Swiss minaret ban gains momentum

[mahi]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

Lets all have a religion debate
You're better than me, I better than you

Seriously, the amount of posts I've read of Christians and Aithiests here saying they don't agree with the ban, but then go on to defend it... Swiss culture or whatever.
It's not that hard to see you're glad that the ban has been put into place, even though no ones going to admit it, it's quite obvious. Same way that if Christians had a pillar, though not churches that was banned, many muslims would no doubt be happy. But its sad to say something and argue something else.

I can't see how anyone would fail to see this is as discriminatory against the muslims, it's not a ban on tall pillars, it's a ban on minarets.

Hi there

I'm Thomas from Switzerland.

I really can't believe what happened today. It's unbelievable.

Actually me and all my friends (who are against this stupid initative) where pretty sure it would have no success. It's so unreal right now. I'm really ashamed to be a swiss citizen.

It's so rediculous. Well I think the initiative is in some way illegal. It started to forbid minarets without any thought behind that (which is obviously ridicilous as well), that's why the federal assembly was not able to forbid the initiative.

In the mean time, SVP thought it would be a good idea to push all this in a way higher level..scare people with those "scary" posters and saying that it's not about the minaret, it's about switzerlands religion changing to islam.
I really did not hear ANY argument FOR the initiativ which is reasonable..

This hole thing is such a joke.. That's why I post here, to see what you think about the hole thing.

What do you think are there for consequences?

You can ask me any questions if you want.

Best Regards
Thomas

A mix of consequences, some good that it's shown to many the discrimination against muslims, as this received decent publicity. You have stuff like the hijab ban in France, and the list of rubbish is becoming too big.

And also that it brings out those who work on basic principles, who can see when things are clearly wrong even when that comes at the cost of seeing something they belong to as being wrong. No doubt many Swiss people are glad, but when you have non muslims like your self (assumingly) speaking out against things like these and doing things like protests, then its good times for everyone.

 

[KAding]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

Seriously, the amount of posts I've read of Christians and Aithiests here saying they don't agree with the ban, but then go on to defend it...

Huh, I haven't seen a single Christian or Atheist "saying they don't agree with the ban, but then go on to defend it". In fact, the only one who seems to agree with the principle is Amadeus.

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

It is up to the Swiss to decide what belongs to their cultural heritage. I'm sure they don't all agree! According to the campaigners, the heritage is "Christian values and democracy".

And what constitutes "christian values and democracy"?
You are only replacing a very vague term with another.

You know, my point as I have stated in my previous post is that the swiss have shown their true colors.
And you are replying with "the swiss only want to protect their cultural heritage".
Which is a lot of bs if you ask me.

The swiss true color is that they are intolerant, illiberal, islamophobe, xenophobe, and paranoid.

Ok, I'll take out the "xenophobe" as they actually do not always hate anything foreign, because they are greedily, knowingly, willingly take deposits of foreign (stolen) money which are tainted with blood of hundreds of millions people. A practice which I guess fits perfectly with christianity values and democracy.

If you ask me they cannot. But clearly this is all about symbolism. Those 60% are actually saying 'we don't like Islamization of our country'.

Now you are getting to your senses. They are indeed bunch of Islamophobes.

But to be quite frank, I don't quite understand how you as a Muslim can have such trouble grasping the sentiment that is at the root of this vote? Surely Islam teaches to dislike or even prohibit that which can lead to sin, which includes anything that can lead Muslims astray? To remove things that may "tempt or confuse the people"?

You should come forth with specific Islamic jurispridence and fiqh instead of
So what are they?

Surely it is exactly that sentiment that explains rulings such as:
- Rulings against non-Muslim proselytizing

Islam allows da'wah and balagh, which mean invitation and propagation. Prophet Muhammad SAW once received a christian guest in his mosque, giving the chance to talk about his faith.

However, proselytizing is different. There are some restrictions for non-muslim proselytizing in some Islamic countries. And do you know why it happened?
Teach yourself some world history and facts (both current and past) about exploitation tactics used specifically by christians in their proselytizing efforts.

- Rulings against Muslims converting to another religion

This ruling applies to muslims, so what does that have to do with non-muslims?

- Rulings against non-Muslims marrying Muslims

This ruling applies to muslims, so what does that have to do with non-muslims?
And anyway, muslim men are allowed to marry ahlul kitaab.

- Rulings against building churches in 'Muslim lands'

Come forward with examples and I will give you millions of counter examples of churches built in 'Muslim lands'.

