the message of prophets in christianity

[Grace Seeker]

I know that in the broader point you were showing that circular reasoning is what is done by some, I just wondered if you were of the people that 'often' cite the verse as proof.
Eesa.

I know that in the broader point you were showing that circular reasoning is what is done by some, I just wondered if you were of the people that 'often' cite the verse as proof.

Well, now you know. I'm not.


If you keep following the thread back, you'll find that others had quoted the Qu'ran to me in order to prove my views regarding Jesus to be in error -- as if it had an authority vs the authority of the Bible.

Basically, I'm saying that two can play that game if one wants to, but I don't think it proves anything for either of us.

I think the Qu'ran is authoritative in so far as it expresses beliefs held by those who adhere to its teachings. That's about it.

So, if someone tell me that they know the Bible is in error regarding the crucifixion of Christ or the sonship of Jesus because the Qu'ran says that such beliefs are erroneous, it is going to carry as much weight with me as if I told you that I know these things are true because the Bible told me so.

However, as I said, I do think the Qu'ran is authoritative in so far as it expresses beliefs held by followers of Islam. I would expect that thinking Muslims (and I'm sure most here are) would recognize the authority the Bible has regarding the beliefs of Christians. Without such mutual recognition any discussion becomes "debate" on the order of children in a playground simply saying "Is so." "Is not." Is too." "Na-hah." I don't think either of us has time for such ridiculousness.

 

[Umar001]

Yes, I understand that and what your point was, I was just curious as to whether you held that that verse was a proof for such a thing.

And as you have stated now I know you are not of those people.


Eesa

 

[YusufNoor]

I'm absent any of my Bibles which would show alternate readings at the moment. I'll try to remember to check them later. However, I am not at all familiar with the Ferrar Fenton you mention. Can you fill me in?

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Salaam Gene,

the Holy Bible in Modern English translated direct from the original Hebrew, Chaldee and Greek languages by Ferrar Fenton

it was done in the 1800's, so don't expect the English to be TOO modern! :giggling:

the OT is laid out just like the Tanakh and NT is in different order.

http://www.artisanpublishers.com/bk_ferrar_fenton_bible.html

i've used that company before for their Stephen M Collins stuff and other "Lost Tribes" stuff.

Collins is a "Where was Jesus" type, but interesting nonetheless. the work on Parthia, book 3 (out of 4) in a series on the Israeli Empire, is VERY interesting! form it's comparison of Parthia to Rome as superpower to setting the atmosphere for the birth of Jesus. the most unusual and original "hypothesis" for the "Magi" to boot!

for me, better than Dan Brown!

i found a download for the Ferrar Fenton...but it turned out to be a rascist site ffended:

Peace,


Yusuf

*realizes he gave more info on Collins than Fenton*:embarrass

 

[Daffodil]

i really dnt see the point in discussing the bible because even christians and catholics and protestants etc etc cant agree on it because theres like a new book every month. if u have an origional bible, aproved by jesus himself, then yea we got a debate!

if u ppl ever get a chance then listen to a bro called yusuf estes on his reversion story to islam from being a bible preacher.

 

[Grace Seeker]

i really dnt see the point in discussing the bible because even christians and catholics and protestants etc etc cant agree on it because theres like a new book every month.

If this is true, then please point me to the 11 new books that have come out or been "discovered" so far this year. If you cannot, then please refrain from unsubstantiated claims, even in the form of hypebole.

Or, if you prefer, you may withdraw your comment, as you don't see the point in discussing the bible but choose to do so anyway, presenting nothing but exaggerated claims and faulty information as if they were fact.

 

[Daffodil]

If this is true, then please point me to the 11 new books that have come out or been "discovered" so far this year. If you cannot, then please refrain from unsubstantiated claims, even in the form of hypebole.

Or, if you prefer, you may withdraw your comment, as you don't see the point in discussing the bible but choose to do so anyway, presenting nothing but exaggerated claims and faulty information as if they were fact.

u obviously took that personaly as u sound quite upset, islam forbids me to lie so why wud i make something up. yusuf estes is an ex minister and revert to islam n he sed so, and hes alot more knowledgeable then u so im gonna go with him on this one. not only that but other bible scholars have sed the same thing. its a big money making biz didnt u know? i thought it was common knowledge.

