The Bible -- What is it?

In the 50's AD the Council of Jerusalem was called because there was an attempt by some to bring in a "new gospel" of legalism into the teaching, reguiring Gentiles to be circumsized in order to share the Eucharist with the Jewish circumsized. Read Acts 15.

After this council met gnostism started taking hold. There had already been Jewish gnostics. They believed that knowledge gives salvation, the flesh is evil and the spirit is pure. They also practiced hedonism and asceticism. They wrote false gospels in the 2nd-4th century promoting their ideas.

There were other false "gospels" written, one to promote the worship of Mary.

The false "gospels" were written too long after the time of Jesus, taught things that Jesus did not teach, and basically just don't stand up to the textual Biblical Criticism the way the true Gospels dd.

Did Mohammad know about these false "gospels"?
 
Peace Gene,

My "Reader's Digest" condensed version before I got into one of my long winded speeches.

to simplify things and keep it short, you are correct my sources are Islamic.
Well, on point #1 above
1) That Allah did protect the True Gospel.
you have much company among many Christians. The prevailing view with regard to the scriptures that you will find taught in many churches is that God would protect and preserve his scriptures from corruption of the basic message they contain, even if there are certain anominallies in the copying process. Thus the view is that whatever we have today, it is exactly what God wants us to have.

Of course you would disagree with them as to whether that has in fact happened and what is and is not "the True Gospel", but at least there is agreement that God/Allah is in control of preserving it, not humankind.
 
no, I'd say mankind has a duty to preserve it, Allah presides over all things, but we still have to do the actions that lead to it's preservation, if no one wrote it or passed it down, would it still be preserved?
 
"no, I'd say mankind has a duty to preserve it, Allah presides over all things, but we still have to do the actions that lead to it's preservation, if no one wrote it or passed it down, would it still be preserved?"

I am sure that the disciples who walked with Jesus felt very responsible to pass on, record, save the message from GOD's WORD incarnate - Jesus.

They did protect the message with the help of the Holy Spirit.
 
no, I'd say mankind has a duty to preserve it, Allah presides over all things, but we still have to do the actions that lead to it's preservation, if no one wrote it or passed it down, would it still be preserved?
I agree that mankind has a responsibility with regard to passing on God's word, and to do so in a way that preserves its integrity. However, I don't think that we humans can corrupt something that God want's uncorrupted, even if we were to try. God is sovereign and in ultimate control of this world. Though he gives us freedom to cooperate or resist him, and even to make bad chocies that have impact on other peoples lives, I believe if God wants something to be a certain way, he has the ability to move in the hearts and minds of men to bring those things to pass. I especially believe that we will find this to be true with regard to the preservation of God's word.

So, the question is not about could he, but did he?
 
The bible is a collection of ancient texts or varying origins purposefully selected by a council of men. That is really all one can know for certain.
 
The bible is a collection of ancient texts or varying origins purposefully selected by a council of men. That is really all one can know for certain.


Which council are you referring to? And do you actually mean "selected", as in they choose the books? Or do you mean more like ratified what had come to be accepted?
 
Woodrow:I have no doubt Allaah(swt) did protect the True Gospel, for as long as it was needed

According to verse:
5:47
And the New Testament's/Bible's people should judge/rule with what God descended in it, and who does not judge/rule with what God descended, so those, they are the debauchers .

Was the Gospel needed in Mohammad's time?
 
The bible is a book. The End.

I personally, would rather read 1 page of the Tao Te Ching, then a chapter of the bible.
 
First we should know which translation, and which book like (Mormon, catholic, JW, OT, Jewish, protestant...)

They all claim have translated thier books from the original copies which

doesn't exist!!

1 billion Catholic add 7 books to thiers, and the rest trash 7 books, and the Jews do not believe a word of the second half of the Bible, and disagree with the OT Christians translation!!

BTW, All claim the holy ghost inspired them to write and translate.
 
