Some Muslim schools 'make children despise the West': Ban on cricket and Harry Potter

[aamirsaab]

Erm, pardon me but what exactly is the problem?

The school in question is:
* Not state funded (NOT FUNDED BY THE GOVERNMENT)
* A religious school (legally allowed by the government)
* Questionable websites (which have apparently closed down so I cannot view them to verify the passages of text. In light of this information coming from a somewhat unreliable news source, I cannot exactly take it on face value, but at the same time I don't have much to go on in the first place...)

But, even if that last one is true, what exactly is the point being made? Some kids are taught to HATE and even hurt people of different ethnicities - I don't see Civitas flaunting that!

No, I am not saying teaching kids to hate the west is any better (I think ithat's stupid anyway). Just pointing out a little factoid. I mean, in light of such wonderful freedoms of speech etc, I don't see why civitas is getting in a hissy fit about this (especially if those comments on the websites were indeed true) or why any champions of freedom of speech are getting their chuddies in a twist.

It is a privately owned and funded Islamic school - which, if you aren't muslim, you probably are not going to send your kids to anyway. So what problem do you have in how a privately owned and funded school (which you are not even a stakeholder in!) functions?

If you're arguing the case of biting the hand that feeds, then yeah I'll give you that one but otherwise, I don't see what you are getting at. Unless you are referring to indoctrination, in which case I could be here all day!

 

[Trollomore]

Whether a report is from the Daily Mail, the Sun, the BBC, or any other media, it should not be taken as exact fact as they're trying to sell their product and so will make small lies to increase sales. Page 3 of the Sun is proof enough; sure her boobies look nice but they could be photoshopped!

However, neither should we condemn the report outright because of it.
Surely a school promoting violence cannot be a good thing in any way and needs to be investigated.

Just as an observation, it intrigues me that you can say that it's up the school what is being said when it's in a non-muslim country but if the roles were reversed I wouldn't be suprised to see something burning and placards promoting the beheading of such and such <GENERIC>This is not in anyway intended to be insulting, offensive or otherwise.</GENERIC>

Before anyone steps in anyway, I'd like to make this point clear:

Muslim protests seem to be more violent then most, burning effigies etc.
That seems to be the 'zeitgeist' of Muslim protests it seems, and so it has to be accepted that people outside of your spectrum see it extremely threatening and over the top.
If someone can show me protests where such things have not occurred then I'll gladly accept that, that sometimes happens.
Just a list of violent things I've seen in combination during such protests:

Placards promoting the beheading or some kind of GBH towards another.
Something burning. (Muslims love to burn something in relation to the protest, though I do admit it is fun )
Material covering the face of protesters. (Admittedly this is done with groups like Anonymous as well so it's not such a big deal)

 

[Azy]

So what problem do you have in how a privately owned and funded school (which you are not even a stakeholder in!) functions?

So it would be perfectly acceptable for your local rednecks to start a school with a white uniform and matching hood?

 

[Dawud_uk]

Whether a report is from the Daily Mail, the Sun, the BBC, or any other media, it should not be taken as exact fact as they're trying to sell their product and so will make small lies to increase sales. Page 3 of the Sun is proof enough; sure her boobies look nice but they could be photoshopped!

However, neither should we condemn the report outright because of it.
Surely a school promoting violence cannot be a good thing in any way and needs to be investigated.

Just as an observation, it intrigues me that you can say that it's up the school what is being said when it's in a non-muslim country but if the roles were reversed I wouldn't be suprised to see something burning and placards promoting the beheading of such and such <GENERIC>This is not in anyway intended to be insulting, offensive or otherwise.</GENERIC>

Before anyone steps in anyway, I'd like to make this point clear:

Muslim protests seem to be more violent then most, burning effigies etc.
That seems to be the 'zeitgeist' of Muslim protests it seems, and so it has to be accepted that people outside of your spectrum see it extremely threatening and over the top.
If someone can show me protests where such things have not occurred then I'll gladly accept that, that sometimes happens.
Just a list of violent things I've seen in combination during such protests:

Placards promoting the beheading or some kind of GBH towards another.
Something burning. (Muslims love to burn something in relation to the protest, though I do admit it is fun )
Material covering the face of protesters. (Admittedly this is done with groups like Anonymous as well so it's not such a big deal)

if you want to stop the promotion of violence in schools then stop the army from holding recruitment days and cadet branches in secondary schools, which they do all over the uk.

 

[جوري]

lol.. what a hilarious thread.. they hate us, let's bully them into loving us. we here by sentence you to a seven month sentence of Harry potter marathon followed by a graduation ceremony at hoo terrrs

oh God what a hoot

 

[aamirsaab]

So it would be perfectly acceptable for your local rednecks to start a school with a white uniform and matching hood?

