the message of prophets in christianity

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sorry for going off-topic, i was also wondering if christians think of jesus as a prophet at all? i understand you think his the son of God, but does that also make him a prophet? and also clearly you believe in jacob, joseph, jonah and the other prophets so according to your belief was jesus the last one?

Jeses here told his audience that He was more than a prophet, and that He would die, be buried, and rise from the dead.

Matthew 12:38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." 39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 "The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
42 "The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

In this parable, Christ claims that He is the Son of God, and is the last prophet.

Mark 12:1 Then He began to speak to them in parables: "A man planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a place for the wine vat and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.
2 "Now at vintage-time he sent a servant to the vinedressers, that he might receive some of the fruit of the vineyard from the vinedressers.
3 "And they took him and beat him and sent him away empty-handed.
4 "Again he sent them another servant, and at him they threw stones, wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully treated.
5 "And again he sent another, and him they killed; and many others, beating some and killing some. 6 "Therefore still having one son, his beloved, he also sent him to them last, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 7 "But those vinedressers said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 8 "So they took him and killed him and cast him out of the vineyard. 9 "Therefore what will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vinedressers, and give the vineyard to others.

This is also taught in:

Hebrews 1: 1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
 
Jeses here told his audience that He was more than a prophet, and that He would die, be buried, and rise from the dead.

Interesting to note that, every prophets believe they will die, be buried (naturaly) and be raise from the dead.

Actually we muslim believe it will happen to mankind. Everyon will die, buried and raised..
 
Peace Eric :),

Just out of curiosity, are you saying your understanding is that jesus and God are equal in perfection however there is only one God?

so, and forgive me if im understanding wrong, but the trinity states that God is in the spirit and jesus, therefore the spirit (gabriel) and jesus are equal to God?



Im sorry if i have misunderstoood.


Hope to understand more :)

Please forgive my slowness in responding to your questions. I have been busy with other things, and even now only have a moment, so will have to leave some things unaddressed till later.

I believe that duskiness has answered well. I am not sure I would have worded things the same as Eric has. But I must admit that even among the clergy of Christianity that there are those who seek what God is revealing regarding himself and come to similar but not identical understandings. Some might call that confusion (and it can be confusing when one asks a question and receives more than one answer), but I think the reason is actually simple: the mystery of God is so deep that no mere human can ever understand God fully in this life.


Rather than saying that God and Jesus were equal in perfect, would simply say that Jesus, being God incarnate, was indeed perfect. We do not think of Jesus and God as two distinct beings. While it might sound strange to a non-Christian, a Christian can read the Bible and every place that God is mentioned substitute in its place the name Jesus, and vice versa. Thus we would not find it wrong to understand that in the beginning Jesus created the heavens and the earth, or to say that God died on the cross.

As to the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is also just another manifestation of the one, same God. The spirit is NOT Gabriel. Gabriel is Gabriel. Gabriel is an angel. The Spirit is not an angel, and angel is a created being. The Spirit is not a created being; the Spirit is God. And God is Spirit. So, if you are following me, you could even say that in the beginning the Spirit of God created the heavens and the earth.

Whether one is talking about God, Jesus, or the Spirit Christians are talking about one and only one being. God the Father is not more God than Jesus is, and the Spirit is not less God than Jesus is. They are all one and the same being. The one and only God who created the universe and through whom the universe continues to be held together.

So Jesus does not just give us words about God, Jesus is the living Word of God walking and breathing and living amongst us. I suspect, if a Muslim truly understood what Christians meant by this, they would have even more objections to the Christian understanding of Jesus (i.e. God dying on the cross as a sacrifice for all of humanity.
 
Originally Posted by cheese
Also, my original questions hasnt been answers about why all the other prophets didnt know about the trinity?
Still hoping for an answer... :?

We don't know whether the other prophets might have known about the trinity and simply not shared it because that was not the message they were sent to deliver. Or if that was something that would be revealed only in the fullness of time. I tend to think the latter, but there are hints about the trinity that looing back as a Christian I can see were already there in the Old Testemant, though I don't know that I would have recognized them as such if I had been living in those days without the knowledge I have now from my reading of the New Testament.