- Rulings against giving Zakaat to non-Muslims

This is the Al Qur'an verse to whom we give zakat to:

“As-Sadaqaat (here it means Zakaah) are only for the Fuqaraa’ (poor), and Al‑Masaakeen (the poor) and those employed to collect (the funds); and to attract the hearts of those who have been inclined (towards Islam); and to free the captives; and for those in debt; and for Allaah’s Cause (i.e. for Mujaahidoon — those fighting in a holy battle), and for the wayfarer (a traveller who is cut off from everything); a duty imposed by Allaah. And Allaah is All-Knower, All-Wise”

[QS. Tawbah 9:60]

There is no mention that it must not be given to non-muslims. And even if it did, how does that concern the rights of non-muslim?

- Rulings on destroying idols

This is where you are right. Central to islamic faith is acknowledgement that there is only One God and to associate Him with anything else is the biggest sin a man can ever commit. Sadly, most majority muslim countries (such as Indonesia, Malaysia etc) do not abide by this ruling and instead let those idols in public places everywhere being worshipped.

It is exactly what this Swiss vote seems to have in mind. Namely restricting religious freedom in the name of 'protecting' ones own traditional values. As a liberal I cannot approve of it myself.

This is different than "The swiss people only want to protect their cultural heritage".

So you disapprove but you defend them?

LOL.

No. Because Eastern religions are not considered a threat by virtually anyone, which (unfortunately) is not true for Islam. Islam is also thought to be political, which makes it a more likely target. To put it in Islamic terms, Islam is considered kufr.

so now you essentially agree with me that the swiss people are Islamophobes.

Now lets hope that the Swiss constitutions, which is thankfully based on more liberal principles, prevents this vote from leading to actual laws that outlaw minarets.

In any case, this will only energize the muslims in Swiss to be active and aware of their rights and I hope they will build many more mosques with really tall minarets
This high profile case will also attract people attention and make many want to study Islam further.

 

[The_Prince]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

switzerland is no longer a secular country, this ruling contradicts the secular law as they are now specifically targetting one religion restricting its religous right of building a mosque according to their religous heritage, maybe you can call switzerland a secular dictatorship, but not a free secular country.

the bigger irony to this is that this proves that these racist Europeans will target Muslims no matter what, its not about extremism, or terrorism etc because last i checked there were hardly any Muslims threatning to attack switzerland, nor have i seen any Muslims attacking switzerland and forcing the swiss people to follow and conform to Islam or the dreadedddddddd sharia law. the swiss people have declared war on Muslims by this, they were the first to strike, without a single bit of provocation.

and after all of this you still get dumb Europeans who wonder why extremism goes on the rise and why you get angry Muslims.

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

Huh, I haven't seen a single Christian or Atheist "saying they don't agree with the ban, but then go on to defend it". In fact, the only one who seems to agree with the principle is Amadeus.

Have you seen any mirror lately?

First you said this:

As a liberal I cannot approve of it myself.

which means you don't agree with the ban.
Then you said this:

It is up to the Swiss to decide what belongs to their cultural heritage

which means you defend the swiss people for making the despicable decision.

 

[el_nota]

Minaretts on Switzerland

First of all, english is not my native speaking languaje, so I am sorry if I make mistakes.

I want to know the opinion about the subject of islamists, here in Spain almost everybody is against about the ban of the minaretts, but here is what I think and I want to know what do you think about it:

1) Switzerland is a Democracy, if Swiss people vote this, it must be respected.
2) What do you people think about building Churches and Cathedrals on Islamic countries?
3) Minaretts are not made for pray, it is not esencial, so your liberty of religion it is not cut, you may pray in one of the many islamic-churches that are in Switzerland
4) What do you think about this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plyS8sIUjmQ

 

[afzalaung]

Boycotting Switzerland



I just received a mail from a friend, campaigning to boycott swiss product. ( I cant really imagine much swiss products where i live, except maybe chocolates and watches)
anyway, here's the mail.
We must stand united to send a message strong enough.

__________________________

YOU all heard what that magazine in Denmark has published. It's making fun of our beloved PROPHET MUHAMMAD (P.B.U.H)

Moreover they refused to apologize because they considered it a practice of freedom and democracy. I ask you all to put your hands with other MUSLIMS and boycott the Denmark's products. 1.6 billion Muslim could really slap the economy in Denmark.

Netherland on the other hand has protected and endorsed the film makers, 'artists' and politicians such as Van Geert and Ali Hirsi that need no further mention or support. Again under their wonderful guise of 'freedom of speech'.

