the message of prophets in christianity

[YusufNoor]

Why would they do that? That is my question.

:salamext:

Salaam,

i think i'm changing my answer. :heated:

i believe that the reason for certain changes was to "invent" what is commonly referred to as "the Lord's Day". in other words, just as the northern tribes of Israel became to some extent "sun" worshippers, so has the majority of Christians.

the few subtle changes evident in what is now called the New Testament, were done so that people would believe that Sunday is the proper day for them to "go to church", when in fact, it is an invention. (cuz it didn't exist)

but for a Jew or Early Chrisitan, that Sabbath could only have been from sunset Friday until sunset Saturday. (Evening and then morning is how the days were reckoned).

:wasalamex

Yusuf

 

[Grace Seeker]

[/B]

posted by Grace Seeker
Nicea merely kept the party line of orthodox Christianity which had been taguht over the previous 200+ years.

the council of Nicea was in 325, ALMOST THREE HUNDRED YEARS after the Prophet Jesus/Isa(as)!

why do you only want to reckon on 200??

are you admitting that during the FIRST HUNDRED YEARS there was SUBSTANTIAL CHANGE???? :happy:

Well, I got lazy with my math and only felt like working in centuries. 325-300=25, and that would have been before the death of Christ. So, I just used the next increment of time. I'll revise my remarks to 292 years (plus or minus a few to adjust for the uncertainty of the actual year of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection).

 

[Grace Seeker]

:salamext:

Salaam,

i think i'm changing my answer. :heated:

i believe that the reason for certain changes was to "invent" what is commonly referred to as "the Lord's Day". in other words, just as the northern tribes of Israel became to some extent "sun" worshippers, so has the majority of Christians.

the few subtle changes evident in what is now called the New Testament, were done so that people would believe that Sunday is the proper day for them to "go to church", when in fact, it is an invention. (cuz it didn't exist)

but for a Jew or Early Chrisitan, that Sabbath could only have been from sunset Friday until sunset Saturday. (Evening and then morning is how the days were reckoned).

:wasalamex

Yusuf

I think you're still missing Keltoi's question.

We all agree that the church eventually switched from worshipping on Saturday to Sunday. The reason that I have believed for all of these years is that they did it as a commeroration of the Lord's resurrection. You say that this is not the reason. Then, pray tell, what is? Why "invent" another day? What value would there be in that?

And for that matter, if Islam teaches the same 6 days of creation and day of rest that is in Gensis, and if you believe the Jews were correct in keeping the Sabbath on Saturday. Then, also pray tell, why do Muslims worship on Friday instead of Saturday? Or is it always after sundown, so it would actually still be on the Sabbath?

OK. Sorry, two questions. But the second one should be fairly easy.:happy:

 

[YusufNoor]

:salamext:


Greetings of Peace Brother Grace Seeker,

I'll revise my remarks to 292 years

OK, so we'll assume then that you believe that EVERYTHING in the NT is inspired word and there are no mistakes or changes. i lack a good study Bible that shows when the "Gospels & Acts were written", so i might use the site that Keltoi posted. i'll look around the net also.

We all agree that the church eventually switched from worshipping on Saturday to Sunday. The reason that I have believed for all of these years is that they did it as a commeroration of the Lord's resurrection. You say that this is not the reason. Then, pray tell, what is? Why "invent" another day? What value would there be in that?

well, according to your Bible, the resurrection COULD NOT have taken place on Sunday. so, why then would Sunday become the day of worship? good question. one answer is that Jesus was sent to the "Lost Sheep of Israel"; there is evidence that most of the "Christian nations of the west" are, in fact, those lost sheep. Sunday worship was installed after the 12/13 tribes split up, and is simply contunued. the "value" could only be that Shaytan did all he could to lead people astray...(that's one possibillity)

And for that matter, if Islam teaches the same 6 days of creation and day of rest that is in Gensis, and if you believe the Jews were correct in keeping the Sabbath on Saturday. Then, also pray tell, why do Muslims worship on Friday instead of Saturday? Or is it always after sundown, so it would actually still be on the Sabbath?

Islam, while a new covenant, is simply a return to the religion of Abraham. however, as a New Covenant, all that is entailed in said Covenant is contained in the Qur'an and in authentic Ahadith. in those we are commanded to have a special Friday prayer, Jumu'ah. the reason, iirc, is to celebrate the creation of man.

