Sikhism

[Sarmad]

Hajj as an obligatory act of worship

or

make all the Muslim being unite as single entity.

which one is it?

There is nothing to do with Idoltary,there is only an action that misinterpreted by people who do not know the background giving cause to it.

Idolators use the same explanations when describing the impressive reasons behind tending to stone statues would you accept their reason? if not why should anyone accept the importance of your obligatory act of hajj? Simple its based on faith and guru nanak smashed these illusions by saying that god couldnt care less about hajj. no offence.

"Moreover, it is the way to offer greeting to the Kaaba."

why you greet an inanimate object?

"You are a mere stone. If the Prophet(PBUH) had not kissed you, I would have never kissed you"

so you kiss it out of devotion? what if idolators said they tend to their idols out of devotion? these arguments can be used by anyone, all people can give good reason for their acts of worship, guru nanak said that you are not obliged to perform any act as the body is in itself the temple of god, so in a sense belief in the reasons why people do hajj is a form of ritualised-thinking.

After you write 'Allah' why do you write 'SWT' and what does it stand for?

this is also a ritual, people get told off for not addressing god in this way yet no-one knows whats in a persons heart, you cant force someone to love god if they dont then they dont, simple as. It would be different if you said these words out of respect but you are telling me you do it to glorify god, must god be glorious for you to respect him? is it not enough that he is god?

Sarmad

 

[Zohair]

First off, there is not going to be another prophet to come after the Prophet SAW, so whoever said that god could care less about hajj, is just a liar. (no offence). it says this in the quran. It says that Muhammad SAW is the seal of the prophets, and this quran will last until the day of judgement as the shariah, the quran is the final guidance for mankind.

If you are a Muslim, you follow the quran, you don't follow guru nanak, or whatever other guru there is. Muslims follow the quran and the authentic hadith (sayings of the prophet SAW). and in the quran, there is even a chapter called Hajj. it is chapter number 22. It is one of the five pillars of the islamic faith, to preform the hajj.

now saying that the ka'bah is just like an idol, and so muslims are committing adultery is just wrong. the ka'bah is a shrine that was dedicated to allah, built by Prophet Ibrahim. the Makkan pagans desicrated it with the idols they built around it. I have a great article by Dr. Zakir Naik, addressing this accusation that muslims worship idols by worshipping the ka'bah, I will post it after this post inshallah.

you asked which one is hajj, is it obligitory, or is it to make all muslims united as one single entity. well the answer is quite simple, it is both ;D . it is both obligitory and it unites all muslims.

and about the black stone, this stone is from Jannah! (paradise) who wouldn't want to touch something from jannah, or kiss something from heaven. we don't worship the stone, it is just something that allah gave to us as a gift, and he allowed us to touch it or kiss it.

and your last statement is pretty illogical, it is a way of giving respect to Allah. Subhana wa ta'alah, it means glory be to him. what is wrong with saying that? you are praising god, maybe some people may not have it in their heart, only allah knows what is in your heart, and you will get reward according to the intention of your heart.

check my next post I will post the article

 

[Zohair]

here is the article as promised in my above post, hope this clears up your misconception

Question:

When Islam is against idol worship why do the Muslims worship, and bow down to the Kaaba in their prayer?

Answer:

Kaaba is the Qibla i.e. the direction Muslims face during their prayers. It is important to note that though Muslims face the Kaaba during prayers, they do not worship the Kaaba. Muslims worship and bow to none but Allah.

It is mentioned in Surah Baqarah:

"We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens: now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque: wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction."
[Al-Qur’an 2:144]


1. Islam believes in fostering unity


For instance, if Muslims want to offer Salaah (Prayer), it is possible that some may wish to face north, while some may wish to face south. In order to unite Muslims in their worship of the One True God, Muslims, wherever they may be, are asked to face in only one direction i.e. towards the Kaaba. If some Muslims live towards the west of the Kaaba they face the east. Similarly if they live towards the east of the Kaaba they face the west.


