Swiss minaret ban gains momentum

[Muezzin]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

She removed it but asked for the cameras to go out the court.

If the judge was okay with that, I see no problem.

My personal opinion about behaviour in courts generally is that all those present should listen to the judge.

EDIT: Also, this topic really belongs in the World Affairs section, so I'm moving it there.

 

[GuestFellow]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

And yeah, about the thing that in muslims countries dont let people build their own churches doesnt let us the right to dont let you, but anyways I think you should be grateful and dont make a big cause about minaretts.

I am grateful. Question to you, why should the Muslims in Switzerland be punished for what other Muslims are doing to Christians in Islamic countries?

Who is really creating the fuss? There were only 4 Minerats.

 

[el_nota]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

??

Well, maybe that video wasnt in the right place to post... its just I hate radicalisms in everyway and every religion.

If the judge was okay with that, I see no problem.
My personal opinion about behaviour in courts generally is that all those present should listen to the judge.

I dont remember very well but I think they made a big thing out of it because she did it too, arguing with the judge.
Anyway there is other case wich I remember better, very similar, she didnt want to remove her (not burkha but like a sheet on her head, I do not know the name) for the National Document of Spain, that way a police cant tell if she was the person of the document (you can tell by the ears a form of head) and she made a BIG thing of it, about her rights etc... the thing is that we think here that you want to impose your costums and that pisses us off.

 

[Fishman]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

Democracy is not perfect, so what do you suggest? Hitler dictatorship wasnt democracy, maybe he was elected, but we wouldnt be many more time if people voted while he was in power, (after they see what he was doing....)

People knew quite well what Hitler wanted before he was elected (discrimination against Jews, the conquest of the east, the formation of an Aryan master race etc), they just didn't know of the means he would use.

As you said, democracy is not perfect, since the voters themselves can make mistakes or be misled. There are few answers to this, but the Swiss can help themselves by not having such a direct democracy. Things like this wouldn't happen in most western countries (for example the UK) because we have representative democracy instead. Instead of any village idiot being allowed to just vote for what they want, the people elect a parliament of 'experts' with different agendas to make policies for them.

 

[Muezzin]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

I dont remember very well but I think they made a big thing out of it because she did it too, arguing with the judge.

If you're rembering correctly, and the court cameras allow the public at large to watch proceedings, like in the USA, then I can see why she would argue.

However, what the judge says must be followed.

Anyway there is other case wich I remember better, very similar, she didnt want to remove her (not burkha but like a sheet on her head, I do not know the name) for the National Document of Spain, that way a police cant tell if she was the person of the document (you can tell by the ears a form of head) and she made a BIG thing of it, about her rights etc... the thing is that we think here that you want to impose your costums and that pisses us off.

Again I don't have a citation for this, but I'm certain that for identification purposes, the veil is allowed to be removed.

EDIT: Oh, you mean the headscarf? I don't see why she would have to remove that. Her face would be visible, and can be compared to her photo etc.

 

[Uthman]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

Hi el_nota,

About burkha, there is no chance I could agree with that, I think it should be banish from my country too, we all see it as it is, a manner of degradate the women.

Any chance you could check out this thread?

 

[el_nota]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

I am grateful. Question to you, why should the Muslims in Switzerland be punished for what other Muslims are doing to Christians in Islamic countries?

Who is really creating the fuss? There were only 4 Minerats.

Thats right, we shouldnt, but cant you see our point of view? dont you think that the minority of islamic-radical living in Switzerland could make people get fear and because so try to control islamic?
I think there should be more people like you talking in public so the muslims doesnt get that poor image that we have about you.

Anyway I do still think that if it was democratic elected it should be respected.

What do you people would think if instead of Minaretts burkhas would be banished? Just asking

(Offtopic: seriously very interesting having a discussion with you, I like to know the way of thinking of you)

 

[el_nota]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

I'll check the links you posted, but tomorrow, here is too late and I have to work, I'll answer tomorrow too.
¡Salud!

 

[MuslimAgorist]

The Swiss minaret ban damages property rights

"If you make these laws to target Muslims today, you don't know who it's going to be used against tomorrow."
~Sheikh Alauddin El-Bakri - CAIR SV 7th Annual Banquet

On November 29th a referendum banning new minarets passed with 57% of the vote. The campaign included fear mongering posters, repeated vandalism to Geneva's largest mosque, and a vehicle with a loudspeaker mocking the call the prayer.

Amnesty International and others want to make this about freedom of religion. That’s a red herring in my opinion. This is about property rights. A person has the natural right to build any structure they wish on their own private property. Those who want to utilize the coercive power of the State against Muslims must take heed that the legal precedents they set can and will be used against others in the future. Probably themselves. The Swiss people, in their bigotry, have weakened their own right to private property.

Read more

 

[titus]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

Anyway I do still think that if it was democratic elected it should be respected.

If by respected you mean that the law should be followed then yes, I agree with you there. If by respected you mean that we should have not problem with it, then I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

This law is based on nothing more than fear and serves no purpose whatsoever, except to maybe piss off Muslims living in Switzerland. It most certainly is not going to make any Muslims say "You know what? I was going to become all radical and suicide bomb Zurich, but since they banned minarets I have changed my mind."

Since the country as a whole voted in favor of this all I can do is think that the majority of Swiss citizens are simple minded and intolerant.