Germany is formulating ways to subjugate Muslims to abandon belief in Shari'ah, muslim culture, etc… if arriving to live in Germany you will be forced to sign certain contracts and perform certain tests that qualify you as a person who would adopt the German Culture and abandon your ideas. The questions even are ever so close ended to specifically target typical Muslim's views and beliefs on foreign policy, hijab, gender issues, shari'ah, etc… For sake of argument they may argue logically that coming to 'their lands' we must obide by 'their laws' and follow 'their culture' however past this simpleton logic is an overshadowed obvious agenda targetting Islam and Muslims in Europe which are on a rapid increase both in immigration as well as conversion. Germany has one of the fastest native conversion rates to Islam. Just youtube German converts to islam to get an idea. All this again in the name of 'making us all equal' while in fact subjugating Muslims to abandon Islam.

France has banned the hijab in the name of 'equality' as well in order to oppress and suppress the muslim women. Denying them education if they are to practice their religion.

Now Switzerland has banned minarets as another step to specifically target the spread of Islam and Muslims in Europe. The picture for the ban speaks volumes on it's own. They've openly stated this is about stopping 'islamization' of Europe. Funny how 'democracy' works, what if all the people want Islam? And more and more people are embracing Islam, they fear that growht of Islam and Muslims in the world. Another battle against Islam and Muslims.

One way we can fight politically and peacefully their 'peaceful' silent but yet effectively suppressive fight against Muslims is boycotting their products and foiling their economy. Every bar Coded product in the market containing its' country code included in barcode digits. Please check the barcode of any product before you buy.

Check the first 3 digits from the LEFT.

Example, an Israeli product will have barcode like:
729 3453459070

729 Israel
760 - 769 Switzerland
570 - 579 Denmark (i.e. 570, 571... 579)
870 - 879 Netherlands (i.e. 870,871... 879)
300 - 379 France
700 - 709 Norway
400 - 440 German


[8:36] Those who disbelieve spend their money to repel others from the way of GOD. They will spend it, then it will turn into sorrow and remorse for them. Ultimately, they will be defeated, and all disbelievers will be summoned to Hell.
________________________

Jazakallahu khair.

 

[Uthman]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

Europe's press says Swiss ban sends wrong signal

Middle East press sees double standards in Swiss ban

The Swiss ban makes me shudder

Minaret ban 'a security risk' - Swiss minister

 

[Rabi'ya]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland



In my opinion, we cannot expect a country which is not a Muslim country to be run in ways which are completely to our liking. A minaret is not central to being a Muslim or for following or spreading Islam. However, if we look at where this might be leading to, then may be seen as being slightly worrying.

 

[el_nota]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

In my opinion, we cannot expect a country which is not a Muslim country to be run in ways which are completely to our liking. A minaret is not central to being a Muslim or for following or spreading Islam. However, if we look at where this might be leading to, then may be seen as being slightly worrying.

Thats a very reasonable answer, what do you think about constructing other religion buildings in muslim countries?

 

[aamirsaab]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

First of all, english is not my native speaking languaje, so I am sorry if I make mistakes.

I want to know the opinion about the subject of islamists, here in Spain almost everybody is against about the ban of the minaretts, but here is what I think and I want to know what do you think about it:

1) Switzerland is a Democracy, if Swiss people vote this, it must be respected.
2) What do you people think about building Churches and Cathedrals on Islamic countries?
3) Minaretts are not made for pray, it is not esencial, so your liberty of religion it is not cut, you may pray in one of the many islamic-churches that are in Switzerland
4) What do you think about this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plyS8sIUjmQ

1) That's fine - I have no problem with it (although it does highlight the major flaw in democracy but I shall not go into it at this moment)

2) Technically speaking, you aren't allowed to build a church in an islamic state. However, since there are no islamic states, this is rendered completely moot (in practice anyhow). Also the point is completely irrelevant to the topic you raised. But oh well.

3) So that's reason to ban the minaret? I detect a disturbance in the force: troll logic is being used in this thread.

4) What about it? That's pretty much the most logical reason on the planet. XYZ religion says not to promote falsehood, so therefore it wouldn't allow falsehood. It's really quite simple and not at all difficult to understand.

 

[Fishman]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

1) Switzerland is a Democracy, if Swiss people vote this, it must be respected.

Just because people vote for something doesn't necessarily mean it isn't evil. Hitler was elected at least partially democratically, and everybody knows that national borders do not define morals.

2) What do you people think about building Churches and Cathedrals on Islamic countries?