2. Kaaba is at the Centre of the World Map


The Muslims were the first people to draw the map of the world. They drew the map with the south facing upwards and north downwards. The Kaaba was at the centre. Later, western cartographers drew the map upside down with the north facing upwards and south downwards. Yet, Alhamdullilah the Kaaba is at the centre of the world map.


3. Tawaaf around Kaaba for indicating one God


When the Muslims go to Masjid-e-Haram in Makkah, they perform tawaaf or circumambulation round the Kaaba. This act symbolizes the belief and worship of One God, since, just as every circle has one centre, so also there is only one Allah (swt) worthy of worship.


4. Hadith of Umar (may Allah be pleased with him)


Regarding the black stone, hajr-e-aswad, there is a hadith (tradition), attributed to the illustrious companion of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), Umar (may Allah be pleased with him).

According to Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, book of Hajj, chapter 56, H.No. 675. Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, "I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (pbuh) touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you".


5. People stood on Kaaba and gave the adhaan
At the time of the Prophet, people even stood on the Kaaba and gave the ‘adhaan’ or the call to prayer. One may ask those who allege that Muslims worship the Kaaba; which idol worshipper stands on the idol he worships?

 

[Zohair]

lol my third post in a row..

I just skimmed through the thread, and I will touch on the issues that was brought up with the sikh's, if I missed any please do remind me.

the first issue is the issue of the quran and its revelance. the quran is the direct and exact word from god. you can tell because out of all of the books written, the quran has the best language and best speech. the writing style is unique to any other book. all the chapters verses are rhyming!!! imagine rhyming 284 sentences together and having them to make sense and get a point! subhanallah. and the Prophet SAW did not go to school, the way he spoke and the way the qur'an was recited were two very different things, the qur'an is the highest elequonce of arabic literature. I doubt that the sikh book by the guru that you believe is god on the earth is as elequont as the quran. there are some links on the thread to qur'an recitation, listen to the flow of the verses, it is like medecine to the ears.

I already addressed the issue of the ka'bah in my above posts.

Hajj is something instructed in the quran, and as I mentioned earlier, chapter 22 is actually named "hajj" thats how important it is. when something is instructed in the quran. to ask why is it that you have to turn to the ka'bah or travel to the ka'bah, the answer is basically, its none of your business. Allah instructs many things with wisdom, and with reason.

hajj is a great test of patience, and so allah might want us to preform hajj so that he can test our obedience to allah and our patience that we have.

whoever has gone for hajj and umrah can share stories on how they were tested on the way to hajj or even during hajj. I myself went for umrah to makkah.

and the rest of the small issues, the answer is simple, its in the qur'an and in the ahadith (sayings of the prophet SAW)!!

any other issues you want to ask about, please post your concerns here and I will be happy to respond .

 

[Zohair]

look at my other posts, I refuted all of his points.

after your post then I guess the debate is that we agree to disagree. its not going to get anywhere its a case of he said, she said.

the muslims follow the quran, sikhs follow guru nanak.

and for the record, the quran is not from an angel, the angel gave the words of god to Muhammad SAW, if god were to come into this earth and appear himself, the whole universe would burn up from allah's noor.

anyways, if this is the attitude your gonna have it is a pointless debate.

 

[aamirsaab]

Then your prophet was a liar no offence

Correction: there will be people who will claim to be a prophet after muhammed [saw] but they will not be prophets.

it is said in sggs that koran is false so your argument is disqualified

Book against book? it would be unwise to go down this path...

i only follow god which is sri guru granth sahib ji ,your koran is the word of an angel and irrelevant to me

But you still believe in a one true God, right? Muslims refer to the one true God as Allah.

There is a fine line between debating and fighting - the latter is not required.

 

[Zohair]

because the miracles are way to plentiful :giggling:, I will not post all of them, but rather a link where you can see all of them

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

explore the different links, you will be amazed.

 

[amardeep]

SGGS does not say the Quran is false. i challenge every sikh in here to bringe a verse that says so..

The Gurus never used the word "rasool" about themselves. the only place the word rasool is mentioned in the SGGS is when adresssing Muhammad. so no, Sikhi does not contradict Islam at this point..

Sikhism is all about love and respect..just like islam

 

[Mohsin]

You a sikh i take it? What do you want to debate on?