2 things, the first: Our, Islamic Covenant, is spelled out in depth, to the point where 85-90% of ALL Muslims share the same belief. Our Holy Book, the Qur'an, is guaranteed, by Allah(SWT), to be free of corrutption. there might be a hand full of places where "vowel points" may be disputed, but those weren't in the Qur'an to start with.

this is VERY DIFFERENT from Christianity where it seems like "anything goes" as there is no remaining "book" that spells out exactly what the "New Covenant" entails.

the second. AT FIRST GLANCE, it might seem as though Islam has no Sabbath. this was actually one of my biggest concerns with Islam.

one could ask, does not Islam put aside a single day to "worship" the Creator of All Things?? WAY EASIER to answer than i originally thought, and the answer is no. why? because Islam is a religion that demands the Worship of the Creator of All Things 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. our worship of Allah(SWT) must be a part of everything that we do. there is no time when the worship of Allah(SWT) is put aside for other things. all of our acts of living must be acts of worship. from arising out of bed, to eating, drinking. socializing and working do as commanded by Allah(SWT) must be the foremost thought in our mind. Jesus regularly critisized the people of Judea for standing on princible and ceremony rather that living up the spirit of the law. as i would see it, imho, Jesus' "spirit of the Law" is something that Muslims try to follow at all times, so MAYBE one could say "in Islam EVERDAY is the Sabbath!"

think of it this way: if you are aware of a time or a place that Allah(SWT) cannot be at or see, then there you may do whatever you like!

but as Allah(SWT) is closer to us than our own jugular veins, there is not a thing we do nor a thought we posses that Allah(SWT) isn't aware of...

Peace,

:wasalamex

yusuf

 

[Grace Seeker]

:salamext:


Greetings of Peace Brother Grace Seeker,

Thank-you. And peace to you as well.

Ok, so we'll assume then that you believe that EVERYTHING in the NT is inspired word and there are no mistakes or changes. i lack a good study Bible that shows when the "Gospels & Acts were written", so i might use the site that Keltoi posted. i'll look around the net also.

The traditon view is that all of the Bible, in the original autographs, is the inspired, inerrant Word of God. This verse is often cited as proof:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Of course, that only carries weight with people who already believe that this verse is the inspired, inerrant Word of God. It becomes sort of a circular argument. I think the same can be said of proving the integrity of the Qu'ran by citing passages from the Qu'ran.

I will gladly admit to you that we no longer have the original autographs and that the oldest documents we presently have some variant readings. My personal view is that for the most part these are minor (very minor) variants that do NOT change the meaning of the text. The three most glariing exceptions to this that I can think of are the inclusion of the story of the woman caught in adultery (John 7:53-8:11), the doxological ending to Matthe 6:13 ("for thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."), and the longer ending of Mark -- and they do not present a different message than the rest of the New Testament, so I do trust the overall message. Do you deny that there are also variant readings for the Qur'an?

well, according to your Bible, the resurrection COULD NOT have taken place on Sunday. so, why then would Sunday become the day of worship? good question. one answer is that Jesus was sent to the "Lost Sheep of Israel"; there is evidence that most of the "Christian nations of the west" are, in fact, those lost sheep. Sunday worship was installed after the 12/13 tribes split up, and is simply contunued. the "value" could only be that Shaytan did all he could to lead people astray...(that's one possibillity)

This is at least the second time you have written that "the resurrection COULD NOT have taken palce on Sunday" and claim to base that on the Bible. I don't understand why you would say this. I could understand why you might have tried to argue a different day for the crucifixion than Friday (though I find those arguments weak), but I have never heard anyone suggest that the resurrection was not on Sunday. Here is Biblical testimony that it would have been on Sunday.

Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. (John 20:1)

On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them (John 20:19)

On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. (Luke 24:1-3)


When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb and they asked each other, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?" But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. (Mark 16:1-4)


But perhaps putting it the most clearly is the Gospel of Matthew:
After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men. The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me." (Matthew 28:1-10)

Islam, while a new covenant, is simply a return to the religion of Abraham. however, as a New Covenant, all that is entailed in said Covenant is contained in the Qur'an and in authentic Ahadith. in those we are commanded to have a special Friday prayer, Jumu'ah. the reason, iirc, is to celebrate the creation of man.

So what? You are telling me that your religion celebrates the creation of man and gives it higher priority than worshipping god? Now, I know you don't mean it, as you go on to clarify, but you see how easy it would be if I look at just one element of Islam to attack it. I ask you to look at Christianity the same way. If you seek only to attack it, you will never learn about it. That you perceive the Bible to teach that the Resurrection took place on a different day than the first day of the week -- which is Sunday -- is an utter mystery to me. It is as if you have either never seen, or completey ignored the passages about the resurrection that I just quoted above. And if you have, and you get something from them other than Sunday, then you are reading the passages differently than any Christian in all of our history.