Now, you seem to think that if God did not reveal it all that God was then hiding something. I disagree. In the sense that when my children ask me about where babies come from, I give them the answer that they are able to deal with, depending on their level of maturity. When they were very young, babies come from their mommy's tummy. As they got older, a little bit more, until they knew the whole truth. Was I hiding the truth from them. Well, some might say, yes, I was. You might even say that. Yet, even it that is your point of view, I hope you don't think that I was being deceptive.

Likewise with God. I tend to view God's revelation as being progressive, till it reached it culmination and perfection in Jesus Christ. (Sorry, this is why I might say that Muhammad (pbuh) was a prophet, but not THE prophet.)

Further, if people not having the entire revelation makes God guilty of hidding the truth and being a deciever, then we have the same problem in Islam, that you are suggesting is present in Christianity.

Muhammad (pbuh) was supposed sent to all mankind, but there was no way to accomplish that in his lifetime. So, those people who lived beyond the prophets influence were living without revelation.

Worse, according to Islam, God sent this same message all the previous prophets each to share with their own people. Yet, God who is almighty and gracious, allowed this message to be corrupted. And thus allowed for a false message to be presented. Islam believes the the message had to have been corrupted within the first generation of Christianity or it must accept the Bible Christians use today as containing the true revelation of Jesus Christ. So, either the Bible is right, or God allowed the first generation of Christians to corrupt the Bible and waited 700 more years before bothering to send a new messenger to correct the error all the while the corrupted message was being allowed to spread around the world.

I think your question is a good one. But the implications of it are not ones that I would think a follower of Islam would want to pursue. Rather, I think you might prefer to join me in my opinion: God is not a deceiver, and not revealing everything to everyone until they are ready for it does not make him one.
 
i am convinced that the trinity concept is comprehensible only to christians.
i don't even try.
 
In three days?[/QUOTE]

:sl:

the "Christ" that most "Christians" believe in wasn't dead for 3 days and 3 nights, as Jesus is quoted as saying, either.

even though it was supposed to be the ONE "sign" (Matt 12:40) that he was to give...

while the NT DOES say that baptism is supposed to be in the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit, ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE in the NT will you find "the name of the Father" as they where Jews who have "forgotten" it OR the name of of the Holy Spirit! (which, maybe they never had) but it's more like a "duo" than a trinity.

but no Prophet EVER preached anything but pure monotheism, including Jesus/Isa(as)...

we owe our current understanding of "Christianity" to the Council of Nicea 325AD; which was bought and paid for by a "pagan" Emperor. :offended:

i, for one, would love to see the "original" gospel/injeel!


:w:
 
but no Prophet EVER preached anything but pure monotheism, including Jesus/Isa(as)...

Christians are in agreement with this statement.

i, for one, would love to see the "original" gospel/injeel!

When I talk to Muslims, they always say they believe in the Gospel. If Muslims believe that the original Gospel is lost in antiquity, and therefore don't know what it contains, how can they say they believe it? Could you explain to me what you personally believe the Gospel message is?

Also, if you don't know what the original Gospel message is, how can you know that the Bible doesn't contain it?
 
When I talk to Muslims, they always say they believe in the Gospel. If Muslims believe that the original Gospel is lost in antiquity, and therefore don't know what it contains, how can they say they believe it? Could you explain to me what you personally believe the Gospel message is?

Also, if you don't know what the original Gospel message is, how can you know that the Bible doesn't contain it?

:sl:

well if your referring to me, you might want to check some of my posts!
:giggling:

i can show you that you don't even believe what YOUR bible says. NOT because i'm a Muslim, that's a rather new developement, but because i've studied the issue for 3 decades.

btw, you AGREE that Jesus(as) preached monotheism, yet you've come to believe that in order to worship him, you now reject what he preached...

also, i "hear" the SAME message that Jesus(as) spoke in the teachings ,sayings and life of the Prophet Mohammed Salalahoo Alaihe Wa Salaam! and when i hear the Qur'an explained!

