Swiss minaret ban gains momentum

[Supreme]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

Which Islam are you following? Islamic rulings are quite clear about building non muslim places of worship in Islamic countries.

Really? Can anyone confirm this?

 

[Fishman]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

Which Islam are you following? Islamic rulings are quite clear about building non muslim places of worship in Islamic countries.

If it was so clear, then why this:

^evidence please? I don't recall anything in the Qur'an or sunnah forbidding non Muslims of building places of worship for themselves?

Which Islam are you following?

I don't really know myself, but it certainly isn't the Islam that you are proposing.

Yes, I agree your faith in Islam is quite shakey.

Shouldn't you be trying to reassure me that Islam is a good religion, rather than using my own spiritual turmoil as some kind of insult? I know my faith is very shakey. The real question is; what should be done about that?

p.s bro Fishman, faith is not a constant value, but youtube is not a good place for confirming or denying it right :/?

No, it isn't, and I firmly believe that Youtube is one of the most terrible sources one can use for anything. But that doesn't stop things I find from affecting me emotionally.

 

[mahi]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

^ to above
Don't really want to give you any written advice as it'd come out stupidly anyway, so I'll say one thing, read stories of the sacrifices of people like the prophet, or people like Saladin. Or read Qu'ran, and listen to some nice nasheeds as they're quite nice too at: http://www.salamtrain.com/

 

[Qingu]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

My thoughts:

• The ban is ridiculous, contrary to enlightenment ideals, and the Swiss should be ashamed of themselves.

• The ban is a good example of why popular, direct democracy is a really, really stupid idea. (We've seen many other examples here in America).

• If you're a Muslim and you don't think non-Muslims should be allowed to build big places of worship in your ideal country, you don't really get to complain about the ban in principle. (But if you are a Muslim who thinks Islam is somehow compatible with full religious tolerance, by all means, complain away!)

 

[Chuck]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

But that doesn't stop things I find from affecting me emotionally.

Like what? If you don't mind giving more info?

 

[Humble Muslim]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

This ban shows that we badly need a serious dialogue between Muslims and Non-Muslims

 

[aamirsaab]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

My thoughts:....
• If you're a Muslim and you don't think non-Muslims should be allowed to build big places of worship in your ideal country, you don't really get to complain about the ban in principle. (But if you are a Muslim who thinks Islam is somehow compatible with full religious tolerance, by all means, complain away!)

This was covered by Dr Zakir Naik in the youtube video, with his mathematician example. Although, a better and more understandable example would be that pork is haram for muslims to eat, thus by extention it is haram to sell it (or open a pork butcher shop) in an islamic state. Similarly, all other religions are not accepted by Allah, so an Islamic state cannot really allow them to propogate by allowing NEW places of worship to be built.

Remember; an Islamic state is a theocratic one and as such would not allow for propogation of other religions than Islam. It'd be like a Sony store selling an X-box. Or a Burger King selling a Big Mac.

 

[titus]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

Remember; an Islamic state is a theocratic one and as such would not allow for propogation of other religions than Islam. It'd be like a Sony store selling an X-box. Or a Burger King selling a Big Mac.

Another way of putting it would be "It's perfectly fine if we do it to other people, but it is wrong if they do it to us.".

I didn't realize tolerance was supposed to be a one way street.

 

[KAding]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

Another way of putting it would be "It's perfectly fine if we do it to other people, but it is wrong if they do it to us.".

I didn't realize tolerance was supposed to be a one way street.

Yeah, it is very much Islamic ideas like that one that no doubt cause many Swiss to be in favor of such a symbolic ban on minarets. They don't vote against minarets because they disagree with them architecturally. They vote against because what they believe Islam stands for. The real question is whether those beliefs are based on a fair and accurate reading of Islam.

 

[The_Prince]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

if Muslims believe that Churches arent allowed in the Muslim world, or to be built, then those Muslims really have no place to be complaining about this, their just getting a taste of their own medicine. i mean its nothing more than sheer HYPOCRISY, you can sugar coat it as much as you like, but if your upset, and complaining about the fact that you cant build a minaret in the west, yet you have no problem and believe Christians cant even build churches in your country, then your a hypocrite, as simple as that, no two ways about it, your a hypocrite with some superiority complex as well.

the least would be to say sure Christians cant build their churches here, but if they do the same to us, i will not complain and suddenly act like a champion of human rights and religous freedom, i will accept it and move on. that would be much better rather than acting like a hypocrite.

some Muslims might try to make excuses saying oh well europe is SECULAR, that still doesnt make you any less of a hypocrite, infact it means europe, the KAFFIR is a better example than you because they at least allow you to have your mosque in europe, while you dont want to offer the same to them in the Muslim world! so this response doesnt help out at all, it only makes the none-Muslim look like a better example than you are.

and lets not hide behind this ohhhhh europe is a secular argument, secular or not secular, Muslims are just mad (and have the right to be mad, just like i am) because minarets are getting banned down, its not because ohhhhh this is against secular law, its because were mad our religous right is being taken away, as simple as that. and since when did Muslims care about whether secular law is violated or not?

and hey, switzerland is a democracy as well, so if they vote in the majority, then you have to accept it, dont matter if your feeling is hurt or whatever, they voted in majority according to their constitution, hence it is legitimate. just like the silly argument hey in Islamic state its purely Islam so it makes sense for no other places of worship, well then hey, switzerland is a democracy, and they can vote in majority, and majority wins, so thats that. and even more, the swiss if they decide, can say well you know what, we may be secular, but we dont want your Islam, your not allowed to have it here, and that would be that, their country, their way, their majority culture.