2 things, the first: Our, Islamic Covenant, is spelled out in depth, to the point where 85-90% of ALL Muslims share the same belief. Our Holy Book, the Qur'an, is guaranteed, by Allah(SWT), to be free of corrutption. there might be a hand full of places where "vowel points" may be disputed, but those weren't in the Qur'an to start with.

So you have "corrupted" your own holy book by adding to it? Now, again, I don't really think of the vowel points as corrupting, but it is such small things that you see as casting doubt on the New Testament. In truth, I don't think it is those things at all that lead you to doubt it. I think you doubt it because you are taught by the Qur'an to doubt it, and then you look for things to back up that belief. Well, it works the other way too. That the Qur'an teaches that certain things the Bible says happened did not happen, are proof to me that the Qur'an is not a divine book from God, but a human invention filled with errors. Sorry, to say it so strongly. But to deny the divinity of Christ as the Qur'an does is to promote error, not truth. To deny the crucifixion and say that God fooled the people, is to make God in to a deciever, and God is not a deceiver, thus I see the Qur'an as promoting falsehood once again.

If 85-90% of all Muslims share the same belief, then 10-15% do not. Are they still truly Muslim. How can you be a Muslim and not share the same beliefs of other Muslims? This is a great mystery.

this is VERY DIFFERENT from Christianity where it seems like "anything goes" as there is no remaining "book" that spells out exactly what the "New Covenant" entails.

The Qur'an set forths laws to keep. Check this, "Yes". Check this, "No". Life is a test. At the end you get your grade. Score well enough and you're in. Christianity is different in that doesn't have a checklist like either Judaism or Islam. It has guiding princilples. They are more generically stated, and each individual has to work out what Loving God and Loving Neighbor look like in their particular life. But the guidelines are definitely present and all are held accountable to them; it is definitely not an "anything goes" type of faith. If you've never heard it distilled, allow me to share it with you here in Jesus' own words: "Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins'." (Matthew 26:27-28)


Jesus said that the New Covenant was one made in his blood for the forgiveness of sins, that is the whole point of the Cross. Reject it, and of course you are rejecting the Covenant that Jesus came to establish.

So the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) tell us about this person Jesus, the Christ of God, who came to establish this covenant, and describe how he did it through his death and resurrection. The rest of the New Testament is not the Injil, the rest is a the story of how this New Covenant was fleshed out in the life of the early church. One of those who did much of that was Paul, so I turn to his writings (and my own commentary) to explain how this action of Jesus on the cross becomes appropriated into our lives:

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

We all have sin in our hearts. We all were born with sin. We were born under the power of sin's control.

- Admit that you are a sinner.


Romans 6:23a "...The wages of sin is death..."

Sin has an ending. It results in death. We all face physical death, which is a result of sin. But a worse death is spiritual death that alienates us from God, and will last for all eternity. The Bible teaches that there is a place called the Lake of Fire where lost people will be in torment forever. It is the place where people who are spiritually dead will remain.

- Understand that you deserve death for your sin.


Romans 6:23b "...But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Salvation is a free gift from God to you! You can't earn this gift, but you must reach out and receive it.

- Ask God to forgive you and save you.


Romans 5:8, "God demonstrates His own love for us, in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us!"

When Jesus died on the cross He paid sin's penalty. He paid the price for all sin, and when He took all the sins of the world on Himself on the cross, He bought us out of slavery to sin and death! The only condition is that we believe in Him and what He has done for us, understanding that we are now joined with Him, and that He is our life. He did all this because He loved us and gave Himself for us!

- Give your life to God... His love poured out in Jesus on the cross is your only hope to have forgiveness and change. His love bought you out of being a slave to sin. His love is what saves you -- not religion, nor church membership, nor even doing the "right" thing. God loves you; it is his love, his mercy, his grace that saves you.


Romans 10:13 "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved!"

- Call out to God in the name of Jesus!


Romans 10:9,10 "...If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

- If you know that God is knocking on your heart's door, ask Him to come into your heart.

