Sikhism

[AvarAllahNoor]

Moshin

Does the Kuran not say?

Allah said:

"And certainly I've sent messengers before you: there are some of them that i have mentioned to you and there are others whom i have not mentioned to you..." [40:78]

Does the Ahadeeth not mention many more in number? More than 25 in the Kuran!


Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh
The pure ones (Khalsa) belong to God, Victory to God

 

[Idris]

How many years afer Judaism did islam come into being?

How many years after christianity did islam come into being?

Your question is pointless it means nothing brother!

God does as he feels.


jo tis bhaavai so-ee karsee fir hukam na karnaa jaa-ee.

He does whatever He pleases. No one can issue any order to Him(Guru
Granth Ji)

This is all you need to know on this! Unless you believe Allah is incapable of creating anything other than islam?

Can god make another God?
Can god kick you out of his kingdom?

It’s Illogical to say god can do as he likes.
No in Islam we believe that god even has his limits to doing godly things

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Can god make another God?
Can god kick you out of his kingdom?

It’s Illogical to say god can do as he likes.
No in Islam we believe that god even has his limits to doing godly things

Who is this other God? He does as he likes. Carry on being ignorant brother!

GOD HAS LIMITS?? lol that shows you think God does not possess the power to do as he likes, should he consult you or me when deciding on what should be done! :rollseyes

 

[Abdul Fattah]

The notion of an omnipotent God doesn't have natural limits, but as a result of choice even an omnipotent waves some of his abilitys. If God says he is the most just, then he waves his ability to be the most unjust. It's not because omnipotence is flawed, it's a natural result from a decision not to have an ability.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

The notion of an omnipotent God doesn't have natural limits, but as a result of choice even an omnipotent waves some of his abilitys. If God says he is the most just, then he waves his ability to be the most unjust. It's not because omnipotence is flawed, it's a natural result from a decision not to have an ability.

kudrat kavan kahaa veechaar.

What power have I to describe Thine doctrines (Thee)?

jayvad aap jaanai aap aap.

How great He is, only He Himself knows.

hor aakh naa sakai ko-i.

No one else has any say in it. (SGGS)


jay ko aakhai boluvigaarh.

If some prater says that he can describe God


taa likhee-ai sir gaavaaraa gaavaar. ||26||

then write him down as the most foolish of the foolish.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Here's a little more information.

Karni Nama


While Guru Nanak was in Mecca and Medina, Qazi Rukan Din asked, ?True King, tell us your prophecy again. Tell us how you will unfold the future?.
Your name is Nanak Nirankari and you are from the Nation of the Lord. What are the instructions for the future?

Nanak replied Rukan Din, listen to the true answer
Whosoever reads or listens to this shall be content. All doubts shall be removed.

In the tenth dress shall reside The Lord.

I shall fight many battles against Emperor Aurangzeb.

I shall then send a letter of victory (Zafarnamah) to Aurangzeb with my Singh (Bhai Daya Singh).

Upon seeing him, Power shall lessen and he shall forget his devious ways.

Emperor Aurangzeb will be overwhelmed by the sight of Daya Singh and will start to tremble.

The Khalsa been resurrected! Good has not been done by Gobind Singh?

I shall leave having given a kingdom; My name being Gobind

There will be a time when the Khalsa shall forget the teachings I have given them. Sikhi will only be left in name. Many Wars shall occur.

I will have to return again to resurrect the Khalsa. They shall reside in the Punjab.

I shall make people from all four corners into one.

They will be in Majjha; They will raid Lahore.

They will bring Potohaar to justice; They will take Peshawar.

They will set up a cantonment at Attock and then open the Khyber Pass.

They will establish a kingdom in Kabul and then take Ghazni.

After bringing Hazaara to justice they will march on to Kandahar.

After taking Balack and Buckaara, they will conquer Sindh and Baloch.

After gaining victory over these lands they shall govern all the people.

Mecca, Medina and Rome shall tremble.

They shall gain victory in battle over south and west India.