I also had heard about fragments of Himyarite gospels from a Muslim Indonesian scholar. The gospel is in Southern Arabic found by an English man in Vatican Library, I guess around 18th C. I don't know whether it is translated into English or any other EU languages.

@Follower,

I think gospel is not needed by Muslims in Muhammad time. Psalm, Torah, and Gospels are in Quran. They are all from the same Guarded Tablet in a Holiest Place somewhere only He knows.

But there are certain scholars who are well-versed in Torah like the old cousin of Khadeeja, our honorable prophet's wife. His name is Waraqa Ben Naufal Ben As'ab Ben 'Abdul 'Uzza. When prophet and his wife met him after the Hiraa' event, he's already very old and blind. Waraqa is not considered as a Jew because he believes in Muhammad prophethood through the sign from his scripture. He had also proclaimed loyalty to Muhammad, but he died not long after they met. The revelation stop a while for about three years.

Sorry, this is in Malay:

http://rindu-akan-surga.blogspot.com/2008/12/peristiwa-di-gua-hira-imam-bukhari.html

Also Abdullah Ben Salam, the Madinah Jewish Rabbi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_ibn_Sailam

http://uiforum.uaeforum.org/showthread.php?t=1085

http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/bukhari/bh4/bh4_549.htm

Also Buhaira, I know certain Christian scholars may say that the Quran had some portion from New Testament because of this hermit. He had nothing to do with Quran. Prophet Muhammad was only 13 when he and his uncle caravan stopped by at the church in their way to Syria before the hermit had invited the uncle of that boy to bring him inside as he had saw the white cloud covering over the boy. He wants to see other signs of prophethood as what had been stated in his scripture and he never speak to the prophet but to the boy's pagan uncle (we don't know about how many version of gospels used at that time, so we just talk about what we know). Like we believe, and Christians in the forum or elsewhere say, we just believe in the Gospel that is revealed to the prophet Jesus (pbuh) and it is not exist anymore now. The various versions of gospels used by present day Christians contains fragments of Jesus speech. We Muslims can't differentiate which one is the specific revelation of G-d to him and which one is his speech based from the revelation and also the epistles of the Church Fathers being included together as Holy Scripture.

This is the place of the event and the place is called Bosra:

DSC_5283JPG-1.jpg


PB280525JPG-1.jpg


DSCN1902.JPG


Prophet Muhammad is already a Monotheist before Islam was revealed again. He is the follower of Abraham and Ismael and also their descendant. He never join his pagan people worshiping idols or celebrating any pagan celebrations. Muhammad was ordained a prophet and His messenger while he is meditating in the Hiraa Cave when he is 40 in 17th of Ramadhan or August 6th, 610 AD.

Hiraa cave where prophet Muhammad (pbuh) meditates according to the teaching of Abraham before he was ordained a prophet and a messenger of Islam:

innerviewhira.jpg


Mount_hira_cave1-1.jpg


I hope Saudi government could preserve the historical places but tightly guarding it from being the place of veneration by certain ignorant Muslims. We pity other people who wants to learn about Islamic History.
 
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First we should know which translation, and which book like (Mormon, catholic, JW, OT, Jewish, protestant...)

They all claim have translated thier books from the original copies which

doesn't exist!!
Are you saying that there never was an original to begin with? Or, are you saying that the original no longer exists?

1 billion Catholic add 7 books to thiers, and the rest trash 7 books, and the Jews do not believe a word of the second half of the Bible, and disagree with the OT Christians translation!!

BTW, All claim the holy ghost inspired them to write and translate.
While all translators would pray for the Holy Spirit's help in the process of translation, only a very small percent of Christians would ever suggest that the work of translation is something that has been done through the protection of the Holy Spirit. We generally recognize that however perfect one might hold the text of the Bible to have been in its original forms that it is not so perfect when one is referring to the copied and translated versions that are available for us today.
 
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I think gospel is not needed by Muslims in Muhammad time. Psalm, Torah, and Gospels are in Quran. They are all from the same Guarded Tablet in a Holiest Place somewhere only He knows.
Are you suggesting that Allah has produced a record of revelation for mankind that he at the same time keeps hidden from mankind?????
 
