Sharia law - do you really want it?

[mayza]

no thanks...

 

[Shukri18]

Thinker, Keep things in context and don't speak for definite unless you have understood fully the Islamic rulings. That's if shes divorcing for wrong reasons such as pronouncing divorce while she was emotional or if she's divorcing for no reason at all.

There are even hadeeth which state that women wanted a divorce during the lifetime of the Prophet (saaws) and they had their reasons, and the divorce took place.
QUOTE]


Indeed but my point is - and tell me if I am wrong; a woman cannot get divorced without the permission of her husband or the imam (who is a man) and a husband doesn't need his wife's permission and if he wants a divorce no pone can stop him.

A husband can not divorce his wife for no reason, and he needs perission from the imam (who is a man) as well.
"A man must not divorce his wife to bring harm upon her, as this constitutes an act that demolishes this noble establishment, breaks the woman’s heart, and possibly separates the woman from her children without any reason. Thus, the separation between a man and his wife [without just reason] was considered one of the major and grave sins, and one of the most beloved actions of Satan, as was narrated in a number of hadiths. It is also forbidden for a woman to ask for a divorce without a sensible reason.

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Among lawful things, divorce is most hated by Allah" (Reported by Abu Dawud). The spouses should avoid divorce as much as possible. If they have difficulties and problems they should try to work out their differences and seek help from their relatives, friends, or professional counselors. However, if the differences are irreconcilable then divorce is permissible, but it should be done in a decent manner" -Sheikh Ahmad Kutty

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

In an earlier reply to a question from SAYA in this thread I drew attention to how we (human beings) are easily influenced by those around us and the environment and culture in which we live. You have a clear and rigid idea of what is and what is not ‘decent’ appearance for females. I put it to you that, you have that belief because is what you have been taught and it may be correct in certain places and certain cultures.

Firstly, It has nothing to do with culture or whatnot, fearing for one’s daughter (as a father) is something instinctual regardless of who you are, what culture/religion your from. It’s the same, for example, if one saw his wife being eyed out by another man, his natural instinct right would be to do something like beat him up, right?

And secondly, I’ve seen male men (non-Muslim, in the west) who fear for their daughters who dress immodestly. I’ve even heard young girls say (along the lines of) “if I go out like that, my dad would kill me.” Explain?

So that whole culture logic is flawed, quite frankly.

During the Victorian era in my country, women would dress covering all of their body exposing nothing but their hands and face with a dress that extended down to their ankles and men used to speak excitedly about seeing a ladies ankle.

What you also failed to mention is that the attire of the women in The Victorian era were also body hugging, not loose like that of a Muslim girls attire, hence one would be able to see the outline of their body shape. Not to mention they used to dress in “suffocating” corsets and have their hair neatly styled and pinned back. That would create an image in his mind of what she may look like. A girl doesn’t actually have to have her skin uncovered, but a mere body shape would draw the attention of a man. If it were otherwise, then fashion designers wouldn’t put such a huge emphasis on designing clothes that compliment body shape.

I consequently put it to you that what is sexually exciting to men is not what they see but what they don’t see.

Oh yeah a guy is really gna get excited about a women he can’t see! (Huh?!) Does that even sound logical to you?!

Can i ask you, if it isn’t a personal question, what initially attracted to you to your wife?

At the same time women in Africa were walking around wearing nothing but a loin cloth and those same Victorians sent missionaries to Africa to explain to them why they shouldn’t so that. Do you think that, at that time African men were excited by seeing ankles, or even the whole leg or even the breasts; even today there are tribes in south America where the females wear nothing but loin cloths and none of the men are excited by what they see.

Ummm yes! Firstly, just because you don’t express how you feel about something (or someone), it doesn’t mean you don’t feel that way. It just means you keep it to yourself: $
Secondly What prevents the men and women from speaking/acting indecently towards one another is that people that come from tribes, etc have a stricter sense of principles/decency...and of course honour! A guy knew who another guy’s wife/sister was and backed off. All these things are like unspoken laws if you like...everyone knows what their roles are. Ive noticed even in some non-Muslim society’s men are also strict in regards to who/how one acts towards his wife/sister, etc. Ive noticed that in European (eg Greek/Macedonian) communities. Even if intermingling and dressing the way you described exists, they defiantly still have their limits! No man would dare mess with another man wife/sister/niece, etc...
Whereas In the west, there’s really no such thing. Thats what differentiates them, even if they dressed the way they did then men still had that decency to back off another’s “territory,” whereas in the west, this stuff doesn’t bother them, most of the time they’d go for it regardless!