Could you explain to me what you personally believe the Gospel message is?

La Ilaha Illal Lahu

:w:
 
Hi dougmusr,

When I talk to Muslims, they always say they believe in the Gospel. If Muslims believe that the original Gospel is lost in antiquity, and therefore don't know what it contains, how can they say they believe it? Could you explain to me what you personally believe the Gospel message is?

Also, if you don't know what the original Gospel message is, how can you know that the Bible doesn't contain it?

Just to takle one part at the time, inshaAllah:

  • How do Muslim believe in something they have no knowledge of.

Simple, the authority of the Injil is given to us by God, God tells us that He sent a revelation to Jesus named the Injil, so thus we have no reason not to believe actually, since we believe in God it is essential we believe in it, since God vouches for it himself.

If God asks you to believe in something which you don't know about, never heard of, but He tells you 'I done this and I done that' would you not believe Him?

  • What does the Injil contain

It is revelation from God to Jesus for Jesus to give to his people whom he was sent to. Other than that I don't think much is told about it, as it is not something neccesary.

  • How do we know that the Bible does not contain the true Gospel since we don't know what the True Gospel is

From an Islamic point of view, we have been told that it has been changed by individuals, also, we are told that Jesus is not the Son of God or God, so it is in that sense Illogical to think that Jesus would have had a revelation stating the likes of what is in the Bible.

The above is all brief and to the point, hope it helps.

Eesa.
 
I haven't a clue what this means.

:sl:

Salaam,

basically it means "there is no G-d (Allah(SWT)) worthy of worship except G-d (Allah(SWT))

the Jews had substituted ceremony for religion. Jesus(as) told them that they were already going to loose their temple and unless they return to proper worship that their very existance in Eratz Yisrael was at stake.

regarding what the bible says though, NO church goes by the bible 100%, i've checked.

at some point it always come to "OK, we see what it says, but we don't believe that."

it's very frustrating.

peace

:w:
 
the Jews had substituted ceremony for religion. Jesus(as) told them that they were already going to loose their temple and unless they return to proper worship that their very existance in Eratz Yisrael was at stake.

Is this stated in the Quran?
 
Is this stated in the Quran?

:sl:

Salaam Doug,

alot of folks online get confused when talking to me. the vast majority of my thoughts about the time period of Jesus'(as) life come from non Muslim sources.

i try to use Jewish sources for Jewish stuff and Christian sources for Christian stuff. i can't honestly explain everything that Islam says about Isa/Jesus(as) cuz i don't know and/or understand it all. i've read all the Qur'an, but not all the Ahadith...

the Jews had substituted ceremony for religion.
that comes from both sources. why do you think Jesus(as) was calling them hypocites?

Jesus(as) told them that they were already going to loose their temple

that's my take on what he was saying. he frequently referred to the tearing down of the temple. "you're going to loose the temple, but you can still worship G-d (Allah(SWT)." so now the message will be based totally on the answer to the question "am i my brother's keeper" and obeying G-d (Allah(SWT)). which if you look at discussions amongst the Pharisees just before the the end of the 1st century BCE, that's exactly what the 2 different schools of thought(Hillel & Shimei) were debating. Jesus's(as) words mirror those of the Hillel school.


unless they return to proper worship that their very existance in Eratz Yisrael was at stake.

that's more of a deduction as Jesus(as) WAS a Prophet and that's what happened. he said don't listen to false prophets, they did. they got the boot.

but going to history, the Jew's WE'RE looking for their Messiah to come. when Jesus(as) was alive the Jews were POSITIVE that they were going to get independance from Rome with the coming of the Messiah. they were on pins and needles waiting for him. Jesus(as) warned them about those false prophets. the first series of false Messiah's led to the destruction of the temple. after that, there was another revolt, another "Messiah", Bar Kochba, iirc, and at that point Rome just said "enuff is enuff".

Prophets are warners, there words and deeds need to taken in context with what was happening at the time. of course we can't know exactly what Jesus(as) said unless Allah(SWT) tells us, or the Catholic Church reveals what documents still survived, if any, at the time of Nicea 325 CE.

btw, there were also Jews in Medina/Yathrib awaiting the "final prophet" at the time of the Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) as well! but that isn't covered in the Jewish stuff that i have/or had.