Are you suggesting that Allah has produced a record of revelation for mankind that he at the same time keeps hidden from mankind?????

The Guarded Tablet is in the place only He knows, but we get to know about the revelation when it's revealed to His prophets and messengers. We have no idea about the Holy Place, so we only talk based from what we learn in our scripture as I don't want to bear the burden in the hereafter, it will return back to me as a responsibility when I exceed the limit :X.

As for Psalm, Torah, and Gospel are comprised in Quran, it is because it came from the same G-d and Quran is the final revelation that canceling all of the previous revelation because it is renewed for the near dooms day period.

We don't have the creed that Jesus and G-d is the same person or any honorable prophets are the same person with G-d so we only believing in the Gospels revealed to him but not the Church Fathers' gospels. Prophets are all special in our eyes but not equate to Him because they are human and also we differentiate the revelation and inspiration. Revelation is only from G-d, while inspiration may both come from G-d and from demon. Revelation was only revealed to prophets and not ordinary human-being. Only ordinary human-being is inspired.

This is a narration about inspiration but it is not a Hadith, rather than a historical account about an event between prophet's companions, who is Ibnu Abbas and another companion. Ibnu Abbas is the son of Abbas Ben Abdul Mutallib, the uncle of prophet Muhammad (pbuh). He is among the closest companion of the prophet too.

One of a prophet companion had met Ibnu Abbas and said, "O Ibnu Abbas, Abu Ishaq claimed that he was inspired yesterday. And Ibnu Abbas repiled, "is that because you are believing him that made you rushing here in hurry?" and the prophet companion said: "are you saying believe?" Ibnu Abbas continued: "there is two kind of inspirations, one is from G-d and the other is from demon. The inspiration to the prophet is revelation from G-d, but the inspiration to his followers is from demon. Ibnu Abbas then recited the holy verse:

Eat not of (meats) on which Allah's name hath not been pronounced: That would be impiety. But the evil ones ever inspire their friends to contend with you if ye were to obey them, ye would indeed be Pagans.

(the meaning of Surah al-An'am 6:121)

Demons are the ones who inspired people to debate with each other and refusing the Truth from the group who follow the straight path and shaking their creed and fidelity to G-d.

Eat not of (meats) on which Allah's name hath not been pronounced: That would be impiety. But the evil ones ever inspire their friends to contend with you if ye were to obey them, ye would indeed be Pagans.

(the meaning of Surah al-An'am 6:121)

Islam detest debating and arguments except those related to the calling to Islam as long as it is still consistent with the Islamic norms and not exceeding what had been stressed in the Quran and the prophet tradition.

Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.

(the meaning of Surah an-Nahl 16:125)

Other arguments than stated as above are detested in Islam because most of them will bring bad implications.
 
Islam detest debating and arguments except those related to the calling to Islam as long as it is still consistent with the Islamic norms and not exceeding what had been stressed in the Quran and the prophet tradition.

Yes I have seen this- A Muslim is not to question anything in the Quran, some even guard hadith in such a way. It is not allowed that someone outside of Islam understand something different then what the Muslim, imam, tasfir says. I believe this is part of our misunderstanding.

Christians are to test are to test and question every scripture. Christians do and have tested the text of the Holy Bible through much criticism and textual alnalyzes. We have allowed the Holy Bible to be ripped apart- because we know it can withstand the test, it is from GOD.

1 Thessalonians 5
21Test everything. Hold on to the good.

We are to beware of false prophets- How do you know that a prophet is false? He must pass the test- his revelations must pass the test.

Matthew 7
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
 
Yes I have seen this- A Muslim is not to question anything in the Quran, some even guard hadith in such a way. It is not allowed that someone outside of Islam understand something different then what the Muslim, imam, tasfir says. I believe this is part of our misunderstanding.