There's a difference between an Islamic (or religious) school and a KKK training camp.

If those Islamic schools were teaching their kids how to arm an Ak-47 or brandish a sword, and come in with matching military khakis, then I'd agree with your point.

As is, the allegations were being made at those schools' websites (which have since been taken down). In your example, I'd actually have evidence of questionable teachings.

I understand what you are getting at though. I agree that there should be a level of responsibility the school has (otherwise, it might as well be considered a training camp!), but unless those kids are actively being indoctrinated to hate the west (i.e being taught how to ''fight kuffar'') then I don't see any problem. The allegations were made against their websites which have now been closed down. There shouldn't be any problem then, surely?

 

[Azy]

The allegations were made against their websites which have now been closed down. There shouldn't be any problem then, surely?

I don't know.
Should we all feel comfortable that the problem has gone away because we can no longer see it?
The website itself is not the problem, it is the people and ideas behind it.

but unless those kids are actively being indoctrinated to hate the west (i.e being taught how to ''fight kuffar'') then I don't see any problem.

I'm unsure where I stand on this point.

Hypothetically speaking if they were being taught such things I doubt closing the schools would make much difference, it could quite easily move to private residences and become a free speech issue. (Not sure what the legal stance is on that)

Even if we're not talking about explicit teaching of hatred for the UK, as Dawud_uk said in another thread about policing, Islam places limits on the associations between Muslim and kuffar.
"Take from among them no friends, protectors or helpers" is, I think, the line he quoted.

If you were to take that seriously I don't see how you could justify living in the UK. You pay taxes to the government to fund the NHS, social services and police force (whether muslims are among the staff or not). Should all Muslims outright refuse police protection, medical assistance, state benefits and state education from kuffar while at the same time preventing Muslims entering government service as they would be implementing laws that are not Shari'a? Not even entering into friendship with non-Muslims?

Think about that for a second from the point of view of the people running this country. You have a group living within your community that do not respect your laws, intend to stay segregated and hate everything you stand for.

 

[Muezzin]

Azy, if you're intellectually honest, you'll come to the conclusion that issues like this are at the root of all faith schools, not just Muslim ones.

The study in question is far-right agitation intended to breed hatred for Muslims, as opposed to an anxious government trying desperately to quell an insurrection. Also, your claims about what was or was not being taught at those schools is conjecture. Therefore, your point about thinking about it from the point of view of the people running the country is moot. It was not a Government study to begin with. Of course, if paranoia is your game, play on. I love calling shenanigans.

I await the results of Ofsted's review though.

 

[aamirsaab]

I don't know.
Should we all feel comfortable that the problem has gone away because we can no longer see it?
The website itself is not the problem, it is the people and ideas behind it.

Fair point. I guess for me I'd need to have some more evidence (everyone is different tho)

Think about that for a second from the point of view of the people running this country. You have a group living within your community that do not respect your laws, intend to stay segregated and hate everything you stand for.

Oh I agree with you on that. Biting the hand that feeds is indeed very silly.

 

[Azy]

Azy, if you're intellectually honest, you'll come to the conclusion that issues like this are at the root of all faith schools, not just Muslim ones.

As you say, but this report, thread and forum are all about Muslims.

The study in question is far-right agitation intended to breed hatred for Muslims, as opposed to an anxious government trying desperately to quell an insurrection. Also, your claims about what was or was not being taught at those schools is conjecture.

The only claims or assumptions I made were that Islam was being taught, I barely looked at the report and didn't even consider it when writing my post.

 

[Suomipoika]

The study in question is far-right agitation intended to breed hatred for Muslims

What makes you say that? If I remember right the study seemed to emphasise that its small ammount of schools where the real problem is. What would be the correct way to criticise then without breeding hatred for muslims?

 

[Suomipoika]

It is a privately owned and funded Islamic school - which, if you aren't muslim, you probably are not going to send your kids to anyway. So what problem do you have in how a privately owned and funded school (which you are not even a stakeholder in!) functions?

I think it goes like "I think you have every right to say what you say, but I will condemn, ridicule and combat (with words) the stupid things they say and teach". If they teach hate, no matter how much it is indoors it should be condemned openly and wide.

 

[Muezzin]

As you say, but this report, thread and forum are all about Muslims.

You're still isolating Muslim schools when you really should be criticising faith schools as a whole, but okey-doke.

The only claims or assumptions I made were that Islam was being taught, I barely looked at the report and didn't even consider it when writing my post.

Well, frankly, that goes to show your prejudice. Your claims were not 'Islam is being taught', your claims were in effect 'an extremist version of Islam is being taught that teaches children to hate the country' which were based more on your conjecture than on the facts.