 

[Keltoi]

u obviously took that personaly as u sound quite upset, islam forbids me to lie so why wud i make something up. yusuf estes is an ex minister and revert to islam n he sed so, and hes alot more knowledgeable then u so im gonna go with him on this one. not only that but other bible scholars have sed the same thing. its a big money making because didnt u know? i thought it was common knowledge.

Bibles are printed, people buy them...is that what you mean by "big money making?" Also, could you give some evidence of all these supposedly "new" or different Bibles being printed? Yes, there are different versions of the Bible, King James, etc, etc. Is that what you are referring to?

 

[Daffodil]

im gonna point out the obvious and waste my time when priest/ministers/bible scholars etc etc have already discussed this issue.

 

[Keltoi]

im gonna point out the obvious and waste my time when priest/ministers/bible scholars etc etc have already discussed this issue.

In other words, you can't answer the question. Thanks

 

[Grace Seeker]

u obviously took that personaly as u sound quite upset, islam forbids me to lie so why wud i make something up. yusuf estes is an ex minister and revert to islam n he sed so, and hes alot more knowledgeable then u so im gonna go with him on this one. not only that but other bible scholars have sed the same thing. its a big money making biz didnt u know? i thought it was common knowledge.

Dear Daffodil,

You didn't direct anything to me personally before, so I didn't take it personally. Now here, in asserting that Yusuf Estes is a lot more knowledgable than I you have. That's fine. He may be more knowledgable than I. So, I am seeking to learn from your/his knowledge. You said "theres like a new book every month". If that is true, and we are 11 1/2 months into 2006, then there ought to be 11 new books this. I would like to know what they are.

If this is, as you have asserted "common knowledge", then it should not be too hard a thing to do. If you are unwilling/unable to do so, then it throws doubt on your credibility and the credibility of your source. As you are a Muslim and Islam forbids you to lie, then I am sure you believe your statement to be true. I don't. I think it was most likely hyperbole. Or perhaps, if you are not familiar witih it, you have used terminology to express one thing when you mean another. For instance: the Bible is not one book, but is composed of many books. Sometimes people think that there are other books that should be included besides the present 66 books. For instance some say that the deutero-canonical books of the apochrypha should be included, and they are published in Catholic editions of the bible. Some say that other books that as a group have been labeled the pseudopigraphia should have been included in the Bible. And very rarely, a new piece of ancient literature is "discovered" or made known to the general public, and then people in the general public think that this were books excluded from the Bible, though in truth they tend to be books that were just other writings of the day, and were never considered for inclusion. When you write, "there's a new book every month" this is what I think you are referring to as that is what it means to refer to a book when referencing the Bible. A book is a piece of independent literature that books part of the collection of books which compose the Bible. And I know that it simply isn't true that there is a new book every month, or even every year or every decade. Is someone is telling you that there is, then whether you wish to believe it or not is up to you, but I would think the person does not know whereof they speak.

Now, there are many new translations, versions, editions of the Bible published regularly. As Keltoi has suggested, maybe this is what you are refering to. I have no idea in how many new ways the Bible might be published in a year; however, if this is your meaning, then I would agree that your statement might be true. Of course these are not new books (the term you used which I challenged). They are new translations, new versions, new editions of existing publications. There really isn't anything new in the context of the way that either Al Habeshi, YusufNoor, or I were speaking of the Bible in this discussion.

 

[Daffodil]

In other words, you can't answer the question. Thanks

im not answering the questions because its already been answered by thousands of priests n ministers etc etc.

 

[Keltoi]

im not answering the questions because its already been answered by thousands of priests n ministers etc etc.

If this had "already been answered" by thousands of priests and ministers, it shouldn't be that hard to give some evidence of what you are trying to suggest.

 

[Grace Seeker]

im not answering the questions because its already been answered by thousands of priests n ministers etc etc.

Here is a question that has NOT been answered by thousands of priests, ministers, or anyone ever before. You are the first person this question has ever even been asked of in the entire world.


When you said

theres like a new book every month

What did you mean by "new book"? Did you mean that there is a new edition of the Bible published every month? Or did you mean that there is a discovery of a "new" book of ancient manuscript that some suggest would change one's understanding of the Bible if it were included?

I would like to know what you were referring to when you said "new book", but you have yet to answer the question, and no priest or minister, nor even Yusaf Estes can answer that question for us, only you can tell us what you actually meant when you wrote it.