Again, in Jesus' own words, this time in a revelation received by his disciple John, many years after Jesus resurrection and ascencion to heaven, Jesus said: "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him..." (Revelation 3:20a)

- Is Jesus knocking on your heart's door?

the second. AT FIRST GLANCE, it might seem as though Islam has no Sabbath. this was actually one of my biggest concerns with Islam.

one could ask, does not Islam put aside a single day to "worship" the Creator of All Things?? WAY EASIER to answer than i originally thought, and the answer is no. why? because Islam is a religion that demands the Worship of the Creator of All Things 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. our worship of Allah(SWT) must be a part of everything that we do. there is no time when the worship of Allah(SWT) is put aside for other things. all of our acts of living must be acts of worship. from arising out of bed, to eating, drinking. socializing and working do as commanded by Allah(SWT) must be the foremost thought in our mind. Jesus regularly critisized the people of Judea for standing on princible and ceremony rather that living up the spirit of the law. as i would see it, imho, Jesus' "spirit of the Law" is something that Muslims try to follow at all times, so MAYBE one could say "in Islam EVERDAY is the Sabbath!"

think of it this way: if you are aware of a time or a place that Allah(SWT) cannot be at or see, then there you may do whatever you like!

but as Allah(SWT) is closer to us than our own jugular veins, there is not a thing we do nor a thought we posses that Allah(SWT) isn't aware of...

I have no problem with any of this. I would have worded it differently than you have, but we Christians basically think the same, please don't paint us as somehow different from you on this.

At my church we worship on both Saturday and Sunday. I have been at others that worshipped on Wednesday or Thursday. There is no day that is not a good day to worship God. We worship him in corporate services, and we worship him in private personal ways as well.

 

[glo]

Grace Seeker,

Your posts are such a blessing to me!
Just thought I'd stop by to tell you.

Peace to you.

 

[YusufNoor]

:salamext:

Peace Grace Seeker,

i'll go through your response when my eye clears up, but i try this one now:

This is at least the second time you have written that "the resurrection COULD NOT have taken palce on Sunday" and claim to base that on the Bible. I don't understand why you would say this. I could understand why you might have tried to argue a different day for the crucifixion than Friday (though I find those arguments weak), but I have never heard anyone suggest that the resurrection was not on Sunday. Here is Biblical testimony that it would have been on Sunday.

here's an online article:

Overview:
There is a near consensus among Christians that Jesus was executed on a Friday by the Roman Army, and resurrected on the following Sunday morning. However, there have always been alternate explanations for the timing of the various events associated with his execution and resurrection. One theory is that Jesus died on Wednesday afternoon, and was resurrected on Saturday evening. The empty tomb was discovered on Sunday morning, many hours after Jesus had left.



One Sabbath or two?:
An initial clue that might point to a Wednesday crucifixion is found in Matthew 28:1. This passage discusses Mary and "the other Mary" making a Sunday morning visit to the tomb where Jesus' body had been placed. This was after the weekly Sabbath which ran from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset. The following are translations according to the:

New English Bible: "The Sabbath was over,...."
New International Version: "After the Sabbath,..."
Jerusalem Bible: "After the Sabbath,..."
King James Version: "In the end of the Sabbath...came Mary Magdalene"
Living Bible: "Early on Sunday morning, Mary Magdalene..."
Philips Modern English: "When the Sabbath was over..."
Revised Standard Version: "Now after the sabbath...."
Today's English Version: "After the Sabbath,...

However, less commonly used translations of the Bible render Sabbath in plural form:

Young's Literal Translation: "And on the eve of the Sabbaths..." (Emphasis ours)

Alfred Marshall's Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, Green's Literal Translation, and Ferrar Fenton's Translation also render "Sabbaths" in plural form. To most Christians, the original Greek, Aramaic or Hebrew copies of the Bible are much more important than any English translation. The Greek in this passage also refers to Sabbaths (plural).

Many people do not realize that the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) discusses two different kinds of Sabbaths:

One type occurs on a weekly basis, from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset.
The other type -- called "high days" consist of the seven annual Sabbath days listed in Leviticus 23. These could occur on any day of the week.
Unless the plural form of Sabbath in Matthew 28:1 was an error by the author of Matthew, or an error subsequently made by a copyist, then the week in which Jesus was executed must have contained two Sabbaths, not one.

The presence of the second Sabbath -- a High Sabbath -- is confirmed in John 19:31:

King James Version: "The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."

It mentions that Jesus' body had to be quickly removed from the cross before sundown, to avoid polluting the land. This is based on Deuteronomy 21:22-23:

"And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled...."

