The Qur'an never altered?

[soloqi]

So it is not chronological as believed by some.
It may make sense to other but I still cannot get my head around it.

 

[جوري]

That is actually one of the miracles of the Quran for those who reflect, that a verse can be revealed a good 12 or twenty years apart from another, belong to a particular surah and yet flow in syntax, poetry, meaning, lyricism, context and transcendence...
Prophet Mohammed neither had a computer nor a filing cabinet for it to be in the way it is to be placed as he was told and have it come out like this:


[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7Vpi_qZSGc[/MEDIA]

is the reason it is called the inimitable Quran ..

if you can't "wrap your head around it' then maybe you are not a Muslim?

all the best

 

[soloqi]

Its a shame i came to this forum to learn more about my deen but get branded all sorts of things,

what right do anyone have to say im not a muslim, unless I myself same i am, which I am not, as i have stated.

all this in an 'islamic forum'.

 

[جوري]

but you didn't come to learn, you came to assert and perhaps even threw fanaticism and paganism to describe both the religion and other Muslims in the process.. what would you like, that we turn a blind eyes to overt errors or that we handle you with kid gloves?

If you don't like the tenets of the religion then perhaps this religion isn't for you.. I'd rather deal with a non-Muslim than a deviant Muslim...
Islam is defined and is a done deal.. there is no room for re-interpretation!

all the best

 

[soloqi]

Gossamer skye - you have taught me much about religion, now i dont konw if you are muslim as well but you should really not get emotional about reading things that offend you and behaving like a reactionary by branding me a facist and pagan,

Maybe those are aspect of you psyche you have problems dealing with and projecting them onto other people like myself and branding them what you fear you are. I simply want to learn and gain a better understanding of things. Not have to deal with childish remarks, we should use our time better lets look at what we have in common.

 

[جوري]

Maybe indeed I am as you describe, but given that the majority of Muslim reply you received on board was similar and the only person who seemed in concordance with your beliefs was a Hindu, I am rather inclined to consider that the problem indeed lies with you?
Be that as it may, I suggest you spend less time psychoanalyzing me, and more time figuring out how you beg in the way of life you chose for your person?

all the best...

 

[Ali_008]

Brother, the Qur'an is the best book ever known to mankind. Its not like other books which have a start and an end. Even thats one of the exclusive characteristics of the Qur'an though without such order, the book is perfect. The first chapter talks about asking for guidance from Allah and even the last chapter talks about asking from Allah, but protection from the whispers of shaytaan. Like you mentioned the first verse revealed comes in chapter 96 and the last verses revealed come in chapter 5 i.e.

This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.
verse # 3

The Qur'an is the Miracle of Miracles. Its beauty is unparallel and is unique in its own ways because its not the human speech but the speech of the Creator, Al-Khaliq.

 

[soloqi]

Its sad to know that the majority of muslims are closed minded and simply repeat what the are told rather than seek wisdom. spending their time insulting people and being verbally hostile, Is this what has become of the deen.

I embraced islam a few years ago and forever being call a non muslims because of my views, what give you or any other the right.

 

[جوري]

Do you perceive the truth as hostility?.. the reaction you are dispensing with here is completely out of proportion to the replies given you.. in fact, between closed minded, fanatics, pagan roots etc. I'd say you are dispensing with insults faster than we can blink.

Your views aren't in concert with Islam.. what gives us the right to 'judge', well it is as simple as your views not being accepted by ahel a sunna wa'jama3a.. most new converts on board whether embraced islam a month ago or ten yrs ago also don't share your views either...

prior I have told you, you are welcome to believe as you desire but you can't be called a Muslim when following desire.. You are also always welcome to learn your true faith anew if that is what you truly seek...

this is the last I want to indulge this.. this topic is about the Quran.. not your feelings or our psychological pitfalls .. pls try to limit your queries or protests to the subject matter

all the best

 

[- Qatada -]

Asalaam alaikum soloqi


Allah's Messenger actually told the companions how the Qur'anic verses would be arranged after he recieved it.

So if there was one verse that came in Surah al Tawbah for example, the Prophet would tell them where that verse fitted in the surahs order, and the companions would recite it like that. This is well known.

Furthermore, the sequence or order of the Quran was arranged by the Prophet himself and was also well-known to the Companions.[5] Each Ramadan, the Prophet would repeat after the angel Gabriel (reciting) the entire Quran in its exact order as far as it had been revealed, while in the presence of a number of his Companions.[6] In the year of his death, he recited it twice.[7] Thereby, the order of verses in each chapter and the order of the chapters became reinforced in the memories of each of the Companions present.
As the Companions spread out to various provinces with different populations, they took their recitations with them in order to instruct others.[8] In this way, the same Quran became widely retained in the memories of many people across vast and diverse areas of land.