You ask whether I would allow my daughter to wear a mini-skirt.
As it happens I don’t have a daughter and I certainly would have no authority over any other female relative.

Im not asking about the authority you may/may not have...im asking how naturally you would react to the aforementioned scenario.
What about your wife then?

With regards to men looking at her in a perverted manner it’s like the females in Africa walking around topless, if they’re all topless nobody looks any more so it follows that if the fashion is mini-skirts and all the young girls wear them – nobody looks.

If that was truly the case, then a husband and wife would lose attraction in one another! They’re around each other more or less aaaaall the time, no?

 

[Thinker]

Firstly, It has nothing to do with culture QUOTE]

I am happy to pursue this question with you but I am not sure what else I can say. From what you say it appears that you believe that what is modest and decent is a matter of absolute fact and I believe (apart from the obvious) that it is largely cultural. Of course every parent is concerned for the safety of their children but we differ on the question of how men look at women; the degree of licentious lust amongst men; whether it is the responsibility of women to not provoke that lust and how they should do that. All these things we differ on in that you appear to believe they are fact and I believe they are largely cultural.

That said and to bring this discussion back on topic, and on the topic of dress and dressing modestly, the sharia law would make it law that women dress in a certain way. In broad terms that style of dress is what is you consider modest and modest being a style of dress that covers women in a way that does not attract the (lustful) attention of men. So perhaps you could explain to me why you need to cover your hair, and not your eyes. I have never read any Islamic text which described hair as the feature of women that attracts men but I have read about women’s eyes being a feature of attraction (see below text). And, if it’s about not attracting the attention of men how come Muslim women wear make up?

“So (it will be). And We shall marry them to Hoor (fair females) with wide lovely eyes” [al-Dhukhaan 44:54] “They will recline (with ease) on thrones arranged in ranks. And We shall marry them to Hoor (fair females) with wide lovely eyes [al-Toor 52:20]

P.S. I may be wrong but I feel anger in your words, do you get angry at anyone who questions your beliefs or is it just me?

 

[Thinker]

A husband can not divorce his wife for no reason, and he needs perission from the imam (who is a man) as well.

Thanks for your helpful reply - I may be wrong but I don't think I said that he doesn't need a reason, I think I said that he doesn't need to tell her the reason (but as I said I may be wrong)

Thanks

 

[ahmed_indian]

yes...i do really want it!

only for the pleasure of my Rabb - ALLAH

i m getting fed up with so much sins and crimes

 

[Uthman]

And, if it’s about not attracting the attention of men how come Muslim women wear make up?

Thinker, I request once more that you please judge Islam by it's actual teachings rather than what some Muslims do.

Thanks

 

[Muhaba]

in an earlier reply to a question from saya in this thread i drew attention to how we (human beings) are easily influenced by those around us and the environment and culture in which we live. You have a clear and rigid idea of what is and what is not ‘decent’ appearance for females. I put it to you that, you have that belief because is what you have been taught and it may be correct in certain places and certain cultures.

During the victorian era in my country, women would dress covering all of their body exposing nothing but their hands and face with a dress that extended down to their ankles and men used to speak excitedly about seeing a lady's ankle. At the same time women in africa were walking around wearing nothing but a loin cloth and those same victorians sent missionaries to africa to explain to them why that was indecent exposure. Do you think that, at that time african men were excited by seeing ankles, or even the whole leg or even the breasts; even today there are tribes in south america where the females wear nothing but loin cloths and none of the men are excited by what they see. i consequently put it to you that what is sexually exciting to men is not what they see but what they don’t see.

one reason why islam makes women cover themselves (so that men will marry women and take care of them, provide for them, respect them, etc instead of using them and treating them like **** then dumping them) .

you ask whether i would allow my daughter to wear a mini-skirt. As it happens i don’t have a daughter and i certainly would have no authority over any other female relatives. I have two sons. I saw my role as a parent as providing a secure and facilitating environment in which they could enjoy their youth whilst acquiring the knowledge, experience and skills necessary to equip them to live their own lives when the reached adulthood. I would have done the same for my daughter. I taught my teenage boys about how to deal girls and i am sure my wife would have taught our daughter how to deal with boys. Teenagers want to fit in with their peers and if their peers wore mini-skirts, i am sure my daughters would have wanted them. My wife would have taught them how to manage themselves in situations that might present problems in that regard. With regards to men looking at my daughter in a perverted manner it’s like the females in africa walking around topless, if they are all topless nobody looks any more so it follows that if the fashion is mini-skirts and all the young girls wear them – nobody looks. And, by the way, when i was a teenager, the fashion was mini-skirts and all the girls wore them and i can’t ever remember thinking of them as being sexually exciting, it was just a fashion.

