Sikhism

OK Moss post 1 and 3 i am not concerned with i dont think its wrong to eat meat and dont think its important if it effects youre behaviour i will focus on the second post I will respond soon.

btw did someone hack into the computers last night or something i couldnt get in all night :? and then i noticed something suspicious just now, half my reps have disappeared:confused: i had well over a hundered:omg: and i have noticed moss that your reps have significantly increased since the last time you were on the forum? is their something you would like to come clean about:giggling:

ISDhillon
 
Moss Ji,


“which prove that the Zabiha method is not only humane but also scientifically the best”

I prefer it to be more humane rather than scientifically the best. Meat is meat at the end of the day I have stopped cos I don’t need to eat it anymore not out of religious conviction either I just don’t feel like it is what I should be putting into my body.

“The animal has to be slaughtered with a sharp object (knife) and in a fast way so that the pain of slaughter is minimised.”

I agree the blade must be sharp and the blow must be swift.

“by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck causing the animal’s death without cutting the spinal cord.”

This is slower therefore less humane than one blow behind the neck and you know its comin.

“The purpose is to drain out most of the blood which would serve as a good culture medium for micro organisms.”

The slowness of death cause psychological trauma to victim this is what is known as a torturous death. Prolonging the inevitable.

“Blood is a good media of germs, bacteria, toxins, etc. Therefore the Muslim way of slaughtering is more hygienic as most of the blood containing germs, bacteria, toxins, etc. that are the cause of several diseases are eliminated.”

Agreed however blood is a good source of vitamins and nutrients also, nihang Sikhs drink the blood of sheeps during sikh festivals by chopping of the head of a sheep and drinking all the blood, they don’t seem to suffer from medical diseases. But they are a sectilike group it is not a sikh thing.


“Meat slaughtered by Islamic way remains fresh for a longer time due to deficiency of blood in the meat as compared to other methods of slaughtering.”

Agreed however bloody meat especially steak is tasty it adds to the flavour of the meal believe it or not. The problem with this argument is your either against 20 mins for death or youre getting a better meal at the end of it you see people will say “endocrine glands secrete defensive chemicals into its body system and The resulting meat will naturally be toxic and unsuitable for human consumption as opposed to meat produced from animal killed with a clean,single,sudden blow or beheading”. But I couldn’t care less about all of that if the question is about the path least torturous for an animal then the arguments are not about all this other stuff. I don’t care for science I want the animals death to be more or less instantaneous.


Anyways we are not against halal cos of the method or any of that kabir says that those who kill animals in the name of god are one thing, people who thank god for food are quite another, so by all means thank god for the food you are about to eat but don’t justify the slaughter with you’re religion as it will not be accepted by god in the hereafter as his decree. My conclusion you might have got the scientific stuff right although I have not looked into that but not the human stuff and that’s more important anybody would think their was an epidemic of dodgy non-halal.

I think that’s about the gist of it,

ISDhillon
 
I didn't know there were sects in sikhism, how did they come about
 
Iqram said:
Yes....Kissing is not cumpolsory...Just touching is sufficient....
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Iqram. Forgive me, but why would you "just touch" it?

What would be the benefit of touching this?

Does it move you closer to Waheguru/Allah?

I know that the prophet kissed it, is this why the rest of the muslims kiss it?

Can I ask, what is Sunnah?

For the record, I appologise for calling one of my Muslim brothers here stupid. But if anymore people ask stupid questions, then I shall not refrain from calling them what they are. We are extremely humble, but don't take that for our weakness.
 
:sl:

Sunnah is the second source of sharia' after the quran. It is the way of life of the prophet (saws) wat he used to do and it is recorded in books. it is the deeds sayings and approvals of our prophet (saws)
 
Abdullah4ever said:
:sl:

Sunnah is the second source of sharia' after the quran. It is the way of life of the prophet (saws) wat he used to do and it is recorded in books. it is the deeds sayings and approvals of our prophet (saws)
Click to expand...

Thanks, would it be possible to get answers to the other questions aswell?
 
Abdullah4ever said:
:sl:

Ill try but explain ur question i dont get it
Click to expand...

Sure.

Originally Posted by Iqram
Yes....Kissing is not cumpolsory...Just touching is sufficient....
Click to expand...

Iqram said that you don't have to kiss the stone, like many muslims do, but touching is acceptable aswell.

My question is really "simple".

What would be the benefit of touching this? From a Muslim prespective.