[5] Ahmad von Denffer, Ulum al-Quran, The Islamic Foundation, UK, 1983, p.41-42; Arthur Jeffery, Materials for the History of the Text of the Quran, Leiden: Brill, 1937, p.31.

[6] Saheeh Al-Bukhari Vol.6, Hadith No.519.

[7] Saheeh Al-Bukhari Vol.6, Hadith Nos.518 & 520.

[8] Ibn Hisham, Seerah al-Nabi, Cairo, n.d., Vol.1, p.199.
​

Read this for more info;
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/19/

 

[AntiKarateKid]

As much as i would like to believe the quran is divine teachings, i believe some has been removed, the quran was revelations,written down there and then by companions of the prophet or memorised , the quran was compiled after the prophets death by order of Abu Bakr, the first Caliph.
The question I would like to have answered is,the Prophet why did he not have this compiled himself, it makes sense to want to make sure this is done, why was it done after his death.


From an intellectual point of view i would like answers

How could you say this if you embraced Islam?

 

[convert]

How could you say this if you embraced Islam?

Shia.

 

[Ramadhan]

NO Muslim would ever say that Qur'an has been compromised or altered in any way.

 

[abdullah_001]

one of the miracles of the Quran.. aside from its role in everyday life, politcs/economics/social structure/inheritance/ divorce, marriage, guidance/stories of old and things to come etc is the language.. which is completely different than anything encountered that even the best poets couldn't come up with similar and have it compass what it needs, and differs from the hadith which are the sayings of the prophet..
hence i is considered the living miracle..

you can listen to this recitation and notice how every verse ends with the same ending as an example of its poetry..

Sister, forgive me for saying this but the Qur'an isn't poetry.

We know the incident with Umar bin al-Khattab (ra) when he was heading towards the Ka'bah and he overheard the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) reciting the Qur'an. He thought it could be the work of a poet (he was hiding at this point) while the Prophet (peace be upon him) was reciting from surah Haaqah, and the ayah he was reciting was "It is not the word of a poet, little is that you believe!" (41). Thereby Umar bin al-Khattab (ra) thought if it wasn't the work of a poet, it could be the word of a soothsayer and the Prophet (peace be upon him) was reciting the next ayah, " Nor is it the word of a soothsayer (or a foreteller), little is that you remember!" (42).

and also the incident when Al-Walid bin Mughira and others were plotting against of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). They accused the Prophet (peace be upon him) of many things one of which was that he (peace be upon him) is a poet and Mughira retorted saying we know poetry in all its forms and meters and this is not poetry.


There are 16 divisions in Arabic poetry based on the rhyme schemes and Qur'an doesn't fall into any of those categories hence why it's not poetry. Moreover, not only is Qur'an not poetry, it is neither a rhyming prose, nor is it a normal speech not is it a speech of soothsayers.

Subhan Allah, and Allah (swt) says in the Qur'an, "And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'ân) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Sûrah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allâh, if you are truthful. (23) But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers." (Surah Baqarah).

Subhan Allah, just two ayahs in the Qur'an with so much wisdom behind it, Subhan Allah. And the Qur'an has 6286 verses if I remember correctly, Subhan Allah. Every ayah of the Qur'an is a miracle, Subhan Allah.


Sorry sister, I don't mean to offend you in anyway but I just wanted to clear this up, forgive me again.

 

[جوري]

you didn't offend me-- Jazaka Allah khyran, perhaps I should look for a better choice of words, I didn't mean 'poetry' in the sense that you may have understood. Rather characterized by lyricism & rhyme..

 

[abdullah_001]

As much as i would like to believe the quran is divine teachings, i believe some has been removed, the quran was revelations,written down there and then by companions of the prophet or memorised , the quran was compiled after the prophets death by order of Abu Bakr, the first Caliph.
The question I would like to have answered is,the Prophet why did he not have this compiled himself, it makes sense to want to make sure this is done, why was it done after his death.


From an intellectual point of view i would like answers

It is because at the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Qur'an was memorized. As far as your question regarding Prophet (peace be upon him) not compiling the Qur'an himself, dear brother, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) could not read or write, how could he have compiled? And second, during the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as he(peace be upon him) would receive revelations the sahabi would record it.