Churches and Cathedrals should be allowed 100% in Muslim countries, unless they are built by dodgy missionary organisations. Honest Christians are welcome everywhere on God's Earth.

3) Minaretts are not made for pray, it is not esencial, so your liberty of religion it is not cut, you may pray in one of the many islamic-churches that are in Switzerland

Just because Muslims don't need minarets doesn't mean that they can be banned from having them for no good reason.
Black people didn't need to eat in posh resturants or sit on any bus seat they wanted either, but that doesn't make apartheid okay.

4) What do you think about this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plyS8sIUjmQ

People like this are completely intolerant, and their attitude helps to shake my faith in Islam to the core. Luckily for people here there are Muslims who do not hold this attitude that can try to steady my faith.

 

[mahi]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

It's not a massive issue, but the problem is that its specifically against minarets, which is clear discrimination. It's not a ban against all tall towers or tall buildings, its minarets. Its specifically minarets in Islam. It may be seen the same as banning black people from building towers they call x. It's not all towers, it's just the ones the black people build.

Of course if a ban on minarets for whatever reason is the wish of the majority of Swiss people, that's fine, that's up to them. Hopefully allowing respecting their wishes will allow better relations

 

[Predator]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

Looks like the same story as the banning of burkahs in France . Some people act as though they are biggest champions of democracy , but in reality they're making a mockery of democracy

 

[el_nota]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

I made the same sin as many people do, I thaught muslims=radicals, I thaught every muslim think that build non islamic buildings on their countries was wrong.
The main issue here is that Swiss people are afraid, I read that some people want to establish the "Sharia-law" in Switzerland for the muslims and the common one for the others, I suppouse this statement made by some radicals make people be afraid of you, the thing is that more muslims like you should go out and say "we do not all think like him! we are not radicals!"

About burkha, there is no chance I could agree with that, I think it should be banish from my country too, we all see it as it is, a manner of degradate the women.

The thing is that in the news, here in Europe the radicals are the people that make noise, the ones that do not want to adapt to the country but the country adapt to them what is a clearly mistake, for example, here a muslim women want to testify in front of a jury with the burkha on, the judge said that with that on he cant see if she was lying or not, so she had to take it off.

The whole point is that we all think you all are radicals who want to impose your religion and costums everywhere you go.

Sorry about my english

 

[el_nota]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

And yeah, about the thing that in muslims countries dont let people build their own churches doesnt let us the right to dont let you, but anyways I think you should be grateful and dont make a big cause about minaretts.

 

[Muezzin]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

Minarets? Well, as long as there's somewhere to pray, it's fine as a practical matter. In principle, it's unfair, but then, the mosque of Prophet (SAW) was ridiculously simple compared to those of today. The point of a mosque is to give the Muslim community somewhere to pray as opposed to making an architectural statement, no matter how beautiful the architecture is.

What is worrying is that this vote seems to be symptomatic of a blind fear of Islam among many Europeans.

The thing is that in the news, here in Europe the radicals are the people that make noise, the ones that do not want to adapt to the country but the country adapt to them what is a clearly mistake, for example, here a muslim women want to testify in front of a jury with the burkha on, the judge said that with that on he cant see if she was lying or not, so she had to take it off.

I seem to recall reading that, Islamically, in a court room, the veil is allowed to be removed.

However, I can't remember where I read this, its reliability etc, so perhaps another member can help me out here.

 

[el_nota]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

Just because people vote for something doesn't necessarily mean it isn't evil. Hitler was elected at least partially democratically, and everybody knows that national borders do not define morals.

Democracy is not perfect, so what do you suggest? Hitler dictatorship wasnt democracy, maybe he was elected, but we wouldnt be many more time if people voted while he was in power, (after they see what he was doing....)

 

[el_nota]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

I seem to recall reading that, Islamically, in a court room, the veil is allowed to be removed.

However, I can't remember where I read this, its reliability etc, so perhaps another member can help me out here.

She removed it but asked for the cameras to go out the court.

 

[GuestFellow]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

First of all, english is not my native speaking languaje, so I am sorry if I make mistakes.

Its fine.

1) Switzerland is a Democracy, if Swiss people vote this, it must be
respected.

I will never respect this decisions. I will tolerate it.

2) What do you people think about building Churches and Cathedrals on Islamic countries?

Christians should be allowed to build Churches so that they can pray with fear of being persecuted.

3) Minaretts are not made for pray, it is not esencial, so your liberty of religion it is not cut, you may pray in one of the many islamic-churches that are in Switzerland

Okay.

4) What do you think about this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plyS8sIUjmQ

??