Does touching the stone move you closer to Waheguru/Allah?

From what Iqram said, the prophet kissed it, is this why the rest of the muslims kiss it? (or touch it)

Or is this merely a ritual?

Its really simple, if the prophet said "touch this stone and you shall have xyz benefits", then I can understand.

I guess what I am trying to understand here is, why did the prophet kiss it?

Could somebody possibly inform us about the history behind this?
 
unbreakable said:
Sure.



Iqram said that you don't have to kiss the stone, like many muslims do, but touching is acceptable aswell.

My question is really "simple".

What would be the benefit of touching this? From a Muslim prespective.

Does touching the stone move you closer to Waheguru/Allah?

From what Iqram said, the prophet kissed it, is this why the rest of the muslims kiss it? (or touch it)

Or is this merely a ritual?

Its really simple, if the prophet said "touch this stone and you shall have xyz benefits", then I can understand.

I guess what I am trying to understand here is, why did the prophet kiss it?

Could somebody possibly inform us about the history behind this?
Click to expand...


Salam and hallo bhai

regarding to your question, as a muslim ill trying to answer it with my knowledge.

Praise be to Allaah

What would be the benefit of touching this? From a Muslim prespective.


In my opinion the idea to touch or kiss the stone is to encourage that all muslims need to unite as one entity(uniform) by doing the same thing.In the other hands its only a Sunnah.
Sunnah means the way of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). It includes everything he said, did, and approved of. We know the Sunnah from the statements called Hadiths that have been handed down from the Companions of the Prophet.
According to Islamic jurists, the Sunnah is second to fard. Fard means something is obligatory and it must be done; to neglect it without any excuse is a sin. The Sunnah is divided into confirmed (Sunnah mu’akkadah) and optional (Sunnah ghair mu’akkadah). The confirmed Sunnah also should not be neglected, though it is not as important as the fard. The optional Sunnah is recommended, but if someone neglects it, there is no sin or blame on that person.

Does touching the stone move you closer to Waheguru/Allah?

Allah(swt)will happy when his ummat are unite.

Or is this merely a ritual?

Thats not a ritual its only a Sunnah like im explain above

I guess what I am trying to understand here is, why did the prophet kiss it?

Sometimes an action is misinterpreted by people who do not know the background giving cause to it. One such action is the reverence with which Muslims look at the Black Stone in the Kaaba. Some people tend to think that Muslims worship the Black Stone or the Kaaba itself when they learn that we kiss the Black Stone during tawaf. Hence, an explanation is necessary to be given from time to time.

The Black Stone is an easily distinguished stone, placed a little below shoulder level at one corner of the Kaaba. The act of worship which is particularly associated with the Kaaba, and never stops except when the congregational prayer is held, is tawaf, which means walking round the Kaaba seven times in an anti-clockwise direction. Tawaf is one of the duties of Islamic pilgrimage and Umrah (i.e. mini-pilgrimage). It is also a recommended act of worship at all times. Moreover, it is the way to offer greeting to the Kaaba.

It is said that when Abraham completed the building of the Kaaba, with the help of his son, Ishmael, God commanded him to do the tawaf. He was not able to keep a correct count of the rounds he made. He felt that other worshipers would be similarly confused. He prayed God to give him a sign to be used for counting rounds. The Angel Gabriel brought him the Black Stone.

When one starts tawaf, and at the completion of every round, one should kiss the Black Stone or touch it with one's hands, if that is possible, or signal to it from a distance, if the place is too crowded. As one does so, one should repeat this declaration: "There is no deity save God; God is supreme." The significance of this particular action is best expressed by Omar ibn Al-Khattab, the second greatest figure among the companions of Prophet Muhammad and his second successor as ruler of the Islamic state, and a distinguished scholar. He addressed the Black Stone in these words:

"I know that you are a stone which can cause no harm or benefit. Had it not been for the fact that I saw God's messenger (peace be upon him) kissing you, I would not have kissed you."

Hope you will statisfied with this answer

chaloo
 
We are all meant to kiss it, but its highly impossible at times so it is suffiecient to touch it. Because it came from heaven, it is said by kissing it our sins are removed
 
You know wat, all that we do, we will be questioned about. Allah will not not be unjust hence for every action that we do there will be proof infornt of mankind as to what we did and didnt do.

For example, had you stolen something, ofcourse on the day of judgement you will say ya allah i did not do this that and the other, you will try to hide your mistakes, but your hands will be witnesses to that act. Does that make sense. So in terms of the stone, it be act as a witness, and speak out on your behalf, and say yes so and so did perform this pilgrimage. But other than that allah knows best.
 