Unless I have misunderstood you, in which case I do apologise.

What makes you say that?

Read my first post of this thread. The things they count as 'breeding hatred' are ridiculous. It's entirely the wrong conclusion to draw. It is closer to the truth to say that perhaps this causes Muslim children to become socially excluded from non-Muslims, or contributes to this. There's a world of difference between social exclusion and actively teaching hate.

If I remember right the study seemed to emphasise that its small ammount of schools where the real problem is. What would be the correct way to criticise then without breeding hatred for muslims?

If Ofsted, the official regulator who is not some right-wing think tank like the organisation that carried out this report, comes to the same conclusion, I will believe Ofsted.

 

[Dawud_uk]

to be honest with the non-muslims and moderates here, i hate this country and its kufr values and have every intention of passing that onto my kids when i home school them.

but it is precisely because so called islamic schools dont teach al wala wal bara and other important concepts of the deen like kufr bit taghoot and the concepts of imaan being in actions and speech as well as in the heart that i wont send my children there to be misguided.

we should love what Allah loves, and have emnity towards what he has emnity towards, when it comes to britain and its championing of the shirk of democracy and the filth of liberalism then that emnity reaches the level of hatred, especially when this nation is involved in a war against the muslims and islam as a whole system.

 

[Azy]

Well, frankly, that goes to show your prejudice. Your claims were not 'Islam is being taught', your claims were in effect 'an extremist version of Islam is being taught that teaches children to hate the country' which were based more on your conjecture than on the facts.

I'd be grateful if you'd point out what it is about my post that made you think that.

Is Dawud's interpretation of 5:51 an unusual or extremist one?

Muezzin, I realise I haven't really addressed your concern fully, I will do that shortly but right now I need to go out for an hour, I'll post on the 'hate' issue when I return.

 

[Dawud_uk]

I'd be grateful if you'd point out what it is about my post that made you think that.

Is Dawud's interpretation of 5:51 an unusual or extremist one?

Muezzin, I realise I haven't really addressed your concern fully, I will do that shortly but right now I need to go out for an hour, I'll post on the 'hate' issue when I return.

that verse of the Quran is related but not what i would use as primary evidence for al wala wal bara.

There is a good example for you in Ibrahim and those with him when they told their people: Surely, we disassociate ourselves from you and all that you worship beside Allah. We have done with you. And there has arisen between us and you enmity and hate forever until you believe in Allah Alone.
Quran 60:4

there are other proofs also, whole books written on this concept of al wala bal wara, our emnity can reach the level of hatred but doesnt always, depending on the circumstances of the individual or the group that is being addressed.

O you who believe! Whoever of you becomes a rebel against his deen, (know that in his place) Allah will bring a people whom He loves and who love Him, humble towards the believers, harsh towards the disbelievers, striving in the way of Allah and not fearing the blame of any blamer.
Quran 5:54

 

[Dawud_uk]

And brother I too have total rejection for ur habit of deciding other's faith, but it proves ur point that definetely I m not same as U, and I thank ALLAH for that. My religion and faith doesnt allow me to speak more after the coming full stop, at least in this post.

alhamdulillah we agree upon something, we are not the same, your faith and mine are not the same.

 

[Muezzin]

I'd be grateful if you'd point out what it is about my post that made you think that.

Is Dawud's interpretation of 5:51 an unusual or extremist one?

That's the post.

It seemed more like your interpretation of his interpretation if you see where I'm going. I've always been taught that that particular teaching means not to take non-Muslims as very close friends or protectors, as opposed to never being friends with any non-Muslims, ever.

If it's just a big misunderstanding, which it looks like, I probably have egg on my face. Again. Oh well.

Muezzin, I realise I haven't really addressed your concern fully, I will do that shortly but right now I need to go out for an hour, I'll post on the 'hate' issue when I return.

Okay.

 

[Foxhole]

to be honest with the non-muslims and moderates here, i hate this country and its kufr values and have every intention of passing that onto my kids when i home school them.

This reminds me of a joke my brother told me years ago ...

"That movie was so bad I walked out on it three times ..."

You hate the UK, yet you plan to stay, have children, and teach them to hate it, too?

Do your blood pressure a favor ... emigrate.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

This reminds me of a joke my brother told me years ago ...

"That movie was so bad I walked out on it three times ..."

You hate the UK, yet you plan to stay, have children, and teach them to hate it, too?

Do your blood pressure a favor ... emigrate.

Kufr values have permeated every nation on earth to one extent or another. It isnt that easy to just up and go.



On a sidenote I find it amusing that your name is foxhole and your and atheist.... lol