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

SGGS does not say the Quran is false. i challenge every sikh in here to bringe a verse that says so..

i second this!

Where does it state this in the Guru Granth Sahib?? Provide link!

 

[Mohsin]

i second this!

Where does it state this in the Guru Granth Sahib?? Provide link!

Um this is what i got from a sikh

On panna 1350, Satguru Granth Sahib tells us "Baed Kataeb kaho mat jhoothay jhootaa jo naa bichaarai" which means, "Call the Vedas and the Semitic scriptures FALSE teachings, false is that person who does not reflect". The shabad then goes on to highlight the hypocrisy of the Mullahs. Sikhi does not accept any other religion as being "true".

 

[Mohsin]

<<You a sikh i take it? What do you want to debate on?>>>

my religion and allegiance is irrelevant.

I posted earlier..i would like to discuss sikhism and Islam.

I am waiting for others to accept invitation. Will discuss with only those who respond till tomorrow.

Go for it bro, but remmeber this is a forum, everyone is entitled to join in

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Um this is what i got from a sikh

That english translation is false!!

Even a person who understands urdu can work out what this bit means!!

Kaho mat jhoothay Those that dare say it's lies!

Mat = Dare

jhoothay = Lie

And the ending verse is right 'false is that person who does not reflect on these scriptures'

I'm assuming the Sikh you got it off, wasn't fluent in the understanding of Guru Granth Ji!

 

[Mohsin]

So basically the translation i was given was exact opposite to what it actually says. So it actually says don't call them false teachings, and reflect on what it says, am i right?

What does it mean by reflect on what it says

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

So basically the translation i was given was exact opposite to what it actually says. So it actually says don't call them false teachings, and reflect on what it says, am i right?

What does it mean by reflect on what it says

Yes!

To read, and to aknowledge what it preaches.

 

[Mohsin]

Yes!

To read, and to aknowledge what it preaches.

Well i thought sikhs thought what was said in the Qur'an is false. For example God says we shoud pray to the Ka'bah the holy mosque and non-muslims should not be allowed there. You have previously tried in vain to show how incorrect that was, but nevertheless Sikhs still disagree with that islamic rule, so obviously you think this is false, am i right?

Also people like Dhillon said Qur'an is not the word of God but quite comically he would argue it's the word of an angel. How can sikhs then "acknowledge",as you said, what it preaches?

 

[Zohair]

If sikhs believe in the quran and in prophet Muhammad SAW, why don't they follow him? and if they say the quran is true, why not follow it?

if sikh's believe in the qur'an, then why can't we use the quran to prove ones points?

 

[Tania]

If sikhs believe in the quran and in prophet Muhammad SAW, why don't they follow him? and if they say the quran is true, why not follow it?

if sikh's believe in the qur'an, then why can't we use the quran to prove ones points?

I think they just respect others religion, like never denny them or talking badly about them.

 

[amardeep]

the verse says:

bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

which means that sikhs and all of humanity can not call the Koran or any other divine scripture false....if we should call anyone false, call the one falsem who says he is a muslim, but does not follow the Quran.

the Quran might be a divine scripture, but it is not an eternal scripture..it was only sent for the arabs......why did'n Muhammad travel the world to spread his message if he was a universel prophet? Guru Nanak visited large parts of the world to spread his message and was accepted by people of all religions, as they saw him as divine..

 

[Zohair]

the Quran might be a divine scripture, but it is not an eternal scripture..it was only sent for the arabs......why did'n Muhammad travel the world to spread his message if he was a universel prophet? Guru Nanak visited large parts of the world to spread his message and was accepted by people of all religions, as they saw him as divine..

Actually Muhammad did travel the world to spread his message. basically at the time of the Prophet, the world was runned by different empires, so he sent letters to the different emprerors, telling them to embrace islam. and also, he sent a group of muslims to ethiopa to spread islam there.

Also in the quran, it says clearly, that it is the final guidance for mankind, and that there are NO scriptures after it.

similarily it says that The Prophet SAW is the LAST prophet. and that he was sent to the worlds.

anymore questions?