Hey Dhillon, i wana ask about the groiwng of your hair

1) Do all sikhs have to grow hair?

2) Can you show me refernces from SGGS showing you do or don't please?

3) If you do have to grow hair, can i ask why?

4) If you don't have to grow hair, then why do some people grow hair and others don't, i meet so many sikhs who don't grow their hair, yet everyone tells me you don't have to. is it simply because they are not practising
 
Moss, I'l lattempt to answer, :)

1) Do all sikhs have to grow hair?

Yes, it was Guru Gobind Singh Ji's wish that Sikhs maintain the 5 K's. It was his hukam (order). (quote in the second answer). A Sikh is to believe in the Guru Granth Sahib as the eternal Guru, and also in the 10 Gurus (their lives & teachings - verbally or demonstrated) who led their lives as examples for Sikhs to follow.

2) Can you show me refernces from SGGS showing you do or don't please?

But you will not find it directly implemented in Guru Granth Sahib Ji because what you are looking for is a direct/superficial statement ordering you to keep hair - without the proper reason/inner depth of understanding of which, is mere ritualism.


3) If you do have to grow hair, can i ask why?

"If you wish to play the game of love, then come onto my path with your head in the palm of your hand; and once you step onto this path, give no attention to public opinion." - Guru Nanak Dev, SGGS, p.1412 (or was it p.1214??)

On Vaisakhi, 1699, Guru Gobind Singh Ji enacted this statement of Guru Nanak Dev Ji by asking the crowd for a head.

It was to implement that religion is not about passive theories about God, but a dynamic, practical relationship of love of the highest order between oneself, his divine teacher & God; and that one must be willing to let go of the attachment to live and embrace death by passing the test of true love through sacrifice. When we give our head the Guru, we sacrifice our selfish life and consciously agree to live life in accordance to the Guru by serving the community/mankind without any fear of dying.

As mentioned in one of my answers to the 5K's questions in earlier posts, when we take up the 5K's, then we take the very form of our prophet. There then is direct relation between, belief, faith & living (courageously).

It is also hard for some Sikhs to understand why thye have to keep hair, unless they know that the driving intention behind all this is Pure Love and gift of the Guru's very own personality.



4) If you don't have to grow hair, then why do some people grow hair and others don't, i meet so many sikhs who don't grow their hair, yet everyone tells me you don't have to. is it simply because they are not practising

Though Guru Gobind Singh Ji asked Sikhs to maintain their hair uncut, he never punished or put an end to those who went against or could not live upto his ideal. Sikhism is very liberal, there is no punishment for disobedience. Those who understand what a relationship is all about, will understand that it's all about 'commitment' , not commandment. Those who understand the inner meaning of the 5Ks, they understand the value and see it as a test to their commitment and embrace it as a boon of a commandment from the Guru; but those who don't understand, only see it as a meaningless commandment and think that it's all superficial and about appearances only.
Sikhs who cut their hair and still call themselves Sikhs - their own opinion and viewpoint; for the main aim of Sikhism, more than trying to categorize people into religions, is to make them realize God.

Hope this is helpful,
Lion King
 
Assalamu Alaikum and Greetings,

unbreakable said:
What would be the benefit of touching this? From a Muslim prespective.

Does touching the stone move you closer to Waheguru/Allah?

From what Iqram said, the prophet kissed it, is this why the rest of the muslims kiss it? (or touch it)

Or is this merely a ritual?

Its really simple, if the prophet said "touch this stone and you shall have xyz benefits", then I can understand.

I guess what I am trying to understand here is, why did the prophet kiss it?

Could somebody possibly inform us about the history behind this?
Click to expand...

There are various reports from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) concerning the origin of the Black Stone, but most of them are of doubtful origins. In Islam, we should not base our belief on sources which we cannot verify one hundred percent. The only fact that we can certainly establish is that it was put there by Prophet Ibrahim and Isma’eel (peace be upon them both) by the order of Almighty Allah, and the purpose of it was to indicate the beginning of Tawaf (Circumambulation of the Ka`bah).

Thus we as Muslims do not attach divine power to the stone. As `Umar ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) is reported to have said: “You are just a stone that does not benefit or harm anyone, and if I had not seen the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) kissing you, I would have not done so."

So, we are simply touching or kissing the Black Stone in order to honor us with association with the great Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him); it does not imply any reverence whatsoever.