 

[Malaikah]

Now, there are many new translations, versions, editions of the Bible published regularly. As Keltoi has suggested, maybe this is what you are refering to. I have no idea in how many new ways the Bible might be published in a year; however, if this is your meaning, then I would agree that your statement might be true. Of course these are not new books (the term you used which I challenged). They are new translations, new versions, new editions of existing publications. There really isn't anything new in the context of the way that either Al Habeshi, YusufNoor, or I were speaking of the Bible in this discussion.

Hi Grace seeker,

I listen to a debate yesterday that touched on this:

33. Is the Bible God's Word ?

A great debate between Sheikh Ahmed Deedat and Jimmy Swaggart and the topic was Is the Bible God's Word ?, it took place in U.S.A at the University of Louisiana, It's Worth seeing Don't miss it.

(VCD Quality/MPG) [952MB] http://www.archive.org/download/33_I...s_Word_VCD.mpg
(RealPlayer High Quality) [312MB] http://www.archive.org/download/33_I...ord_512KB.rmvb
(RealPlayer Medium Quality) [70MB] http://www.archive.org/download/33_I...ord_128KB.rmvb
(RealPlayer Low Quality) [37MB] http://www.archive.org/download/33_I...Word_64KB.rmvb

I think what daffodil said was meant to be an exaggeration and she didnt mean it literally but she might have so I'll leave it up to her to answer inshaallah.

Ahmed Deedat mentioned that the bible does have versions, like you have admitted, and some versions take some parts of the scriptures and leave out others. He mentions the king james version and how it was meant to be one of the best translations, but it isnt only a translation, it is a VERSION, which means there are different bibles, some versions of the bible leave things in and others leave them out.

Compared to the Quran, there are no versions, there is only one Quran, everything that is meant to be in it is there and there are not any questionable parts of it that are left out or not, it is just one. It has many translations but thats all they are, translations, not versions. Whereas the bible does ave questionable parts etc.

I know I didnt explain it properly, please what the debate to understand what I was trying to say, he explained it much better than I did. Although the debate could have been much better, it wasnt that good because of time limits.

 

[YusufNoor]

:salamext:

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Salaam Gene,

I’m going to try to see if I can answer some of your questions this weekend. (While trying to avoid a humongous answer, so bits at a time)

First off, I hope you and yours are well.

here we go:

Of course, that only carries weight with people who already believe that this verse is the inspired, inerrant Word of God. It becomes sort of a circular argument. I think the same can be said of proving the integrity of the Qu'ran by citing passages from the Qu'ran.

I will gladly admit to you that we no longer have the original autographs and that the oldest documents we presently have some variant readings. My personal view is that for the most part these are minor (very minor) variants that do NOT change the meaning of the text. The three most glariing exceptions to this that I can think of are the inclusion of the story of the woman caught in adultery (John 7:53-8:11), the doxological ending to Matthe 6:13 ("for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."), and the longer ending of Mark -- and they do not present a different message than the rest of the New Testament, so I do trust the overall message. Do you deny that there are also variant readings for the Qur'an?

Absolutely! There is one and one only Qur’an. PERIOD. END of statement. Translations vary, however I recommend that neophytes (like me kay: )only use translations with a lot of explanation.

I wrote this in another forum:



the Qur'an that brother Fi_Sibillilah recommended IS the one that our Imam recommends for non-Muslims.

it's done by a group of scholars and representsthe best "translation".

i'm a "revert" of 8 months an i normally recommend that caution be used with the Qur'an when not in Arabic. imho, Quraysh Arabic is WAY TOO sophisticated for ANY ONE translation to give you a complete sense of it's purpose. you will miss out on the many varieties of meaning as well as totally missing the "Beauty" of the Qur'an!

i'm currently reading The Message of the Quran : New 2004 Authorized Edition (Muhammad Asad) English and Arabic. while not as "correct" as the Sahih International Translation, it DOES give one a sense of the "Beauty" and "Wonder" and "Joy" of the Qur'an. Asad spent 6 years living with Bedouin tribes and offers a keen insight as to sentence structure and purpose of many words and Ayahs.

his work is WELL researched and footnoted and as the subtitle says, it is "Translated AND Explained".

there are things about which i don't like, as he uses G-d for Allah (SWT) and Apostle for Rasul, BUT, if you're familiar with the "Bible" it REALLY feels like the Third Testament! i doubt that was his intention, but it really does come off as a continuation (and correction ) of the older "Books".

there's alot of background and historical information as well as the viewpoints of early Muslim scholars.