. . .

 

[جوري]

^^ I am not sure that is the whole reason women are asked to cover?

from the Quran:

The 59th verse of Surah al-Ahzab says,[5]
“ Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Qur'an 33:58–59)
I think the dress code above all is to maintain a woman's dignity and anonymity.. I also call your attention to the incident with Saida Aisha RA.. when someone spread a rumor of her honor!

“ O Wives of the Prophet, ye are not like any of the (other) women. If ye do fear (Allah), be not too complaisant of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak ye a speak that is just. Abide still in your homes and make not a dazzling display like that of the former times of ignorance: and establish regular prayer, and give regular charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye Members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless. Communicate what is taught to you of the verses of God and the wisdom revealed by Him [to your visitors]. The Almighty is very discerning and all-knowing. (Qur'an 33:32–33)


I don't think that women should await men to take care of them and provide for them (that is my personal opinion)
and Allah swt knows best

 

[alcurad]

I don't think that women should await men to take care of them and provide for them (that is my personal opinion)
and allah knows best

agreed, being helpless and silent is anything but following Shari'a.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

So perhaps you could explain to me why you need to cover your hair, and not your eyes.

is this question for real? really, is it? :uuh:

I have never read any Islamic text which described hair as the feature of women that attracts men but I have read about women’s eyes being a feature of attraction (see below text).

yes you have. only, being the "sheikh" you apparently are, seem to think it has to be mentioned specifically...again common sense would dictate that since we are told to cover our hair signifies that it is an attraction, otherwise would it be logical to cover it?

And, if it’s about not attracting the attention of men how come Muslim women wear make up?

im sorry, isnt this thread called

Sharia law - do you really want it?

Thinker, I request once more that you please judge Islam by it's actual teachings rather than what some Muslims do.
Thanks

ditto to that!

P.S. I may be wrong but I feel anger in your words,

P.S i may be wrong, but i feel that you want me to be angry

do you get angry at anyone who questions your beliefs or is it just me?

do you get the kicks out of asking the same question having the same question explained to you over like a hundred times, and then re ask it?
do you like receiving that attention, or is it just towards Muslims...

 

[Muhaba]

My point was that God knows what will be attractive to men because He created them. He knows their nature.

As Thinker said, i consequently put it to you that what is sexually exciting to men is not what they see but what they don’t see.

If this is true, then it shows once again that Islam is the religion from the Creator who knows our nature. when Islam makes women cover, it benefits women because men are more attracted to women when they cover up.

Also, when women cover, men get married and care for their wives and children. but when women don't cover, they only get used.

women do need to be cared for at least during pregnancy and during the time they have to stay at home to raise the children. Women shouldn't have to worry about earning money in order to raise children. In the West, women get pregnant by the boyfriends, then the boyfriend leaves and the woman is left to take care of the baby all by herself.

^^ I am not sure that is the whole reason women are asked to cover?

from the Quran:

The 59th verse of Surah al-Ahzab says,[5]
“ Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Qur'an 33:58–59)
I think the dress code above all is to maintain a woman's dignity and anonymity.. I also call your attention to the incident with Saida Aisha RA.. when someone spread a rumor of her honor!

“ O Wives of the Prophet, ye are not like any of the (other) women. If ye do fear (Allah), be not too complaisant of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak ye a speak that is just. Abide still in your homes and make not a dazzling display like that of the former times of ignorance: and establish regular prayer, and give regular charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye Members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless. Communicate what is taught to you of the verses of God and the wisdom revealed by Him [to your visitors]. The Almighty is very discerning and all-knowing. (Qur'an 33:32–33)


I don't think that women should await men to take care of them and provide for them (that is my personal opinion)
and Allah swt knows best

 

[جوري]

Ok sister Jazaki Allah khyran for the clarification..

 

[YusufNoor]

^^ I am not sure that is the whole reason women are asked to cover?

from the Quran:

The 59th verse of Surah al-Ahzab says,[5]
“ Those who harass believing men and believing women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a grievous sin. O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) That is most convenient, that they may be distinguished and not be harassed. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Qur'an 33:58–59)
I think the dress code above all is to maintain a woman's dignity and anonymity.. I also call your attention to the incident with Saida Aisha RA.. when someone spread a rumor of her honor!