A second confirmation is found in Mark 16 and Luke 23:

Mark 16:1: And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
Luke 23:55-56: And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid. And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

So, after the first Sabbath -- the high day -- had passed, three of Jesus' female followers bought spices in order to care for Jesus' body. Then they prepared the spices, and later rested on the second Sabbath day, Saturday.



How many days were between Jesus' execution and resurrection?
A number of passages in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) mention that three days would pass between Jesus' death and resurrection. Yet traditional belief is that he died on Friday before sunset, and was resurrected on Sunday morning. That interval consists of only a few hours on Friday, Saturday which ran from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset, and part of Sunday morning -- a total of perhaps a day and a half, not three. This discrepancy is normally rationalized by counting each part of a day -- part of Friday and part of Sunday -- as a full day. But this conflicts with Matthew 12:39-40:

"But he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Emphasis ours)

If Jesus died on Friday afternoon before sunset then Friday counts as one day and one night. All day Saturday also counts as one day and one night. Sunday doesn't count because John 20:1 says:

"The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre."

That is, Mary came to the tomb while it was still night. So we end up with two days and two nights -- one day and one night short.



Possible explanations to the discrepancy:
Conservative Christians view the autograph -- original -- copies of the books in the Bible to be the Word of God. Its authors wrote text that is without error under God's inspiration. One approach to harmonize the conflicting passages described above would be to assume that Matthew 39:40 did not specify "three days and three nights." It actually referred to three "days" (or partial days), as in other biblical passages. The wording that we see in Matthew would then be the result of a copyist error.

Liberal Christians see no problem here. They interpret the Bible as a historical document, and not inerrant. They view the four gospels as written by individuals or groups who were not eyewitnesses to the events of Jesus' life. The authors relied on many oral traditions which varied from each other. When one compares passages from various gospels, one can anticipate errors and assume that they cannot be harmonized.

There is at least one more possibility: Jesus might have been crucified on a Wednesday afternoon, and resurrected on Saturday evening. The chronology would look something like this:
Tuesday: Jesus and his disciples ate an evening meal together, and was arrested.
Wednesday: This is the preparation day mentioned in John 19:31. i.e. the day before the high-day Sabbat. Jesus appears before Pilate, and is crucified; he dies about 2 PM in the afternoon, before sundown. His body is removed from the stake or cross and placed in the tomb.
Thursday: This is a high Sabbath day: the first day of Unleavened Bread, mentioned in Matthew 27:62.
Friday: Jesus' female followers purchased spices.
Saturday: This was a regular weekly Sabbath, different from the high Sabbath day on Thursday. All rested and did no work during the day. Jesus was resurrected sometime in the afternoon before sunset.
Sunday: Mary Magdalene (by herself according to the Gospel of John or with other women according to the synoptic gospels) went to the tomb and found it empty.

Adding up the days and nights:

Jesus died on Wednesday afternoon and is laid "in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40) at or just before sunset.
The first night and first day passes: Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset.
The second night and day passes: Thursday sunset to Friday sunset.
The third 12 hour night passes between Friday sunset and Saturday morning.
Part of the third 12 hour day passes on Saturday, and Jesus is resurrected before sunset.
The woman or women find the empty tomb very early on Sunday morning.

According to The Good News magazine:

"Several computer software programs exist that enable us to calculate when the Passover and God's other festivals fall in any given year. Those programs show that in A.D. 31, the year of these events, the Passover meal was eaten on Tuesday night and Wednesday sundown marked the beginning of the 'high day,' the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread."

This agrees well with the many theologians' estimate that Jesus was executed between the years 29 and 32 CE.

It is a neat theory, but has little chance of being accepted because of almost two millennia of church tradition supports a Good Friday execution and Easter Sunday resurrection. Also if Jesus actually was resurrected on Saturday afternoon, then the church's justification for moving the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday would collapse, and the 35,000 or so Christian faith groups whose prime day for religious services is Sunday would have to admit that the Seventh-day Adventists and other Sabbatarian groups were right after all.


Reference used:
"Jesus wasn't crucified on Friday -- or Resurrected on Sunday!," The Good News magazine , United Church of God, 2006-MAR-APR, Pages 13 to 15

iirc, that mag was an Armstrong pub.

but at any rate, now you've heard it once. i'll explain it more if need be.

peace,

:wasalamex

Yusuf

 

[Grace Seeker]

:salamext:

here's an online article:

Overview:
There is a near consensus among Christians that Jesus was executed on a Friday by the Roman Army, and resurrected on the following Sunday morning. However, there have always been alternate explanations for the timing of the various events associated with his execution and resurrection. One theory is that Jesus died on Wednesday afternoon, and was resurrected on Saturday evening. The empty tomb was discovered on Sunday morning, many hours after Jesus had left.