the book also contains alot of beautiful calligraphy as well as the transliteration of the Arabic. you can actually learn Surah's Al Fatihah and Al Ikhlas from it!

i've given out Sahih International Translation and people were disappointed that it was paperback and small, this is HUGE and it weighs a ton! of course, it's way more expensive than Sahih International Translation, but it feels and looks like a "Holy" book, especially if you've seen "special edition" Bibles.

take a look at the photos of some of the pages:

http://islamicbookstore-com.stores.yahoo.net/b8257.html

then, believe it or not, you should read a third translation. yup, i'm not kidding. if you research the very first Surah, Al Fatihah, you'll be convinced of what i'm saying. i read just the note's Moulana Mohamed Ali's Al Fatihah and "my jaw hit the floor". the "Seven oft' repeated verses" ALONE could take thousands of pages to explain everything that they mean!

the 1st Qur'an i completed was The Meaning of The Holy Qur'an: Arabic/English with Commentary PB US Edition Full-size (A Y Ali Amana Edition), link:

http://islamicbookstore-com.stores.yahoo.net/b3924.html

it's NOT bad, but imho, the author was way too into shaekspear and philosophy, especially for a Muslim. there are however almost as many notes as there are Ayahs, so it's heavy on "info". others contend that there are alot of "mistakes" in it. BUT, you might be able to get a copy at your local bookstore.

just my opinions...

I’ll find a link to a “Tajweed” site to explain the “additions” questions.

Peace,

:wasalamex

Yusuf

 

[YusufNoor]

:salamext:

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Salaam Gene,

I’m going to try to see if I can answer some of your questions this weekend. (While trying to avoid a humongous answer, so bits at a time)

First off, I hope you and yours are well.


(Cont.: )

So what? You are telling me that your religion celebrates the creation of man and gives it higher priority than worshipping god? Now, I know you don't mean it, as you go on to clarify, but you see how easy it would be if I look at just one element of Islam to attack it. I ask you to look at Christianity the same way. If you seek only to attack it, you will never learn about it. That you perceive the Bible to teach that the Resurrection took place on a different day than the first day of the week -- which is Sunday -- is an utter mystery to me. It is as if you have either never seen, or completely ignored the passages about the resurrection that I just quoted above. And if you have, and you get something from them other than Sunday, then you are reading the passages differently than any Christian in all of our history.

I reached a saturation point long ago with where “Christianity” is at variance with their own “Christian Bible”. I’m just trying to bring some of those points across to you.

As for “That you perceive the Bible to teach that the Resurrection took place on a different day than the first day of the week”, I’m saying that according to those Bibles, it wasn’t. As a Muslim, I reject the resurrection.

I AM sorry that my view DO come across as attacks sometimes, my English skills aren’t great so my emphatics can be a little strong. But I’m attacking erroneous positions that aren’t supported by the source of those who hold the views. I’m not attacking the people personally.

“You are telling me that your religion celebrates the creation of man and gives it higher priority than worshipping god?” by no means. Islam is to nothing other than exactly what Jibreel(as) revealed from Allah(SWT) to the Messenger(pbuh) and the Sunnah of the Prophet Mohammed(pbuh). Nothing more, nothing less. And as that is give complete priority to worshipping Allah(SWT)!

and "you are reading the passages differently than any Christian in all of our history"

as you'll come to see, i read most things differently!

Peace

:wasalamex


Yusuf

 

[YusufNoor]

:salamext:

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Salaam Gene,

(cont.)

If 85-90% of all Muslims share the same belief, then 10-15% do not. Are they still truly Muslim. How can you be a Muslim and not share the same beliefs of other Muslims? This is a great mystery.

My bad, I mean same SECT! I.e., SUNNI!

But, “How can you be a Muslim and not share the same beliefs of other Muslims? This is a great mystery.” That ‘s almost funny coming from a Christian! Unless you are NOW saying that ALL Christians MUST have the EXACT SAME beliefs! If so, I will gladly work with you to see if we could accomplish this!

So you have "corrupted" your own holy book by adding to it? Now, again, I don't really think of the vowel points as corrupting, but it is such small things that you see as casting doubt on the New Testament. In truth, I don't think it is those things at all that lead you to doubt it.

Eeks, me!!?? I have done no such thing!

