Sharia law - do you really want it?

[Thinker]

“I can think of only two countries/provinces, possibly three that use the sharia law as the sole governing body of laws, Iran, Saudi (not sure) and the Taliban areas. And, from what I can see, these three countries operate their own (and different) interpretation of the law.”

Their interpretation? You make it sound like you’re an Shiekh that knows the quran and sunnah like the back of his hand!

I do not hate Islam or Muslims I hate intolerance, segregation and hypocrisy. I want to live in a country that promotes freedom, tolerance and understanding. I worry about their interpretation of the sharia law and I worry that you believe that they will accept your interpretation.

 

[Thinker]

When I posed the question that started this thread I don’t think I fully realised the importance of the question. I was watching the news clip this morning which was reporting how the spread of sharia law in Pakistan was impacting upon the Pakistan community in the UK. It appears that as the Taliban push Pakistan towards a stricter (more extreme) interpretation of Islam and the sharia law, Muslims of Pakistan origin in the UK move towards that stricter interpretation and (for example as was reported) impose stricter rules on what their women can and cannot do.

So what? Bin Ladin and those that follow him want respect from the west and believe the way to get respect is to terrorise and kill. The more control they have (through the imposition of sharia law) the more they are able to radicalise those under their control, the more they radicalise the more recruits they have to kill, the more terrorist attacks there are the more the west will clamp down on Muslims in their community, that will help the radicals claim that they are oppressed and bring more recruits and it is then a downward spiral.

Some of you here that say you want sharia law believe (niaively) that if and when it comes it’ll be YOUR interpretation of sharia law and not the Taliban’s interpretation – if you believe that you are deluding yourselves.

 

[Thinker]

Thinker, Keep things in context and don't speak for definite unless you have understood fully the Islamic rulings. That's if shes divorcing for wrong reasons such as pronouncing divorce while she was emotional or if she's divorcing for no reason at all.

There are even hadeeth which state that women wanted a divorce during the lifetime of the Prophet (saaws) and they had their reasons, and the divorce took place.
QUOTE]


Indeed but my point is - and tell me if I am wrong; a woman cannot get divorced without the permission of her husband or the imam (who is a man) and a husband doesn't need his wife's permission and if he wants a divorce no pone can stop him.

 

[Muhaba]

Isn't witnessing mostly about memoy? The Quran says the second woman is there to correct the fist one in case she errs.

The Quran says the second woman is there to correct the first if she is wrong. The Quran didn't say the man was there to correct the women if they are wrong. this shows that the women don't need the man; they are perfectly capable to witness on their own. Still Allah ordered that there be a man there too. the witnessing of two women (without the man) is unaccaptable.

 

[Muhaba]

Ah respected Skye, I was wondering when you'd join us. . . .

Freedom . .
The freedom to wear any form of clothing and bare any part of your body (other than the obvious bits).
The freedom to send your daughter to any school you choose.
The freedom to choose your own friends, partners, husbands without being accompanied.
The freedom to marry a non-Muslim.
The freedom to work outside the home.
The freedom to work with men.
The freedom to shake a mans hand.
The freedom not to be stoned to death for adultery.

what about the freedom to wear hijab/niqab and cover the body including the head and face if a woman wants? in some countries, like France, women/girls aren't allwoed to go to school with head covers. isn't that an infringement on their freedom?

 

[Muhaba]

Indeed she can - but only with the permission of a man!

One reason why women aren't allowed to divorce their husbands without going to court may be that many people would force their daughters/sisters to divrce their husbands whenever there was a disagreement between the husband and the woman's family. one such case happened in UAE. a woman's father went to court asking for divorce for his daughter because he'd had an argument with her husband. the court called the daughter and asked her whether she wanted a divorce. she said no so the case was dismissed.

Additionally, the woman is supposed to return the dowry back to the husband when asking for divorce. if women could divorce men simply by saying divorce, they'd be able to take the dowry with them and then divorce the husband, which would be unfair to the husbands. many women would marry to get a dowry, then divroce the husband and leave with the dowry.

 

[جوري]

Indeed but my point is - and tell me if I am wrong; a woman cannot get divorced without the permission of her husband or the imam (who is a man) and a husband doesn't need his wife's permission and if he wants a divorce no pone can stop him.

can you divorce yourself in any country without a third party present? further would you like to equally touch on the view of divorce in Christian marriages (the dominant religion of the west) compared to Sharia marriages?

all the best

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Thinker, Keep things in context and don't speak for definite unless you have understood fully the Islamic rulings. That's if shes divorcing for wrong reasons such as pronouncing divorce while she was emotional or if she's divorcing for no reason at all.

There are even hadeeth which state that women wanted a divorce during the lifetime of the Prophet (saaws) and they had their reasons, and the divorce took place.
QUOTE]


Indeed but my point is - and tell me if I am wrong; a woman cannot get divorced without the permission of her husband or the imam (who is a man) and a husband doesn't need his wife's permission and if he wants a divorce no pone can stop him.

Here is the thread relating to divorce.


http://www.islamicboard.com/family-society/134279990-divorce.html#post1115632

 

['Abd-al Latif]

I do not hate Islam or Muslims I hate intolerance, segregation and hypocrisy.

Segregation is necessary and infact obligatory.

How often do you see fights in bars and clubs, because a man stares at anothers girlfriend for too long?

How many times have families been broken and societies corrupted because of adultery? And all of this starts by a single look!

How many times have babies been born not knowning either their father, or their mother or both?

How often have women been sexually abused, harrassed, stalked on and had their privacy invaded by the perverts in society?

Who in the end complains about all of this? Women. And who is there in a non-segrageted society to protect them?