However, some other scholars have classified some of the Hadith reports concerning the Black Stone as sahih (authentic) and as such they relate some importance to the Black Stone. The prominent Saudi scholar Sheikh Muhammad Salih Al-Munajjid, quotes some of those hadiths:

Ibn `Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “The Black Stone came down from Jannah (Paradise).” (At-Tirmidhi)

Ibn `Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) also narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “When the Black Stone came down from Paradise, it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.” (At-Tirmidhi)

Ibn `Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) further related that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “By Allah, Allah will bring it forth on the Day of Judgment, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favor of those who touched it in sincerity.” (At-Tirmidhi)

Ibn `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) quoted the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and Ar-Rukn Al-Yamani] is an expiation for one’s sins.” (At-Tirmidhi)​

fi aman Allah
w'salaam
 
Satsriakal MOSS Ji,

Apart from Lion Kings excellent response let me add further here the possible reasons why people ask this question firstly, were the gurus different from one another, Where did this idea come from of "i believe in guru number 1 or guru number 5 etc" there is only flesh of 1,2,3 etc gurshabad is one throughout all this jot is the same in all, when you say i believe in guru number 1 then what you believe in is not guru but body of number 1 which eventually died but gurshabad which is guru continued onto the next guru, and there is more to sikhism than just belief, its putting the gurus faith into practice and obeying guru ji's hukum:

Verse 214 translation by Dr Jodh Singh and Dr Dharam Singh Bachitar Natak Guru Gobind Singh ji says about guruship:

Ordinary persons consider them different in forms but the rare ones understood them as one. Those who knew them as one attained the high spiritual stages but without understanding nothing can be procured.

Therefore sri guru gobind singh is very much a 10th nanak .

Guru gobind singh created the khalsa for dharma to destroy the tyrants and guru nanak also talked about revolutions in a country ruled by tyrants in page 417 of sri guru granth sahib ji asa M1:

Sahan surti gavaiyaia sangi tamasai chaye

The kings had lost their higher consciousness, reveling in pleasure and sensuality

Babarvani phiri gayi kuyiru na roti khaye

Since Baabar's rule has been proclaimed, even the princes have no food to eat. ||5||


The guru granth sahib ji also talks about wielding the sword against the evil:

Var majh M1 p 145

Ja tudhu bhavai teg vagavahi
Sir mundi kati javahi
When it pleases You, we wield the sword, and cut off the heads of our enemies.



So the 1st and 10th guru were the same and the ideology from guru nanaks bani backs up the formation of a group of people who would fight for dharma-yudh ie sant-sipahi which is khalsa.


Rehat nama which is the code of conduct is a way of living which is espoused by the sri guru granth sahib itself for example naam and isnan:

Sri guru granth sahib var gauri M4 305-306:

Whosoever calls himself a sikh of the true guru, he gets up early in the morning and remembers the name of the true lord. He makes effort to rise early and take a bath in the ambrosial pool. Following the instructions of the guru he repeats the name of the lord and washes away his sins. And when the day dawns he sings the bani of the guru and remembers the name of the lord while sitting or standing. He who remembers my lod with every breath and loaf that gursikh wins the affection of the guru. I crave for the dust of the feet of that gursikh who not only repeat himself but also makes others repeat the name of the lord.

So the above indicates the way of practice, and the khalsa makes such a practice a requirement through its manifesto of rehat maryada therefore khalsa is the fulfilment of guru nanaks mission


Parts which ask you to be initiated? please refer to page 350 of the sri guru granth sahib ji:

Sikh sabha dikhya ka bhao,
Gurmukh sunana sacha nao

Love of the guru is initiation in the sikh congregation,
And hearing of the truthful name of the lord

This clearly indicates that naam simran and amrit initiation is important. Amrit is always equated with turning donkeys into lions, page 323 the sri guru granth sahib ji says:
Prethon kiton devta,
Tin karne hare sabhe sikh ubarian,
Prabhu kaj swarey

Turning devils into gods,
God, the doer, resurrects all the Sikhs,
And accords their task with perfection.

Finally a praise by the guru for the initiation page 171 sri guru granth sahib ji:

Hamre mastak daag dagana,
Hum karaj guru bahu sadhe,

I’m heavily indebted to the guru
And have got my forehead branded

The amrit ceremony binds a sikh to the discipline to the ceremony of truthful living.