Here’s a history from:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/compilationbrief.html


Brief History of Compilation of the Qur'an
Adapted from an article in Perspectives, Vol 3, No. 4, Aug/Sept 1997

During the life of the Prophet (saas) (570-632 CE)
· The Prophet (saas) used to recite the Qur'an before angel Jibreel (Gabriel) once every Ramadan, but he recited it twice (in the same order we have today) in the last Ramadan before his death. Jibreel also taught the Prophet (saas) the seven modes of recitation.

· Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him.

· The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit.

· Some of the companions wrote the Qur'an for their own use.

· Several hundred companions memorized the Qur'an by heart.

During the caliphate of Abu Bakr (632-634 CE)

· Umar Ibn Al-Khattab urged Abu Bakr to preserve and compile the Qur'an. This was prompted after the battle of Yamamah, where heavy casualties were suffered among the reciters who memorized the Qur'an.

· Abu Bakr entrusted Zayed Ibn Thabit with the task of collecting the Qur'an. Zayed had been present during the last recitation of the Qur'an by the Prophet to Angel Jibreel (Gabriel).

· Zayed, with the help of the companions who memorized and wrote verses of the Qur'an, accomplished the task and handed Abu Bakr the first authenticated copy of the Qur'an. The copy was kept in the residence of Hafsah, daughter of Umar and wife of the Prophet.

During the caliphate of Uthman (644-656 CE)

· Uthman ordered Zayed Ibn Thabit, Abdullah Ibn Al Zubayr, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, and Abdur-Rahman Ibn Harith Ibn Hisham to make perfect copies of the authenticated copy kept with Hafsa. This was due to the rapid expansion of the Islamic state and concern about differences in recitation.

· Copies were sent to various places in the Muslim world. The original copy was returned to Hafsa, and a copy was kept in Madinah.
Three stages of dotting and diacritization

· Dots were put as syntactical marks by Abu Al-Aswad Al Doaly, during the time of Mu'awiya Ibn Abi Sufian (661-680 CE).

· The letters were marked with different dotting by Nasr Ibn Asem and Hayy ibn Ya'amor, during the time of Abd Al-Malek Ibn Marawan (685-705 CE).

· A complete system of diacritical marks (damma, fataha, kasra) was invented by Al Khaleel Ibn Ahmad Al Faraheedy (d. 786 CE).
Sponsored by the MSA.

I think you doubt it because you are taught by the Qur'an to doubt it, and then you look for things to back up that belief. Well, it works the other way too.

As I try to point out, ad naseum, that is simply false. I began to believe in the falseness of Catholicism while attending Catechism, it just doesn’t jive with the 10 Commandments. Around 1980, I met with a Jehovah Witness. Then and there began my thirst and quest for finding out the “truth” about “Christianity. I was not at any time a Jehovah Witness, but I had great admiration for the gentleman I met and did study scripture with him for some time. It was one of the main reasons that my wife left me, which should indicate how serious I felt in the matter. Both before and after that time, I was a viewer of Herbert W. Armstrong, but really began an in depth study of his “teachings” around 1988 when my oldest son was nearly killed for the 3rd time. Since THAT time, I have held my beliefs on matters of the Sabbath and any other “Sunday” form of worship. The Christmas and Easter go back to the JW study days.

At NO TIME prior to the weeks before my “reversion” did I EVER even CONTEMPLATE that Islam was the true religion. My reversion was in April of, are you ready, 2006! I hadn’t even completed my first reading of the Qur’an until just prior to Ramadan this year.

That the Qur'an teaches that certain things the Bible says happened did not happen, are proof to me that the Qur'an is not a divine book from God, but a human invention filled with errors. Sorry, to say it so strongly. But to deny the divinity of Christ as the Qur'an does is to promote error, not truth.

I believe a review of Christianity will suffice to show that statement to be in error.

To deny the crucifixion and say that God fooled the people, is to make God in to a deceiver, and God is not a deceiver, thus I see the Qur'an as promoting falsehood once again.

I absolutely agree 100% with the statement "God is not a deceiver", but disagree with your conclusion. I’m sure we can find evidence that the Roman Catholic Church did all they could to destroy and writings that might disprove the crucifixion. I will admit, however, that my current belief in that regard is based on Islam!

Just trying to be honest!

That took longer than I thought it would.

Peace,

:wasalamex

Yusuf

 

[YusufNoor]

:salamext:
Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Salaam Gene,

(cont.)

My apologies that this is taking so long, I’m working with one eye and poor health.