And it was done after the Prophet (peace be upon him)s death because during the wars of apostasy while Abu Bakr (ra)'s was khalifah too many Sahabi who had memorized the Qur'an had been killed. This raised a concern that if the Sahabi who have memorized the Qur'an keep dying in such a way then the Qur'an may be lost which is why after consulting the other companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) Abu Bakr (ra) made the decision to compile Qur'an into a book.


“Verily, We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur’aan) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption)” (15:9).

Do you still think Qur'an isn't complete when Allah (swt) is protecting the Qur'an from being changed or altered?

 

[soloqi]

Many thanks, however i just need some more clarification take for example:
Sura 53:19-23:
[53:18] He saw great signs of his Lord.

[53:19] Compare this with the female idols Allaat and Al-`Uzzah.

[53:20] And Manaat, the third one.

[53:21] Do you have sons, while He has these as daughters?

Sura 53:19-23, centered specifically on the three goddesses worshiped by the pagans of Arabia called Allat, al-Uzza and Manat. Initially Muhammad (pbuh) praised these goddesses by confirming their existence as deities that intercede before Allah. This caused the pagans to bow in worship and also praise Muhammad (pbuh) for speaking highly of their idols. Needless to say, they were not at all pleased with Muhammad (pbuh) when he later claimed that his statements were not from God but from Satan who caused him to slip!

Should that be the case, (slip of tongue so to speak why then is it still present,

http://www.submission.org/suras/sura53.html

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Many thanks, however i just need some more clarification take for example:
Sura 53:19-23:
[53:18] He saw great signs of his Lord.

[53:19] Compare this with the female idols Allaat and Al-`Uzzah.

[53:20] And Manaat, the third one.

[53:21] Do you have sons, while He has these as daughters?

Sura 53:19-23, centered specifically on the three goddesses worshiped by the pagans of Arabia called Allat, al-Uzza and Manat. Initially Muhammad (pbuh) praised these goddesses by confirming their existence as deities that intercede before Allah. This caused the pagans to bow in worship and also praise Muhammad (pbuh) for speaking highly of their idols. Needless to say, they were not at all pleased with Muhammad (pbuh) when he later claimed that his statements were not from God but from Satan who caused him to slip!

Should that be the case, (slip of tongue so to speak why then is it still present,

http://www.submission.org/suras/sura53.html

Thankyou very very much for finally confirming that you are not Muslim. What you have just said is utter nonsense. Read the surah, even a deceitful missionary such as yourself can see.


Where in there does he say that those false gods can intercede? That surah is contrasting Muhammad's true vision to the false idols that the people have. Where is this BS about satan?

53:23] These are but names that you made up, you and your forefathers. GOD never authorized such a blasphemy. They follow conjecture, and personal desire, when the true guidance has come to them herein from their Lord.

Any other garbage you want to spew you brain dead viper?

 

[جوري]

submission.org is a Quran only sect.. thank you for confirming our beliefs all along..

Here is the actual tafsir:


Refuting Idolatry, Al-Lat and Al-`Uzza

Allah the Exalted rebukes the idolators for worshipping idols and taking rivals to Him. They built houses for their idols to resemble the Ka`bah built by Prophet Ibrahim, Allah's Khalil.

[أَفَرَءَيْتُمُ اللَّـتَ]

(Have you then considered Al-Lat,) Al-Lat was a white stone with inscriptions on. There was a house built around Al-Lat in At-Ta'if with curtains, servants and a sacred courtyard around it. The people of At-Ta'if, the tribe of Thaqif and their allies, worshipped Al-Lat. They would boast to Arabs, except the Quraysh, that they had Al-Lat. Ibn Jarir said, "They derived Al-Lat's name from Allah's Name, and made it feminine. Allah is far removed from what they ascribe to Him. It was reported that Al-Lat is pronounced Al-Lat because, according to `Abdullah bin `Abbas, Mujahid, and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas, Al-Lat was a man who used to mix Sawiq (a kind of barley mash) with water for the pilgrims during the time of Jahiliyyah. When he died, they remained next to his grave and worshipped him.'' Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn `Abbas said about Allah's statement,

[اللَّـتَ وَالْعُزَّى]