 

[KAding]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

In my opinion, we cannot expect a country which is not a Muslim country to be run in ways which are completely to our liking. A minaret is not central to being a Muslim or for following or spreading Islam. However, if we look at where this might be leading to, then may be seen as being slightly worrying.

Yes, I absolutely agree. This is a very slippery slope. Once you allow laws to target one specific religious group, you are certainly opening the door for more serious and targeted infringements on religious freedoms.

 

[KAding]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

2) Technically speaking, you aren't allowed to build a church in an islamic state. However, since there are no islamic states, this is rendered completely moot (in practice anyhow). Also the point is completely irrelevant to the topic you raised. But oh well.

It certainly is not 'completely irrelevant to the topic'.

This whole discussion is about emotions and feelings, it is inherently linked to the perception of people about what Islam does and does not stand for. It has to do with fears associated with that.

As such it has a lot to do with the reciprocity as well. People are generally wary of granting things they believe the other would not grant to them if the roles were reversed, In fact, the very reason why Islam is sometimes viewed as a bigger threat than, say, Buddhism is exactly because it is thought to disallow such religious freedoms to others if it were 'in power'.

 

[KAding]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

First of all, english is not my native speaking languaje, so I am sorry if I make mistakes.

I want to know the opinion about the subject of islamists, here in Spain almost everybody is against about the ban of the minaretts, but here is what I think and I want to know what do you think about it:

1) Switzerland is a Democracy, if Swiss people vote this, it must be respected.

Accepted, perhaps. Respected, no. It's not because the majority in Switzerland believes this is a good idea that it is also the right thing to do.

2) What do you people think about building Churches and Cathedrals on Islamic countries?
3) Minaretts are not made for pray, it is not esencial, so your liberty of religion it is not cut, you may pray in one of the many islamic-churches that are in Switzerland

I do not believe it is the right of the state or the majority to determine how a certain religious group practices its religion, as long as it does not harm anyone of course.

 

[KAding]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

Churches and Cathedrals should be allowed 100% in Muslim countries, unless they are built by dodgy missionary organisations. Honest Christians are welcome everywhere on God's Earth.

In fairness, I hardly think even that should matter. A lot of mosques in the West are built using Saudi money and with the help of Saudi organizations. Does that mean we should not allow these mosques to be built?

 

[Amadeus85]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

Democracy is not perfect, so what do you suggest? Hitler dictatorship wasnt democracy, maybe he was elected, but we wouldnt be many more time if people voted while he was in power, (after they see what he was doing....)

You are a Spaniard? Read about Donoso Cortes, Ramiro de Maeztu, Jaime Balmes. They were writing about system 100% better than liberal democracy. Regards.

 

[GuestFellow]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

Thats right, we shouldnt, but cant you see our point of view? dont you think that the minority of islamic-radical living in Switzerland could make people get fear and because so try to control islamic?

Through minerats? Minerats don't do anything. I'm not really bothered by the ban, but I have failed to see a logical argument for banning them in the first place.

Probably some Muslims may be creating problems but not through minerats. You can ban minerats but it is not really going to solve anything.

I think there should be more people like you talking in public so the muslims doesnt get that poor image that we have about you.

There are Muslims who try to give set a example for other Muslims, the media tends to focus on more controversial matters to gain more publicity.

Anyway I do still think that if it was democratic elected it should be respected.

There is a difference between respect and tolerance. People may not agree with others but we can tolerate different views.

What do you people would think if instead of Minaretts burkhas would be banished? Just asking

Not sure. I rather avoid thinking what they might ban next.

(Offtopic: seriously very interesting having a discussion with you, I like to know the way of thinking of you)

Take care.

 

[aamirsaab]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

It certainly is not 'completely irrelevant to the topic'.

This whole discussion is about emotions and feelings, it is inherently linked to the perception of people about what Islam does and does not stand for. It has to do with fears associated with that.

As such it has a lot to do with the reciprocity as well. People are generally wary of granting things they believe the other would not grant to them if the roles were reversed, In fact, the very reason why Islam is sometimes viewed as a bigger threat than, say, Buddhism is exactly because it is thought to disallow such religious freedoms to others if it were 'in power'.

Topic title is called minarets in switzerland. Nothing to do with churches in islamic countries.

Though, I admit I was hasty with my force-hunch about this dude.

 

[titus]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

You are a Spaniard? Read about Donoso Cortes, Ramiro de Maeztu, Jaime Balmes. They were writing about system 100% better than liberal democracy. Regards.

A Catholic monarchy? No thank you.

 

[AbdullahSyed]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

Churches and Cathedrals should be allowed 100% in Muslim countries, unless they are built by dodgy missionary organisations. Honest Christians are welcome everywhere on God's Earth.


People like this are completely intolerant, and their attitude helps to shake my faith in Islam to the core. Luckily for people here there are Muslims who do not hold this attitude that can try to steady my faith.

Which Islam are you following? Islamic rulings are quite clear about building non muslim places of worship in Islamic countries.

helps to shake my faith in Islam to the core.

Yes, I agree your faith in Islam is quite shakey.

 

[alcurad]

Re: Minaretts on Switzerland

^evidence please? I don't recall anything in the Qur'an or sunnah forbidding non Muslims of building places of worship for themselves?

p.s bro Fishman, faith is not a constant value, but youtube is not a good place for confirming or denying it right :/?