The tradition view is that all of the Bible, in the original autographs, is the inspired, inerrant Word of God. This verse is often cited as proof:
Quote:
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Inerrant Word of God, I believe THAT is what we should try to find and prove.

The Qur'an set forths laws to keep. Check this, "Yes". Check this, "No". Life is a test. At the end you get your grade. Score well enough and you're in. Christianity is different in that doesn't have a checklist like either Judaism or Islam. It has guiding principles. They are more generically stated, and each individual has to work out what Loving God and Loving Neighbor look like in their particular life. But the guidelines are definitely present and all are held accountable to them; it is definitely not an "anything goes" type of faith.

Was it? How would people know if they were wrong? If not "anything goes", then WHAT goes? Wouldn’t it be fair, just and reasonable for the all Powerful, All Knowing G-d of Creation to explain it to us, rather than leave it sort of “up in the air?”

Shouldn’t they be HIS guidelines that we follow if we are to worship and obey HIM? Do we want to substitute the "things of men" for the "things of God"? Should we not fear that completely? So should we not try to prohibit ourselves from doing such a thing?

If you've never heard it distilled, allow me to share it with you here in Jesus' own words: "Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins'." (Matthew 26:27-28)

You know, I’ve heard Christians say it, I see it is currently in the Bible, but in all honesty I have never understood it. To me, folks that say it or believe kind of sound like the pot smoking hippies of the 60’s. So I must assume that it wasn’t originally there or something was really lost in the translation. I DO think that Jesus/Isa(AS) did some kind of Passover meal with his disciples and that, as he was foretelling the destruction of the Temple, that must of course be a new way to celebrate PASSOVER, NOT Easter!

Jesus said that the New Covenant was one made in his blood for the forgiveness of sins. That is the whole point of the Cross. Reject it, and of course you are rejecting the Covenant that Jesus came to establish.

Again, I guess I DO reject that! I don’t think that was what he taught, AND I don’t think as a Messenger of Allah(SWT) that he had the ability, OR permission to say anything that is in opposition to HIM. Nor do I think that would be in agreement with any Abrahamic tradition.

Again, in Jesus' own words, this time in a revelation received by his disciple John, many years after Jesus resurrection and ascension to heaven, Jesus said: "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him..." (Revelation 3:20a)

Not really sure how to interpret that either…

Is Jesus knocking on your heart's door?

*Sniffs around for pungent aroma*

Ya, I don’t think so! As a matter of fact, I don’t understand the concept of “being saved”. It’s too transparent, like some kind of “get out of jail free card”. I figure, no matter what I do, I’m going to hell. That’s it, period, and end of statement…

I can pray for Jannah. I can do everything Islam says I’m supposed to do. But in the end, Allah(SWT) will probably dub me a hypocrite or arrogant and I’m doomed.

The ONLY way I’m getting in is by the mercy of Allah(SW), Al Rahman Ir Raheem. The ONLY way!

At my church we worship on both Saturday and Sunday. I have been at others that worshipped on Wednesday or Thursday. There is no day that is not a good day to worship God. We worship him in corporate services, and we worship him in private personal ways as well.

Again, my belief is that the RCC purposefully and with full knowledge and intent corrupted true Sabbath worship.

Peace,

:wasalamex

Yusuf

 

[Grace Seeker]

:salamext:

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Salaam Gene,

(cont.)




My bad, I mean same SECT! I.e., SUNNI!

But, “How can you be a Muslim and not share the same beliefs of other Muslims? This is a great mystery.” That ‘s almost funny coming from a Christian! Unless you are NOW saying that ALL Christians MUST have the EXACT SAME beliefs! If so, I will gladly work with you to see if we could accomplish this!



Eeks, me!!?? I have done no such thing!

Here’s a history from:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/compilationbrief.html


Brief History of Compilation of the Qur'an
Adapted from an article in Perspectives, Vol 3, No. 4, Aug/Sept 1997

During the life of the Prophet (saas) (570-632 CE)
· The Prophet (saas) used to recite the Qur'an before angel Jibreel (Gabriel) once every Ramadan, but he recited it twice (in the same order we have today) in the last Ramadan before his death. Jibreel also taught the Prophet (saas) the seven modes of recitation.

· Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him.

· The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit.

· Some of the companions wrote the Qur'an for their own use.

· Several hundred companions memorized the Qur'an by heart.