Of course, we Muslims do not have to question the Quran. It is the Word of G-d cast to us through the tongue of the prophet, and we had already having our faith to previous revelation through Quran. We may think about Theology but it should not crossing the line of Quran and Sunnah (prophet tradition). If not, we are creating our own religion.

As you understand, we have the science of interpreting the Quranic verses. We have methods regarding the style of the language used in Quran and we can't simply take it as we desired, because we need to analyze it according to what He wants us to understand. We learned about why certain verses being revealed to the prophet, emaning of the words, and the moral of the verses.

This is different from the translation of KJV Bible in 16th C English. We still use the Quran that is in the language of our prophet as it is being revealed in it. Arabic is an ancient language just as ancient as other ancient languages, but since Arabs are not living in established environment, their language is not properly documented like after our prophet time.

As for Christians today, language is not important as the Bible is translated earlier into Greek and later to Latin. But for us, G-d had revealed the prophet in Arabic, and He had emphasized it Himself in the Revelation to the prophet. There are several verses about the revelation is in Arabic, that Muslims should take heed about it, one of them is as follows:

Thus have We sent this down - an arabic Qur'an - and explained therein in detail some of the warnings, in order that they may fear Allah, or that it may cause their remembrance (of Him).

(the meaning of Surah Tha-Ha 20:113)

Christians are to test are to test and question every scripture. Christians do and have tested the text of the Holy Bible through much criticism and textual alnalyzes. We have allowed the Holy Bible to be ripped apart- because we know it can withstand the test, it is from GOD.

Actually this had already happened since the time of our prophet lifetime. Not only Christians testing him, but also the Jews.

Like in these verses,

Say (O, Muhammad!): He is Allah, the One and Only 1 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute 2 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten 3 And there is none like unto Him 4

(the meaning of Surah al-Ikhlas 112:1-4)

The reason why the verses was revealed:

In a narration from Abu Syaikh from Aban with the source from Anas Ben Malek, it is reported that a group of Jews from Khaibar had met the messenger of G-d and said: "O father of Qasim! G-d had created the angels from the light of His Veil, Adam from the clay, Devil from the Fire rising up high, sky from the smoke/wasp, and earth from the bubbles of water. Now, explain to us about your G-d." Thus, these verses were revealed to the prophet as to answer their questions.

This is how Jews had also tested other previous prophets. The prophet Jesus (pbuh) too was tested with questions by the Jews. Some of the Jews had entered Arabian Peninsula and lived there after they heard the prophecy about the final prophet. They waited there from generations to generations and hoping that the prophet will be from among the children of Israel who live in Arabian Peninsula. However, they were disappointed due to that G-d did not fulfill their desire. They thought that they are Greatest than G-d to ask G-d to fulfill everything as they like as He is some kind of Genie of the Lamp. The final prophet had been pre-destined to be raised from the Children of Ishmael among the descendants of Kedar.

According to other narrations based from the source of Abdullah Ben Abbas Ben Hatim, among those Jews who asked the prophet about G-d in Islam is Ka'ab Ben Asyraf Ben Hayy Ben Akhtob. This is stated by Ibnu Jabir from the source that he got from Qatadah and Ibnu Mundzir from the earlier source of Said Ben Jubir.

Also in another narration, it is reported that this Surah al-Ikhlas was revealed due to the questions of the pagans about the nature of G-d. The main content of this Sura is to answer the questions of the people in denial (Jews or the Pagan Arabs of Mecca) about the nature of G-d.

This is also the source of our Creed as Muslims, believing in Allah the Holy G-d. Worships (enslavement) of ourselves only to Him.

Say (O, Muhammad!): He is Allah, the One and Only

The word (Say!) is in imperative mood. This is an order from Him, to Muhammad and the Muslims to answer to the others when they are questioned about the nature of G-d. To say that He is only One (Ahad/Ekhud), not divided into several persons or personality. He tells us that He has no associations with anyone, solely Him.