:w:
 
In three days?[/QUOTE]

:sl:

the "Christ" that most "Christians" believe in wasn't dead for 3 days and 3 nights, as Jesus is quoted as saying, either.

even though it was supposed to be the ONE "sign" (Matt 12:40) that he was to give...

while the NT DOES say that baptism is supposed to be in the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the Holy Spirit, ABSOLUTELY NOWHERE in the NT will you find "the name of the Father" as they where Jews who have "forgotten" it OR the name of of the Holy Spirit! (which, maybe they never had) but it's more like a "duo" than a trinity.

but no Prophet EVER preached anything but pure monotheism, including Jesus/Isa(as)...

we owe our current understanding of "Christianity" to the Council of Nicea 325AD; which was bought and paid for by a "pagan" Emperor. :offended:

i, for one, would love to see the "original" gospel/injeel!


:w:

I for one would also like to see the original documents, simply for the same reason I like to see the original copies of the Declaration of Independence in Jeffereson's own handwriting. But, as far as your supposition that what we have is not "original" in content, other than a few variant readings (ones that in my opinion do not effect the whole of the message) I believe we do have the original gospel. Those who believe otherwise have their beliefs, and out of respect for the originators of this forum, I will not here try to change them. But though you may make all sorts of claims otherwise, what you are stating is opinion based on your beliefs, not historical fact. Yes, the same charge could be levelled at me at the moment. But your idea that our current understanding of the Trinity is owed to Constantine and the Council of Nicea is at best a half-truth. The texts on which the ideas which were discussed at Nicea are articulated in both the Bible and in other Christian writings in the first century. The Council did not meet to invent (my word, not yours) the Trinity, but in response to the development of Arianism, a non-trinitarian heresy that was a new development in the Church. Nicea merely kept the party line of orthodox Christianity which had been taguht over the previous 200+ years.
 
I for one would also like to see the original documents, simply for the same reason I like to see the original copies of the Declaration of Independence in Jeffereson's own handwriting. But, as far as your supposition that what we have is not "original" in content, other than a few variant readings (ones that in my opinion do not effect the whole of the message) I believe we do have the original gospel. Those who believe otherwise have their beliefs, and out of respect for the originators of this forum, I will not here try to change them. But though you may make all sorts of claims otherwise, what you are stating is opinion based on your beliefs, not historical fact. Yes, the same charge could be levelled at me at the moment. But your idea that our current understanding of the Trinity is owed to Constantine and the Council of Nicea is at best a half-truth. The texts on which the ideas which were discussed at Nicea are articulated in both the Bible and in other Christian writings in the first century. The Council did not meet to invent (my word, not yours) the Trinity, but in response to the development of Arianism, a non-trinitarian heresy that was a new development in the Church. Nicea merely kept the party line of orthodox Christianity which had been taguht over the previous 200+ years.

:sl:

Salaam Brother!

no time to respond cuz just got home, but let me ask you a question, or 2.

1st of all, how are you?? :D

i'm not sure i used the word "invented" for the our current understanding of the Trinity cognifed and enforced byConstantine and the Council of Nicea. i'm sure i would have that word more to deal the current "holidays" the CC uses!

see the difference! ;)

over the years the church eliminated any Christians who held on to Jewish beliefs or even ideas that weren't the same as theirs.

i'd have to find the source, but it IS currently believed that the 3 synoptic gospels and the 1st half of Acts are ALL taken from a Hebrew/Aramaic source.
it's not JUST my belief. we have current non-Muslim sources, some,iirc, Christian, some Jewish that concur.

However, it's also in the Qur'an! Source of sources!

what translations of the bible do you use? i'll see if i can show you some of the changes.

when i have time i'll show you by web sites how Nicea formulated stuff that didn't exist before, cuz you're claiming it ALL did right?


btw, i only sat down to have a bowl of ice cream!

hope your well!

Peace,

:w:
 

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