The Guru's Army shall sit at the throne of Delhi.

Umbrellas of kingship shall sway over their heads. All shall be content.

From East to West all shall be conquered. None shall challenge the Khalsa. All humanity shall become one.

In the kingdom of the True King, Satjug shall be established.

The Khalsa Panth shall rule. The arrows of death shall not touch them.

The Army of the Timeless shall grow and spread like locusts.

All shall wear vestments of blue; no one else shall be seen.

Listen Qazi Rukan Din, The Singhs shall rule.

The Unholy Sheikhs shall be destroyed. Pirs and Mureeds shall be no more.

All shall recite the one name of the Lord. Then he shall come himself.

The untrue shall not be able to see his glory.

All humanity shall unite and he will distribute provinces.

The Earth shall give food and the mountains shall give diamonds.

Fruits of many kinds there shall be, upon the sight of the timeless.

All shall recite VAHEGURU and achieve salvation.

Many Dharamsalas (places of discussion) shall exist.
The Lord shall manifest himself in body (as man).

He will make all utter VAHEGURU. All Singhs shall flock under his banner.

All shall know him as the True One. He will sit at the throne of Delhi.

He will establish a kingdom of peace and no enemies will remain.

Wherever the Khalsa turns his eye, the 14 realms shall tremble.

For 14,000 years, this kingdom shall remain.

Wealth will be collected and food shall be distributed.

The naked and the starving shall all receive; no one will go without.

Sayeth Nanak, Rukan Din, This is how it shall be.

Whosoever reads the Karni Namah, his love with The Lord shall grow.

The Word of the Timeless shall prevail. Those uttering falsehood shall not remain.

After the effect of The Akaal, forests, mountains and the world shall see salvation.

The Khalsa shall Rule. There will be no-one left to oppose them.

All who are lost shall gain the safety of the Khalsa

Raj Nama


Spoken by the First Master

First, Nanak went to Mecca;

Medina he afterwards visited.

The lord of Mecca and Medina,

Kaarun, he made his disciple.

When Nanak was about to depart,

Kaarun, the fortunate, thus spoke:

Now thou art about to go,

But when wilt thou return?

Then the Guru thus answered:

When I put on my tenth dress

I shall be called Gobind Singh;

Then shall all Singhs wear their hair;

They shall accept the 'Pahal' of the two-edged Sword

Then shall the Khalsa be established;

Then shall men exclaim 'Vaheguru'

The four races shall become one and the same;

The five weapons shall be worn by all.

In Kalyug they shall array themselves in vestments of blue;

The name of the Khalsa shall be everywhere.

In the time of Aurangzeb

The wondrous Khalsa shall arise.

Then shall battles be waged,

Endless war shall ensue,

And fighting shall follow year after year.

They shall place the name of Gobind Singh in their hearts.

When many heads shall be rendered up,

The Empire of the Khalsa shall prevail.

First, they shall conquer Punjab;

Then other countries shall be theirs;

Hindustan and the North shall be possessed by them;

Then the west shall bow to them.

When they enter Khorasan,

Kabul and Kandahar shall lie low.

When Iran has been laid prostrate,

Arabia shall be conquered and they shall march on to Mecca.

Mecca shall be beheld,

And Medina shall be seized.

Mighty shall be the rejoicing,

And all shall exclaim 'Vaheguru'.

Unbelievers shall everywhere be destroyed;

The holy Khalsa shall be exalted.

Beasts and Birds shall tremble in the presence of the Lord.

Men and Women shall everywhere call on God.

The Earth, the Oceans and the Heavens shall call on God.

By calling on the Guru shall men be blessed.

Every faith shall become of the Khalsa;

No other religion will remain.

'Vaheguru' shall everywhere be repeated,

And pain and trouble shall depart.

In the Kalyug shall the Kingdom be established,

Which Nanak received from the Lord.

Worthless, I fall before God;

Nanak, the slave, cannot comprehend the ways of the Lord.

