion is the perfect and complete concept of god, which if you knew and understood you wouldn't have any disagreement once you come to the branches.

 

[Zafran]

Salaam

yes there is Fiqh and before we can start talking about Sharia we have to know what Fiqh is(jurisprudence). If you look at history and Sharia you will see that it was done in a very different ways (eg Madhabs).

peace.