 

[Supreme]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

Although, a better and more understandable example would be that pork is haram for muslims to eat, thus by extention it is haram to sell it (or open a pork butcher shop) in an islamic state. Similarly, all other religions are not accepted by Allah, so an Islamic state cannot really allow them to propogate by allowing NEW places of worship to be built.

Or, to put better, 'we're scared of people converting frfom our religion when other places of worship are built, so we'll try and keep conversions to a minimal by preventing it'. From an outsider's point of view, it seems a pretty desperate law to have in place.

 

[mahi]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

How many Christians do you know that are converts from Islam?

 

[GuestFellow]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

How many Christians do you know that are converts from Islam?

Nonie Darwish, but who needs her? XD

She is a big liar.

 

[Supreme]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

How many Christians do you know that are converts from Islam?

One, and only vaguely. I think she keeps a low profile in my church. I know everybody, just not that well:statisfie

 

[aamirsaab]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

Another way of putting it would be "It's perfectly fine if we do it to other people, but it is wrong if they do it to us.".

I didn't realize tolerance was supposed to be a one way street.

Comparing the rights of a democracy that has no religious stance vs a theistic state that has a religious stance is like comparing apples and oranges. This is exactly why I said: remember, an Islamic state is a theocracy...'' - that was a very huge clue!

Yeah, it is very much Islamic ideas like that one that no doubt cause many Swiss to be in favor of such a symbolic ban on minarets. They don't vote against minarets because they disagree with them architecturally. They vote against because what they believe Islam stands for. The real question is whether those beliefs are based on a fair and accurate reading of Islam.

In a word, no. This whole thing is based on fear and persecution of muslims who are a minority in the west. Switzerland is not known for its abundance of muslims and to date, there is no islamic politcal party (certainly none being close to election!) in any of the western countries, so there really is no real power that muslims have.

Ironically, events like these may actually lead to a revolution in Islamic political parties. Eventually, clever muslims are going to be in very high positions.

Or, to put better, 'we're scared of people converting frfom our religion when other places of worship are built, so we'll try and keep conversions to a minimal by preventing it'. From an outsider's point of view, it seems a pretty desperate law to have in place.

I guess you guys thing it would be ok if a muslim or a jew ran the vatican then? Or maybe you guys do go into Burger King and expect a Big Mac.

 

[mahi]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

And so many of the members on here are converts to Islam. But put that aside, comparing religions to make one look better than the other is stupid.

And anyone who says that the minaret ban is justifiable by saudi not allowing churches to be built is a fool.

 

[aamirsaab]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

And so many of the members on here are converts to Islam. But put that aside, comparing religions to make one look better than the other is stupid.

And anyone who says that the minaret ban is justifiable by saudi not allowing churches to be built is a fool.

FYI; that's not my justification.

 

[mahi]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

FYI; that's not my justification.

I know, I didn't even think that. It's true though, we should see how easy it is to build a large mosque in the centre of the Vatican. If it was easy, then they have my respect. I don't actually think we should, but just as a response to those going on about Saudi and churches. Though the Saudi thing is an interesting discussion and I get why some would use it here. Does anyone know how many Christians live in Arabia?

And in a revolution of Islamic parties, I agree, it could happen. Especially with getting the mass of youth in Islam involved as well. They're always so eager. But its hard for a muslim that's not a terrorist to get a voice in 'west', you know?

 

[Supreme]

Re: Swiss move to ban minarets as 'symbols of Islamic power'

I guess you guys thing it would be ok if a muslim or a jew ran the vatican then? Or maybe you guys do go into Burger King and expect a Big Mac.

I personally couldn't give a monkeys who ran the Vatican, I'm a Protestant, not a Catholic. And when I go into Burger King, I expect a burger. I really don't mind what brand or company makes it.

Ironically, events like these may actually lead to a revolution in Islamic political parties. Eventually, clever muslims are going to be in very high positions

There are Muslims in Parliament already. If the Conservatives got in, Britain would have a Muslim female in Cabinet.

And anyone who says that the minaret ban is justifiable by saudi not allowing churches to be built is a fool.

I agree, because they are two different countries. Saudi Arabia is run by a bunch of Wahabis who discriminate against just about everyone and run a self proclaimed Islamic state, whereas Switzerland is a free democracy with a secular stance where freedom of religion is allowed.

Does anyone know how many Christians live in Arabia?

In Saudi Arabia, I believe estimates put it at hundreds of thousands, although in reality it could be far higher.

I know, I didn't even think that. It's true though, we should see how easy it is to build a large mosque in the centre of the Vatican

Seeing as the Vatican is incredibly small and most of it is taken up by St Peter's Basilica, building any large building would be rather hard, especially in its center...

 

[Argamemnon]

Re: Boycotting Switzerland

As the Turkish minister said, just withdraw your money from Swiss and other western banks. If most Muslims did this, it would make a huge impact. But of course it won't happen.