If you have an online article, I would appreciate a link to it. Then I can read it for myself. I can also check the organization's scholarship. This is important for several reasons, but I'll just give you one. Above in the material you presented you talk about Matthew 39:40 -- no such verse exists in the Bible. Was that your mistake or theirs? A simple typo or just really bad scholarship? I don't know. In this case you ultimately cite as your source that it comes from

Reference used:
"Jesus wasn't crucified on Friday -- or Resurrected on Sunday!," The Good News magazine , United Church of God, 2006-MAR-APR, Pages 13 to 15

iirc, that mag was an Armstrong pub.

This group is not one that is noted for high quality scholarship. Indeed, they have even more of an agenda than you presume to impose upon the rest of Christian history. Except that of course you have charged that perhaps it was Satan who was the motivating factor in these "changes" that are uncovered by groups which emerge in the 1800s and later. Groups that first developed their peculiarly divergent theologies, and then after the fact sought to "find" scholarship to back them up.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, that it would be historic Christianity, versus those you have chosen to listen to, that was driven by Satan. As the Mexican proverb says: A man is permitted to make a kite of his own pants.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Well, I tracked down the original article that the online reference referred to. Did you get that they said that Jesus' would have still been in the tomb all day on Saturday until sunset? Thus begins the next day on the Jewish calendar, i.e. Sunday. Whether Jesus was resurrected just after sunset or just before sunrise is irrelevant in terms of saying that Jesus was resurrected on Sunday.

As far as the practice of early Christians, they honored the sabbath by resting on Saturday, and honored Jesus by worshipping him on Sunday, what they called kyriake, which is translated "the Lord's day."

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death-whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master-how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead. (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians 9:1.)

You made one other comment above that I also want to very briefly respond to. You said:

Islam, while a new covenant, is simply a return to the religion of Abraham.

If you read Romans, chapter 4, you will see that Christianity also see itself as inheritors and in continuation of this Abrahamic covenant.

 

[snakelegs]

the second. AT FIRST GLANCE, it might seem as though Islam has no Sabbath. this was actually one of my biggest concerns with Islam.

one could ask, does not Islam put aside a single day to "worship" the Creator of All Things?? WAY EASIER to answer than i originally thought, and the answer is no. why? because Islam is a religion that demands the Worship of the Creator of All Things 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. our worship of Allah(SWT) must be a part of everything that we do. there is no time when the worship of Allah(SWT) is put aside for other things. all of our acts of living must be acts of worship. from arising out of bed, to eating, drinking. socializing and working do as commanded by Allah(SWT) must be the foremost thought in our mind. Jesus regularly critisized the people of Judea for standing on princible and ceremony rather that living up the spirit of the law. as i would see it, imho, Jesus' "spirit of the Law" is something that Muslims try to follow at all times, so MAYBE one could say "in Islam EVERDAY is the Sabbath!"

hi yusuf,
i have only skimmed this thread (which to me, seems like so many people picking nits) and this caught my eye. hope it hasn't been covered.
i don't know if any of the jewish members hang out here, but i think you misunderstand the jewish concept of the sabbath. i have some knowledge about judaism because i studied it when i was younger.
in judaism, worship of god is 24/7 too. it is similar to islam this way - awareness of god is constant. the sabbath doesn't mean that you get a day off from this at all. quite the opposite is the case.
on the sabbath you free yourself as much as possible from wordly cares in order to be able to concentrate on god alone. so while you worship god all thru the week, in every task you do in daily living - on the sabbath you can remove the distractions (work, handling money etc etc) and focus entirely on god. you are withdrawing from the worldly to focus on the spiritual.
i have also wondered why islam doesn't follow the sabbath, in this sense.

 

[Umar001]

Hi guys,

Theres many points I would like to tackle, maybe a new thread in particular for those.

I will ask, Grace Seeker, what is the context of the scripture of Timothy which you quoted. Please share that with us.