Thus replied Nanak to Kaarun's question.


http://www.info-sikh.com/LLPage41.html


The Karni Namah and the Raj Namah are two significant chapters of the Sau Sakhi, the Sikh book of prophecy. The Raj Namah appears in, The History Of The Sikhs, by J D Cunningham on p. 340. Cunningham came across this document during the mid 19th century. He states that these “compositions are of course fabulous as regards Nanak, and appear to be the compositions of the commencement or middle of the last century”.

The Karni Namah was told to Qazi Rukan Din, Pir Bahaoud Din, Ghous, Kuthab, Saalaar, Hajji, Sheikh and Mushaikh Aulviya, who sat with Guru Nanak at religious discussions. The Raj Namah was told to Kaarun, the Emperor of Rome, on Guru Nanak’s return from medina.

These prophecies were in the Old Janam Sakhi’s written by Bhai Bala, who accompanied Guru Nanak on his travels. However, the British removed them.

‘Raaj Karega Khalsa Aaki Rahai Na Koe.

Khuaar Hoe Sab Milengai Bachai Sharan Jo Hoe’.

This is said by the Sikhs in their daily Ardas. As it can be seen, the Karni Nama is the only source of these words.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

brother i have loads, and yet so far none have been answered.

See my two posts above.

i also want to ask you although you don't claim nanak to be a Nabi or a rasool, you claim him to be someone who God has spoken to or sent revelation to or elevated him with contact from god. All these things would mean another messenegr whether you like it or not, and Muhammed SAW clearly said this will not happen.

The coming of Nanak was prophesised thousands of years before his arrival. These prophecies are explicitly detailed in the Vedas and the Puranas, which are amongst the oldest scriptures on Earth.

Whilst at Mecca and Medina, Guru Nanak unfolded futuristic events in the Karni Nama and the Raj Nama. He clearly states that he will have to return to ressurect the Khalsa.

Prophets of the world have all established their religions. Each religion was a requirement of its age, which the prophet was sent to fulfil. The way of the Khalsa is the requirement in the age of Kaljug. It is the tool necessary to defeat Kaljug and establish the kingdom of Satjug.

Presently, the Khalsa appears to be in a state of dormancy. What is required for the Great Guru to show himself? What conditions are required, i.e., how much more of a decline of humanity is required?

Is this decline necessary? What can we do, as Khalsa, to stop this decline from occurring?

What we are currently doing is OBVIOUSLY not working!

 

[bint_muhammed]

does sikhs believe in God and what are their main beliefs? i have no clue at all!

 

[bint_muhammed]

sorry for my question above i've found the answers! and please use english and not other languages as its hard for people to understand!
thankyou!

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

does sikhs believe in God and what are their main beliefs? i have no clue at all!

This will help you understand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism

 

[Mohsin]

I'm talking about Hinduism/Islam in general perhaps i should have not mixed the superstiton etc - But it was appropriate as they main reason for Sikhi was that these two beliefs were in turmoil!

Sorry for taking so long to reply

This still doesn't answer the question i posed. The religion was still intact. the scriptures were still there, The Qur'an was still the same as it had been during the prophet PBUH's time, and all of the Prophet PBUH's teachings had been authenticated, so all of Islam's teachings was still there. This is different to before when Allah would send Prophets to people, where the original message had been completely lost. This would have happened by a change in the scriptures over many years by corrupt individuals, such that the meaning of the religion had completely changed from the one God sent down. In such an instance, god sent a new messenger to re-affirm the truth

Now the problem here is Guru Nanek was sent according to you as islam and Hinduism had gone astray. Now, Hindus themselves admit their scriptures is no longer the same as it was, but no muslim has ever said the same about the Qur'an. The message was still there, it was just people were no longer following it. So in such an instance there was no need to send a new law/rules/religion/messenger/guru as the religion (Islam) God had sent previously was still intact, and God had said in the Qur'an it is the last and final message

Now the flaw in your argument is that even after Guru Nanak came, Muslims and Hindus continued to not follow their respective scriptures, there are still many non-practising muslims today. So what did Guru nanak achieve? I can argue today that the Muslim Christian Hindu Sikh Jewish beliefs are all in turmoil, as they all contain many non-practising followers. So does that mean god is going to send another teacher to the earth now?