“ O Wives of the Prophet, ye are not like any of the (other) women. If ye do fear (Allah), be not too complaisant of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak ye a speak that is just. Abide still in your homes and make not a dazzling display like that of the former times of ignorance: and establish regular prayer, and give regular charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye Members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless. Communicate what is taught to you of the verses of God and the wisdom revealed by Him [to your visitors]. The Almighty is very discerning and all-knowing. (Qur'an 33:32–33)


I don't think that women should await men to take care of them and provide for them (that is my personal opinion)
and Allah swt knows best

if memory serves me correctly [sorry, i just wanted to quote from Iron Chefs]:

there was an incident in Medina where some of the hypocrites were beginning to harass the Mu'minahs in public. the Prophet, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam cursed those who did, who do and who will continue to harass them, thus the top Ayat was revealed. the hypocrites were put on warning and the Hijab [outer garments] is a sign to those hypocrites that these are the women that fall under the protection of the curse.

sadly, no one seems to spread this knowledge and warning.

and Allah knows best!

 

[جوري]

if memory serves me correctly [sorry, i just wanted to quote from Iron Chefs]:

there was an incident in Medina where some of the hypocrites were beginning to harass the Mu'minahs in public. the Prophet, Salla Allahu Alayhe wa Salaam cursed those who did, who do and who will continue to harass them, thus the top Ayat was revealed. the hypocrites were put on warning and the Hijab [outer garments] is a sign to those hypocrites that these are the women that fall under the protection of the curse.

sadly, no one seems to spread this knowledge and warning.

and Allah knows best!

There were several incidents actually, including the one when a Muslim lady went to purchase jewelry and the shop owner fixed it so that her garment was caught so when she got up she would be denuded.. This particular incident sparked so much outrage that a whole army got up in her defense (and Allah swt knows best)
To me modest wear (and that is actually the case with many of my conservative christian) friends, it is a matter of dignity and honor and self-respect.. There is no point in dressing like a potato sac but at the same time there is no point in dressing to seduce.. A woman who dresses to seduce only has one thing in mind.. (I know because I was there in my teenage yrs)
I don't personally believe that it has anything to do with men being obliged to take care of us, or spend of their money on us while we sit at home cooking and cleaning.. again it is my personal opinion.. I believe women should be in the least self-sufficient, because even if you have a really great husband, there is not much to trust in life..

A dear friend of ours (a convert) whose husband was injured in a car accident now is the primary source of income for her family, and is really having a difficult time making ends meet because of the current economy, the recent death of her mother, her brother's suicide and the number of your children she has...

my personal view has always been, even if you are well to do, look at your job as a way to foster a dignified life for other Muslims who are too ennobled to ask for a handout.. we are here to serve each other...

and Allah swt knows best

 

[Uthman]

The bottom line for me is that oppression is a state of mind. If you tell some of my Muslim sisters that they are oppressed, a slap in the face is what you'll get (not that I'm condoning such unislamic behaviour!). As far as I'm concerned, somebody is only oppressed if they feel oppressed and I think this applies equally to both Muslims and Non-Muslims.

 

[Uthman]

A somewhat controversial article

Shall we discuss it's claims?

 

[Thinker]

A somewhat controversial article

Shall we discuss it's claims?

Today it is difficult, if not impossible, to identify a Muslim-majority nation that could plausibly be identified as a modern, viable and legitimate “Islamic state”. Sunni Saudi Arabia and Shia Iran both loudly proclaim themselves to be such, but to each other they are heresies; they are also dictatorial regimes with terrible human-rights records. How about the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, blighted by military rule for much of its history? Or Sudan, accused of committing crimes against humanity among its own Muslim population in Darfur?

Not surprisingly, Professor An-Na’im concludes that “the Islamic state is a historical misconception, a logical fallacy and a practical impossibility”.

A nicely written article, eloquently put and easy to read

 

[Uthman]

A somewhat controversial article

Shall we discuss it's claims?

Mehdi Hasan writes:

...contrary to popular Muslim opinion, there is not a shred of theological, historical or empirical evidence to support the existence of such an entity. Its supporters tend to mumble vaguely about this or that verse from the Quran, or make vacuous references to the life example of the Prophet Muhammad. But the Quran prescribes no particular model of government, nor does it detail a specific political programme that Muslims must adopt. In fact, the concept of the state appears nowhere in the Quran.
​

Is there any truth to this?

 

[Yanal]

I think I might want to since all the corruption but sadly we (most of us) live in the west where full populated Muslim countries are hard to find so we cannot get the Shria law but we get wish for it.

But most muslims will also support the shria law because it can stop the world from making us do bad deeds and bring the inner good of all Muslims out because we would be devoted to Allah because of the shria law.I think Benazir Bhuttos birthplace has been under the shria law. And it runs smoothly. Or I at least think it dies. Anyway that's my perspective on Shria law and if we want it or not.