 

[YusufNoor]

If you have an online article, I would appreciate a link to it. Then I can read it for myself. I can also check the organization's scholarship. This is important for several reasons, but I'll just give you one. Above in the material you presented you talk about Matthew 39:40 -- no such verse exists in the Bible. Was that your mistake or theirs? A simple typo or just really bad scholarship? I don't know. In this case you ultimately cite as your source that it comes from



This group is not one that is noted for high quality scholarship. Indeed, they have even more of an agenda than you presume to impose upon the rest of Christian history. Except that of course you have charged that perhaps it was Satan who was the motivating factor in these "changes" that are uncovered by groups which emerge in the 1800s and later. Groups that first developed their peculiarly divergent theologies, and then after the fact sought to "find" scholarship to back them up.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, that it would be historic Christianity, versus those you have chosen to listen to, that was driven by Satan. As the Mexican proverb says: A man is permitted to make a kite of his own pants.

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem,

Salaam Grace Seeker,

Astaghfirullah, for my tardy reply. i suffer from heart & blood disease and sometimes it's hard to read and concentrate...

as for links, i'm hesitant to post them. some visitors here take issus with Islamic sources on thses topics, so i choose to use sources that aren't Islamic. that being the case, eventually, somewhere on the link, if Islam is discussed it would, of course, be negative. this IS an Islamic board and i AM a Muslim so i'm not real keen on being the one adding links to non-Islamic sources. i'll try to save them an PM them to you to save you some work.

i put the source instead of taking it out as i don't want to give the opinion that i am the author or something, as well as to make it a little easier for you to see.

i don't think scholarship is the issue here. if it were, i would have NO business contributing to the topic. we, at least i, will simply be pointing out what is contained in the "New Testament".

you seem a little disturbed by my usage of Shaytan as one who would deny the truth. that kind of puzzles me. let me put a few quotes from the NT here:

Matthew 16:23
Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Mark 8:33
But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Peter is commonly thought of a the first head of the church, am i right? so either Jesus, himself is saying that Peter is Satan, which i'm assuming we both will disagree with. OR when one substitutes the "things of men" for the "things of God", then we KNOW who the author is!

i'm in agreement with brother Al Habeshi that perhaps a new thread is warranted.

look for the topic "the sign of Jonah"...

in the meantime i will attempt to answer some of your other questions and thoughts in this thread as soon as i am able.

Peace,



Yusuf

 

[YusufNoor]

Well, I tracked down the original article that the online reference referred to. Did you get that they said that Jesus' would have still been in the tomb all day on Saturday until sunset? Thus begins the next day on the Jewish calendar, i.e. Sunday. Whether Jesus was resurrected just after sunset or just before sunrise is irrelevant in terms of saying that Jesus was resurrected on Sunday.

As far as the practice of early Christians, they honored the sabbath by resting on Saturday, and honored Jesus by worshipping him on Sunday, what they called kyriake, which is translated "the Lord's day."




You made one other comment above that I also want to very briefly respond to. You said: If you read Romans, chapter 4, you will see that Christianity also see itself as inheritors and in continuation of this Abrahamic covenant.

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Salaam Grace Seeker,

i believe that statement to be false.

Peace,



Yusuf

 

[Grace Seeker]

Hi guys,

Theres many points I would like to tackle, maybe a new thread in particular for those.

I will ask, Grace Seeker, what is the context of the scripture of Timothy which you quoted. Please share that with us.

The verse is from Paul's second letter to Timothy as he is giving instructions to his protege on how to carry on in Paul's stead as a leader in the early church. The entire chapter can be read here 2 Timothy 3.

 

[Grace Seeker]

you seem a little disturbed by my usage of Shaytan as one who would deny the truth. that kind of puzzles me. let me put a few quotes from the NT here:

Matthew 16:23
Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Mark 8:33
But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Peter is commonly thought of a the first head of the church, am i right? so either Jesus, himself is saying that Peter is Satan, which i'm assuming we both will disagree with. OR when one substitutes the "things of men" for the "things of God", then we KNOW who the author is!

Salaam Yusuf,

First, and most importantly, let me bid you good health. I have no major health problems, and sometimes I find it difficult to reply. May God grant you renewed health to be strong and well enough for all the tasks of your life.

If all you meant by saying that Satan might have misled the church was to say that IF the church is misled, then it might be Satan that has caused it to drift astray, then I over-reacted. I heard your above statements as an accusation that indeed Satan had done so. Pleae, forgive my overprotective nature.

As to my statement regarding the practices of early Christians in recognizing both the Sabbath and "the Lord's Day", I guess we have a difference of opinion.

From the book of Acts we can see that the early church was used to actually attending synagogue on the Sabbath.

From Perga they went on to Pisidian Antioch. On the Sabbath they entered the synagogue and sat down. After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the synagogue rulers sent word to them, saying, "Brothers, if you have a message of encouragement for the people, please speak." (Acts 13:14-15)

Yet, from this same book, we can see that they also met on the first day of the week, i.e. Sunday.