Islam seeks to protect all of this. How often do you hear of child molestation, perversion, illegal sexual relations etc from Muslim lands?!

Non-Segregated societies have signed a contract for their own distruction, and we see it all the time in the media about all the above mentioned and those are the same people who turn a blind eye as if it never happened.

And still after all of this, it's the men of such societies who complain that there should be no segragation!

 

[Muezzin]

Some of you here that say you want sharia law believe (niaively) that if and when it comes it’ll be YOUR interpretation of sharia law and not the Taliban’s interpretation – if you believe that you are deluding yourselves.

People have said they would only accept the true form of Sharia, not a slanted version as the Taliban would like to see in action, which is not at all the same as what you're suggesting people think. I would not call that naive, but if it is, so be it. I am not afraid of words. I am puzzled as to why you keep distorting the words of people on this thread however.

No doubt you will ignore this message entirely in order to subsequently put words into every participants' mouth.

 

[Chuck]

Indeed but my point is - and tell me if I am wrong; a woman cannot get divorced without the permission of her husband or the imam (who is a man) and a husband doesn't need his wife's permission and if he wants a divorce no pone can stop him.

Are you a slow thinker or what? J/K or maybe not ;]

Anyway, but in Islam wife (or ex-wife) can take living expenses even after divorce. Thats what the mother of one of my friend did. Lot of people don't pay attention to that verse in the Quran but it is there. Same rule is not for the husband.

 

[Thinker]

can you divorce yourself in any country without a third party present? further would you like to equally touch on the view of divorce in Christian marriages (the dominant religion of the west) compared to Sharia marriages?

all the best

I believe that in divorce in the UK there is absolute equality to both parties except that the mother is more likely to get custody of children too young to be given the choice. I don't know how Christianity handles it.

I think we're drifting off the point a little - the point being that sharia law restricts the freedoms and rights of women and divorce is an example of how.

I am not sure where you're going with a third party being present - my understanding (gleaned from IsalmQ&A) is that in sharia law, a Muslim man can divorce his wife simply by telling her she's divorced whereas a wife cannot divorce her husband without his permission or by proving (presumably to the sharia court) that he has failed in his Islamic obligations. That inequality is (IMHO) another example of the restriction on freedoms and rights.

Finally, in the UK (and I believe in every other 'western' country) the divorced couple split the assets equally whereas the Muslim divorced wife gets nothing other than her dowry and whatever else she's acquired. As Islam promotes the idea that the wife's place is in the home raising children and the husbands place is to work it is likely that most Muslim husbands will have accumulated greater wealth than the wife. That I think is unfair to women but I will not argue with those Muslims who think it is fair. I consequently asked the question – will Muslim women living in the west take only what sharia entitles them to when they divorce.

Although I would not agree, I think Muslims could argue that sharia treats men and women fairly on the basis that they believe it is fair I think it would be impossible to argue that it treats men and women as equals.

 

[Thinker]

Here is the thread relating to divorce.


http://www.islamicboard.com/family-society/134279990-divorce.html#post1115632

Thank you I have read the thread and I could find nothing there that contradicted anything I have said on divorce. If I missed something I’d be grateful if you could point me to it.

Thanks again

 

[Azy]

once we are done you'll end up googling third party info to make a case for yourself..

and here we go:

I found a nice summary of the work mentioned at the bottom of this post.
APS Review

"Specific results indicated that women excelled in verbal episodic memory tasks, such as remembering words, objects, pictures or everyday events, and men outperformed women in remembering symbolic, non-linguistic information, known as visuospatial processing. For example, the results indicate a man would be more likely to remember his way out of the woods."

I think that would qualify a woman to be at least as good a witness to a contract as a man.

Helitz, A. & Rehnman, J., 2008. Sex Differences in Episodic Memory. Current Directions in Psychological Science, 17(1), pp.52-56.

(Also like the fact that one of the authors is called 'Rehnman')

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Thank you I have read the thread and I could find nothing there that contradicted anything I have said on divorce. If I missed something I’d be grateful if you could point me to it.

Thanks again

What do you mean?

 

['Abd-al Latif]

and here we go:

I found a nice summary of the work mentioned at the bottom of this post.
APS Review

"Specific results indicated that women excelled in verbal episodic memory tasks, such as remembering words, objects, pictures or everyday events, and men outperformed women in remembering symbolic, non-linguistic information, known as visuospatial processing. For example, the results indicate a man would be more likely to remember his way out of the woods."

I think that would qualify a woman to be at least as good a witness to a contract as a man.

Helitz, A. & Rehnman, J., 2008. Sex Differences in Episodic Memory. Current Directions in Psychological Science, 17(1), pp.52-56.

(Also like the fact that one of the authors is called 'Rehnman')

Rehnman doesn't sound like a Muslim name, I think you've mixed it up with 'Rahman' or 'Rahim'.

 

[Thinker]

What do you mean?

Sorry, I thought you were directing me to read that thread because it contained something that contradicted something I'd said :-[

 

['Abd-al Latif]

Sorry, I thought you were directing me to read that thread because it contained something that contradicted something I'd said :-[

I wanted to give you the general Islamic rulings, but as I said the rulings are much more comprehensive then what i've pasted on that thread.

 

[crayon]

what about the freedom to wear hijab/niqab and cover the body including the head and face if a woman wants? in some countries, like France, women/girls aren't allwoed to go to school with head covers. isn't that an infringement on their freedom?

I'd love to see an answer to this...

 

[Azy]

Rehnman doesn't sound like a Muslim name, I think you've mixed it up with 'Rahman' or 'Rahim'.

(Sorry Muezzin, but I wet myself when I saw your post)