During the caliphate of Abu Bakr (632-634 CE)

· Umar Ibn Al-Khattab urged Abu Bakr to preserve and compile the Qur'an. This was prompted after the battle of Yamamah, where heavy casualties were suffered among the reciters who memorized the Qur'an.

· Abu Bakr entrusted Zayed Ibn Thabit with the task of collecting the Qur'an. Zayed had been present during the last recitation of the Qur'an by the Prophet to Angel Jibreel (Gabriel).

· Zayed, with the help of the companions who memorized and wrote verses of the Qur'an, accomplished the task and handed Abu Bakr the first authenticated copy of the Qur'an. The copy was kept in the residence of Hafsah, daughter of Umar and wife of the Prophet.

During the caliphate of Uthman (644-656 CE)

· Uthman ordered Zayed Ibn Thabit, Abdullah Ibn Al Zubayr, Saeed Ibn Al-Aas, and Abdur-Rahman Ibn Harith Ibn Hisham to make perfect copies of the authenticated copy kept with Hafsa. This was due to the rapid expansion of the Islamic state and concern about differences in recitation.

· Copies were sent to various places in the Muslim world. The original copy was returned to Hafsa, and a copy was kept in Madinah.
Three stages of dotting and diacritization

· Dots were put as syntactical marks by Abu Al-Aswad Al Doaly, during the time of Mu'awiya Ibn Abi Sufian (661-680 CE).

· The letters were marked with different dotting by Nasr Ibn Asem and Hayy ibn Ya'amor, during the time of Abd Al-Malek Ibn Marawan (685-705 CE).

· A complete system of diacritical marks (damma, fataha, kasra) was invented by Al Khaleel Ibn Ahmad Al Faraheedy (d. 786 CE).
Sponsored by the MSA.




As I try to point out, ad naseum, that is simply false. I began to believe in the falseness of Catholicism while attending Catechism, it just doesn’t jive with the 10 Commandments. Around 1980, I met with a Jehovah Witness. Then and there began my thirst and quest for finding out the “truth” about “Christianity. I was not at any time a Jehovah Witness, but I had great admiration for the gentleman I met and did study scripture with him for some time. It was one of the main reasons that my wife left me, which should indicate how serious I felt in the matter. Both before and after that time, I was a viewer of Herbert W. Armstrong, but really began an in depth study of his “teachings” around 1988 when my oldest son was nearly killed for the 3rd time. Since THAT time, I have held my beliefs on matters of the Sabbath and any other “Sunday” form of worship. The Christmas and Easter go back to the JW study days.

At NO TIME prior to the weeks before my “reversion” did I EVER even CONTEMPLATE that Islam was the true religion. My reversion was in April of, are you ready, 2006! I hadn’t even completed my first reading of the Qur’an until just prior to Ramadan this year.




I believe a review of Christianity will suffice to show that statement to be in error.




I absolutely agree 100% with the statement "God is not a deceiver", but disagree with your conclusion. I’m sure we can find evidence that the Roman Catholic Church did all they could to destroy and writings that might disprove the crucifixion. I will admit, however, that my current belief in that regard is based on Islam!

Just trying to be honest!

That took longer than I thought it would.

Peace,

:wasalamex

Yusuf

I don't know if you will quite understand this, but as I read your faith journey, I mourn that the faith you knew as a Catholic Christian did not speak to your spirit in a way in which you would mature in it. And though I am not a Catholic, that you left it saddens me. Yet, as I read how you journeyed into and through the teachings of the Jehovah's Witness and Herbert Armstrong to arrive today within the community of Islam, I am glad for where you have landed.

Within your Ummah you will at least be pointed to the one true God, and worship him. I trust you will grow in faith and knowledge of him. While Christianity and Islam will always disagree on a number of key beliefs, chief among them having to do with the personhood and divine nature of Jesus, they need not be so antithetical to one another that we do not recognize each other as belonging to the same family of God -- if not as brothers, then at least as cousins.

I pray that you will find not only knowledge about God, but have a personal one-on-one encounter with the living God. May God be gracious, and make himself known to you in his word to enrich your mind with the knowledge of him, and by his spirit to strengthen your own spirit through his holy presence.

 

[Grace Seeker]

The ONLY way I’m getting in is by the mercy of Allah(SW), Al Rahman Ir Raheem. The ONLY way!



Peace,

:wasalamex

Yusuf

:salamext:
Assalamu 'alaykum,

On this we absolutely agree with one another. You almost sound like the Apostle Paul; imagine that!!

Peace,
Gene