(Al-Lat, and Al-`Uzza.) "Al-Lat was a man who used to mix Sawiq for the pilgrims.'' Ibn Jarir said, "They also derived the name for their idol Al-`Uzza from Allah's Name Al-`Aziz. Al-`Uzza was a tree on which the idolators placed a monument and curtains, in the area of Nakhlah, between Makkah and At-Ta'if. The Quraysh revered Al-`Uzza.'' During the battle of Uhud, Abu Sufyan said, "We have Al-`Uzza, but you do not have Al-`Uzza.'' Allah's Messenger replied,

«قُولُوا: اللهُ مَوْلَانَا وَلَا مَوْلَى لَكُم»

(Say, "Allah is Our Supporter, but you have no support.'') Manat was another idol in the area of Mushallal near Qudayd, between Makkah and Al-Madinah. The tribes of Khuza`ah, Aws and Khazraj used to revere Manat during the time of Jahiliyyah. They used to announce Hajj to the Ka`bah from next to Manat. Al-Bukhari collected a statement from `A'ishah with this meaning. There were other idols in the Arabian Peninsula that the Arabs revered just as they revered the Ka`bah, besides the three idols that Allah mentioned in His Glorious Book. Allah mentioned these three here because they were more famous than the others. An-Nasa'i recorded that Abu At-Tufayl said, "When the Messenger of Allah conquered Makkah, he sent Khalid bin Al-Walid to the area of Nakhlah where the idol of Al-`Uzza was erected on three trees of a forest. Khalid cut the three trees and approached the house built around it and destroyed it. When he went back to the Prophet and informed him of the story, the Prophet said to him,

«ارْجِعْ فَإِنَّكَ لَمْ تَصْنَعْ شَيْئًا»

(Go back and finish your mission, for you have not finished it.) Khalid went back and when the custodians who were also its servants of Al-`Uzza saw him, they started invoking by calling Al-`Uzza! When Khalid approached it, he found a naked woman whose hair was untidy and who was throwing sand on her head. Khalid killed her with the sword and went back to the Messenger of Allah , who said to him,

«تِلْكَ الْعُزَّى»

(That was Al-`Uzza!)'' Muhammad bin Ishaq narrated, "Al-Lat belonged to the tribe of Thaqif in the area of At-Ta'if. Banu Mu`attib were the custodians of Al-Lat and its servants.'' I say that the Prophet sent Al-Mughirah bin Shu`bah and Abu Sufyan Sakhr bin Harb to destroy Al-Lat. They carried out the Prophet's command and built a Masjid in its place in the city of At-Ta'if. Muhammad bin Ishaq said that Manat used to be the idol of the Aws and Khazraj tribes and those who followed their religion in Yathrib (Al-Madinah). Manat was near the coast, close to the area of Mushallal in Qudayd. The Prophet sent Abu Sufyan Sakhr bin Harb or `Ali bin Abi Talib to demolish it. Ibn Ishaq said that Dhul-Khalasah was the idol of the tribes of Daws, Khath`am and Bajilah, and the Arabs who resided in the area of Tabalah. I say that Dhul-Khalasah was called the Southern Ka`bah, and the Ka`bah in Makkah was called the Northern Ka`bah. The Messenger of Allah sent Jarir bin `Abdullah Al-Bajali to Dhul-Khalasah and he destroyed it. Ibn Ishaq said that Fals was the idol of Tay' and the neighboring tribes in the Mount of Tay', such as Salma and Ajja. Ibn Hisham said that some scholars of knowledge told him that the Messenger of Allah sent `Ali bin Abi Talib to Fals and he destroyed it and found two swords in its treasure, which the Prophet then gave to `Ali as war spoils. Muhammad bin Ishaq also said that the tribes of Himyar, and Yemen in general, had a house of worship in San`a' called Riyam. He mentioned that there was a black dog in it and that the religious men who went with Tubba` removed it, killed it and demolished the building. Ibn Ishaq said that Ruda' was a structure of Bani Rabi`ah bin Ka`b bin Sa`d bin Zayd Manat bin Tamim, which Al-Mustawghir bin Rabi`ah bin Ka`b bin Sa`d demolished after Islam. In Sindad there was Dhul-Ka`bat, the idol of the tribes of Bakr and Taghlib, the sons of the Wa'il, and also the Iyad tribes.

Next​

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=53&tid=50989

 

[جوري]

Thankyou very very much for finally confirming that you are not Muslim. What you have just said is utter nonsense. Read the surah, even a deceitful missionary such as yourself can see.

He has been found out from the link..
I am not sure if these mindless folks think we're going to see a link with something eluding to Islam and jump all over it.. God what deviants are out there..
May Allah swt keep us aright the straight path.. truly these are the tribulations of the end!