Please ask more questions,:thankyou:

ISDhillon
 
masha'allah both answers r similar in ways of our islamic beliefs

a true muslim wakes up for fajr, the morning prayer. our 5 times a day prayers are like what you would see us do in the mosque, prostrating standing etc what we call salah

But we also have other prayers, throughout the day. because we believe Islam is more than a religion it's a way of life

we have a prayer (du'a) before going to sleep, waking up, changing our clothes, before eating, after eating, before relieving ourselves in the toilet, after relieving ourselves, looking in the mirror, before having sex, leaving the house, entering the house, a journey... the Prophet SAW gave us a du'a to learn for everything, they just a couple of lines long. it helps us remember allah in everything we do, to know that everything is for his sake and that all praise is due to him. Hmm interesting

Thanks for the replies. I basically have a friend who's dead proud of being a sikh, but he fashions his hair like J-Sean and is usually clean shaven. He goes parties talks 2 girls goes parties and dances and everything. he doesn't drink, and has never done anything with girls, and is genuinely a terrific guy, but he says he dnt grow his hair cos it dnt make sense to him.

But i just wana know, if it doesnt say so in the SGGS then how do u know you are supposed to grow the hair?
 
Hi Moss,

When Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the khalsa he administered amrit to the 5 beloved ones after doing do he then went down on one knee himself and said to the 5 beloved ones "now give me amrit", the 5 beloved ones responded "but we gave you our heads what will you give us" and he responded I am giving you gurgaddi/guruship, this is referred to as the cosmic play because 1 guru gave 5 men amrit but it took 5 khalsa sikhs to give amrit to one guru, the guru therefore became a sikh and temporal authority became invested in the 5 beloved ones, the sri guru granth sahib ji becomes the spritual repository of the divine and he khalsa becomes the temporal repository of the divine, the guru was split. then 5 thrones of authority were created which stretch the lenght of india, and each throne has whats known as a jathedar, the jathedar is selcted through meritocracy as a spokesman for the will of the community, when the 5 jathedars gather they can issue hukumnammas (edicts) or gurmattas (divine order), this is because the 5 jathedars represent the temporal authority of the once 1 guru. Now the code of conduct was originally written by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji it included 4 prohibitions : use of intoxicants, no cutting of hair, no eating of halal meat and finally no adultry. these are known as kurehits and if you break one you have to submit yourself before any 5 beloved ones and ask for punishment they may asy you to retake amrit or impose a penalty such as seva/selfless service like community service. We take authority and live according to panthic maryada and hukum because baptism is a holy sacrament where you make a personal covenent with god therefore we are architects of our own destiny and adhere to no other law system other than our bibek/conscience.

ISDhillon:thankyou:
 
ISDhillon said:
Hi Moss,

When Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the khalsa he administered amrit to the 5 beloved ones after doing do he then went down on one knee himself and said to the 5 beloved ones "now give me amrit", the 5 beloved ones responded "but we gave you our heads what will you give us" and he responded I am giving you gurgaddi/guruship, this is referred to as the cosmic play because 1 guru gave 5 men amrit but it took 5 khalsa sikhs to give amrit to one guru, the guru therefore became a sikh and temporal authority became invested in the 5 beloved ones, the sri guru granth sahib ji becomes the spritual repository of the divine and he khalsa becomes the temporal repository of the divine, the guru was split. then 5 thrones of authority were created which stretch the lenght of india, and each throne has whats known as a jathedar, the jathedar is selcted through meritocracy as a spokesman for the will of the community, when the 5 jathedars gather they can issue hukumnammas (edicts) or gurmattas (divine order), this is because the 5 jathedars represent the temporal authority of the once 1 guru. Now the code of conduct was originally written by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji it included 4 prohibitions : use of intoxicants, no cutting of hair, no eating of halal meat and finally no adultry. these are known as kurehits and if you break one you have to submit yourself before any 5 beloved ones and ask for punishment they may asy you to retake amrit or impose a penalty such as seva/selfless service like community service. We take authority and live according to panthic maryada and hukum because baptism is a holy sacrament where you make a personal covenent with god therefore we are architects of our own destiny and adhere to no other law system other than our bibek/conscience.

ISDhillon:thankyou:
Click to expand...


High Dhillon i got the jist of what you were saying but i didn't understand a lot because you were using a lot of vocabulary foreign to me

what is amrit and panthic maryda

so you say you now live to your own conscience, why were the laws of before not still adhered to? So basically you don't have to do those 4 things?
 

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