Allah, the Eternal, Absolute

Allah needs not his creatures. He is independent. Creatures are those who need Him. From where is our force? From where is our souls (including the soul of Moses, Jesus and Muhammad)? From where we've got our food? Every force, life, and blessing are coming from Him. we have this phrase that we recite whenever we face hardships and trials, "Indeed, that we belong to G-d, and to Him we will return."

Allah needs not His creatures to live. He is already there, because His life is not from others. He is since before the beginning, and will continue in existence forever. We are those who will not last long whether we deny it or not.

He begetteth not, nor is He begotten

Adam, the first human created without a father and a mother and was not born like ordinary human-being. But he experienced normal death. Human continue to exist in the earth through reproduction system. Human being born since Adam an Eve till today.

Allah is Independent (QiyamuHu Ta’ala bi nafsiHi). He is already exist without anyone creating Him and He is not begotten He never dies, and will never dies. Allah is Eternal. He doesn't have to have children or descendants to keep existence continue like human. Thus, anything that experienced death or destruction, are disqualified from being assumed r worshiped as G-d.

And there is none like unto Him.

There is no one who is equal to him. No one is the same like him. He is Unique. He has no parents that giving birth to Him and no one had created Him. He never goes to the market, nor need food to continue living. He never exhausted or sleeping. Allah always Live, never dies. The verse ordered us to: "Say to Me! Is there any substance like this other than Allah? Bear witness that you had chosen Allah as G-d. Bear witness that n One should be worshiped except Allah!

This is and example on how the Quranic verses being interpreted by Muslims. We checked everything including the words used, the structure of the verse, the mode, the tone, the reasons behind the revelation, conjunction to historical events, and etc. Every Muslim who wants to interprete the Quran must first being well versed with the Science of Quran which has various sub-branches and understanding the importance of Quraisy Arabic.

This is in Malay, for documentation

http://manhaj-salaf.net46.net/surat-al-ikhlash-memurnikan-tauhid/
 
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As for Christians today, language is not important as the Bible is translated earlier into Greek and later to Latin.

I hope you are aware that while none of the Bible was originally written in Latin so that any Latin verision is a complete translation, that some parts of the Bible were actually composed in Greek when originally written down. Thus it is possible when dealing with a particular book of the Bible -- like say Paul's letters to the churches in Corinth, Philippi, or Thessalonica -- that it was actually originally written in Greek and is therefore not a translation out of any prior tongue.
 
I hope you are aware that while none of the Bible was originally written in Latin so that any Latin verision is a complete translation, that some parts of the Bible were actually composed in Greek when originally written down. Thus it is possible when dealing with a particular book of the Bible -- like say Paul's letters to the churches in Corinth, Philippi, or Thessalonica -- that it was actually originally written in Greek and is therefore not a translation out of any prior tongue.

Oh yeah, the epistles are written in Greek and several languages too. What I mean there is the Gospel that comes out from the tongue of the honorable prophet, Jesus (pbuh) according to Islamic tradition :).

In what I can see, the epistles seem like the interpretation of the speeches from god Jesus. Is that correct in Christians view too? This is a question requiring Christians view :statisfie, thanks.
 
In what I can see, the epistles seem like the interpretation of the speeches from god Jesus. Is that correct in Christians view too? This is a question requiring Christians view :statisfie, thanks.
No. I don't think of the epistles as an interpretation of any of Jesus' speeches. I see most of them as instructions on how to put into practice daily Christian living in light of what they believe God has done for them in and through the work of Jesus.
 
malayloveislam
You are correct the language of message from GOD in the Holy Bible is not as important as the message. The message of the Holy Bible is available in every language spoken in the world. The beauty of the Holy Bible, it is for everyone to read and understand in their own language.

Hebrews 4
12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-God-Word.html

"In what I can see, the epistles seem like the interpretation of the speeches from god Jesus. Is that correct in Christians view too? This is a question requiring Christians view , thanks"

2 Timothy 3
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

The Epistles are also considered to be the inspired Word of GOD. GOD gave "thoughts" to Paul and he put those thoughts from GOD into his own words, language.

2 Peter 3
15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
 

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