Please clarify what you mean. Do you or do you not believe the Qur'an is the word of God. please no ambiguity. Do you believe Muhammed PBUH is a messenger or not? Do you believe the Qur'an is 100% the word of God or not?

 

[Mohsin]

You don't have to believe in something in order to respect it correct? It can be done by aknowledging it!

Yes, but it says don't call it false, false is someone who does not contemplate on it. Surely this means if you can't call it false. Ie you can't say its a lie, ie you can't say it is not divine.

What does it mean contemplate on it? If you believe it not to be divine then why bother contemplating on the words of mere men who have committed serious sins by writing claiming it to be the word of God

 

[Mohsin]

How many years afer Judaism did islam come into being?

This is besides the point. Number one you are probably unaware Moses PBUH was not a jew. Anyway God continually sent messengers to Israel. Each time the followers began to astray, another messenger was sent.

How many years after christianity did islam come into being?

Again irrelevant. But about 600 years after. Again here, many of the teachings had become distorted, and Islam's views are that many pagan beliefs had been introduced into the religion. However there were still many Unitarians around at the time, and also many Christians who were waiting for the last prophet PBUH

Islam has continually sent prophets throughout time. there have been over 124,000 prophets sent to mankind, and each nation has received a Prophet. This is an islamic belief and we have to believe this

God does as he feels

Of course, i have no issue with that! But i believe God is most just and God would not have left people to go astray for thousands of years without guidance. If Sikhism teaches you that God would allow such a thing to happen then so be it

Unless you believe Allah is incapable of creating anything other than islam?

The flaw in this statement is probably due to the fact you don't know what islam is. islam in essenmce means submitting your will to God. So God would only send down a religion per se that would submitt to his will. God would not want people to worship him in man made ways. So God can only send down islam

 

[Mohsin]

A Sikh does not exclude or condemn any religion

Yet you ahve questioned on many occasions on why we do Hajj, why we pray to the ka'bah, why we allow polygamy, why we apparently oppress the women by not giving them equal status. This is clearly saying islam is wrong

He does not believe that only he deserves heaven and all others are going to burn in hell, etc. We are all children of the same God

We believe islam is the truth, the most true religion as it is unchanged from when god revealed it. But that doesn't mean we believe all other people are doomed for the hell-fire see this thread http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/8626-mother-teresa-heaven-hell.html

A Sikh respects everyone's religious sentiment and freedom to choose their own way to Truth

So does a Muslim. Everyone is entitled to their own way of thinking. However, that doesn't change the fact there is only One god, and thus only one way to god, as god can't contradict himself and have two different religions with differing beliefs

The Sikh scripture, Guru Granth Sahib, contains authentic Gurbani from Saints of diverse religious origins

Interesting i did not know this. Islam only contains the word of God, not by any man. Especially in this case of men who are of other religions associating lies with god

Unlike some religious writings, Gurbani is not a history or prediction, related to some nation, etc. It is God's truth written in verse

same with the Qur'an, it was sent to the whole of mankind as i've shown you clearly in many verses in the qur'an and in the hadeeth

God put you in your religion for a special purpose. You do not need to convert in order to enjoy, understand, and take advantage of the Sikh Gurus' teachings.

God has only ever had one religion, the religion in submission to him. All other religions are man made. Yes God then put us into different religions, but we have been created to be tested by god in this life. God will test us to see if we follow the true religion. being born as a muslim simply is not enough. there are many non-practising muslims. A muslim has different tests. A muslims has to call others to the way of islam

 

[Mohsin]

Moshin

Does the Kuran not say?

Allah said:

"And certainly I've sent messengers before you: there are some of them that i have mentioned to you and there are others whom i have not mentioned to you..." [40:78]

Does the Ahadeeth not mention many more in number? More than 25 in the Kuran!


Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh
The pure ones (Khalsa) belong to God, Victory to God

Yes it does. I don't see the relevance. This is different to Sikhism which you admitted to earlier God only sent 10 gurus and nothing to the mankind before it

 

[Mohsin]

Posted by Mohsin
<Okay you say nowhere in SGGS does it say that, but that is not what we are saying. Do you or do you not deny that it says in the SGGS that the Qur'an is not false, ie it is a divine scripture and the word of God. Well in the Qur'an it says Muham,med PBUH is the last messenger, so since Qur'an is not false, and it is the word of God, which SGGS accepts, therefore anything contained within the Qur'an is also true, and it says time and time again Muhammed PBUH is the last messenger sent for thw whole of mankind. >

Please use the quote tool

Well SGGS say Quran is not false, so by your logic as you assert that Koran is not false hence you also believe that SGGS is also true , as it recognises the truth of Koran..

Nooo. I believe SGGS is written/inspired by men with many contradictions. It comes with a new religion but in some places says all religins are right.
So:
SGGS says Sikhism is the right path. It also says Qur'an is not false. Qur'an says it is the word of God. God says islam is the right path. Therefore according to Sikhism both Sikhism and islam are right, therefore contradiction
hows that? :brother:

 

[Mohsin]

<<<i also want to ask you although you don't claim nanak to be a Nabi or a rasool, you claim him to be someone who God has spoken to or sent revelation to or elevated him with contact from god. All these things would mean another messenegr whether you like it or not, and Muhammed SAW clearly said this will not happen.>>>

this is based on YOUR belief that Quran and Prophet muhammed knew the complete truth. We donot believe so. peace. So this is a point i think we will have to agree to disagree.
.

Okay so you don't accept him as a Prophet. So what guidance did God send to the rest of creation before the 10 gurus?

this is the difference in sikhism and Islam, SGGS does not call any religion as False and its prophets as LIARS. It is the false and illogical practices which are condemned in sikhism.

Indirectly however you are calling them liars. Prophet Muhammed PBUH clearly said he is a Prophet, and the last guide to mankind. By not following his religion you must believe he was not telling the truth when he said he is a messenger, or he is the last teacher to mankind. So you are calling him a liar.

please stop reading only one line which says "quran is not false"

this is the complete line

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥
बेद कतेब कहहु मत झूठे झूठा जो न बिचारै ॥
bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.


peace

so if u want to consider SGGS as accepting Koran as the final word, ...you are mistaken.

well explain to me by what it means? Those who do not contemplate them are false. What does thsi line mean. What is there to contemplate on. Sikhs don't believe any of these religions to be divine so why contemplate, or rather what do you contemplate on it???

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Okay so you don't accept him as a Prophet. So what guidance did God send to the rest of creation before the 10 gurus?



Indirectly however you are calling them liars. Prophet Muhammed PBUH clearly said he is a Prophet, and the last guide to mankind. By not following his religion you must believe he was not telling the truth when he said he is a messenger, or he is the last teacher to mankind. So you are calling him a liar.



well explain to me by what it means? Those who do not contemplate them are false. What does thsi line mean. What is there to contemplate on. Sikhs don't believe any of these religions to be divine so why contemplate, or rather what do you contemplate on it???

Those that are believers of these faiths, are false if they do not contemplte on it! - Does not apply to a Sikh who believes in nothing but Shabad Guru! The verse is self explanatory!

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Okay so you don't accept him as a Prophet. So what guidance did God send to the rest of creation before the 10 gurus?

He sent Moses, Abraham, Jesus Mohammed, Buddha etc etc. Who's questiong that? I'm not!

He's sent thousands of prophets. I couldn't care less if you think the 10 Gurus were prophets or not. They are and were in the eyes of millions, and it's stated in the SGGS!

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Nooo. I believe SGGS is written/inspired by men with many contradictions. It comes with a new religion but in some places says all religins are right.
So:

So was the Kuran, it was written by man, through numerous disciples. With different views on certain matters i don't doubt!