On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. (Acts 20:7)

On more than one occassion Paul deals with the question of just how much of the Jewish origins of the church to be kept by the Church. Though the Sabbath is not mentioned specifically in the passage, I believe that this is behind his thought in Romans 14:5 & 6a -- "5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord." The point, as Paul would go on to make later in this chapter, is that the actual day of worship or any other ritual, is not as important as giving one's self wholly to God. We should stop putting impediments in the way between people and God, and instead seek to build one another up in God.

You know, Yusuf, I appreciate that you have this attitude whenever you address me. You always have a kind greetings. I would like to return it in kind, but I do not speak Arabic. While I know it is a greeting between brothers, I do not know its meaning or how to respond to it appropriately. Could you educate me on this?

Thank-you.

Peace be upon you.

 

[Umar001]

The verse is from Paul's second letter to Timothy as he is giving instructions to his protege on how to carry on in Paul's stead as a leader in the early church. The entire chapter can be read here 2 Timothy 3.

Yes but the passage you used was to indicate what some quote as proof that the 'All scripture' is from God, I am asking what scripture was Paul referring to.

 

[YusufNoor]

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Salaam Gene,

i'm having a tougher time than i though i would. maybe heart attack #2 is nearby! :grumbling

i was holding back on the ONE spot that i could guarantee that the NT was changed until we hit some other points, but you posted:

Yet, from this same book, we can see that they also met on the first day of the week, i.e. Sunday.
Quote:
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight. (Acts 20:7)

THAT, IS a change! here's how it is in the Ferrar Fenton:

Acts 20:7 On the first of the Sabbaths, when we assembled to break bread, Paul, intending to leave on the following day, addressed them, and prolonged his speech until midnight.

the Sabbath was eventually changed to Sunday by the RCC. they didn't say "let's keep the Sabbath and "honor" Jesus by worshipping on sunday". they tried to perform a complete swap. We can use the website Keltoi posted to see when some of the changes were made. (of course, we can assume the site won't say "We did this for X or Y reason". we'll just be able to get an idea of when certain things were done).

don't forget, one of the motives for the inquisition was to eliminate Christians who were keeping the Jewish Sabbath.

i still would like to respond to your large post, but it's soo long...


Peace,


Yusuf

 

[Grace Seeker]

THAT, IS a change! here's how it is in the Ferrar Fenton:

Acts 20:7 On the first of the Sabbaths, when we assembled to break bread, Paul, intending to leave on the following day, addressed them, and prolonged his speech until midnight.

I'm absent any of my Bibles which would show alternate readings at the moment. I'll try to remember to check them later. However, I am not at all familiar with the Ferrar Fenton you mention. Can you fill me in?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Yes but the passage you used was to indicate what some quote as proof that the 'All scripture' is from God, I am asking what scripture was Paul referring to.

No, actually I wasn't using the text to prove that "All scripture is from God". I was merely illustrating that to use scripture to prove scripture is a circular argument.

I personally happen to think that Paul was referring to all the scripture that was available to Timothy at that time, namely the Old Testament. I concede it is a stretch when Christian use it to prove that the New Testament is from God, which is why I did not use it that way. (Nor do I even use it to prove that the Old Testament is, for then you would have to admit that Paul was speaking prophetically when he wrote that, and you are back to your circular argument.)

Of course, if we accept that Peter was an authority within the early church, then Paul's letters were considered synonymous with scripture:

Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:15 & 16)

Peter doesn't just say Scriptures, but "other" Scriptures, thus referring to Paul's letters as Scripture themselves.

Now, you can argue that this wasn't really the Apostle Peter, and throw up a whole host of other arguments. It eventually gets down not to what the scholars say, but what each of us, in our own heart, is willing to accept or not accept as an authoritative word from God. Maybe that's why we call it faith?

 

[Umar001]

Yes but the passage you used was to indicate what some quote as proof that the 'All scripture' is from God, I am asking what scripture was Paul referring to.

No, actually I wasn't using the text to prove that "All scripture is from God". I was merely illustrating that to use scripture to prove scripture is a circular argument.

I know that in the broader point you were showing that circular reasoning is what is done by some, I just wondered if you were of the people that 'often' cite the verse as proof.

The traditon view is that all of the Bible, in the original autographs, is the inspired, inerrant Word of God. This verse is often cited as proof:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Eesa.