Things in Islam I am curious about...

[aamirsaab]

The above post found in another thread raises a question for me.

If only the spiritually pure can touch the Qur'an, and if this refers specifically to "spiritual" purity, and if I am a mushirk or kaffir, how would I ever be allowed to touch the Qur'an? Yet, Muslims do give copies of the Qur'an to those that they are trying to convert -- I know they have been given to me. Assumably, since those people had not yet converted they would not be spiritually pure. So, how is it that a Muslim can give to an impure person such as me a copy of the Qur'an to read when "None shall touch it save the purified ones" (56:79)?

Isn't this a catch-22 when it comes to sharing the Islamic faith with non-Muslims?

It's a translation error. The verse should read none shall grasp it save the purified ones. Grasp being used in the metaphorical sense i.e 'understand' - not the physical sense of the word (touch).

In short: none but the sincere will be able to understand the Quran.

Edit: What crayon is referring to is wudhu/ablution - this is not neccessarily what is meant by sura 56 verse 79 (the ayat GraceSeeker posted)

 

[YusufNoor]

It's a translation error. The verse should read none shall grasp it save the purified ones. Grasp being used in the metaphorical sense i.e 'understand' - not the physical sense of the word (touch).

In short: none but the sincere will be able to understand the Quran.

Edit: What crayon is referring to is wudhu/ablution - this is not neccessarily what is meant by sura 56 verse 79 (the ayat GraceSeeker posted)

this is what i have been told is correct.

If only the spiritually pure can touch the Qur'an, and if this refers specifically to "spiritual" purity, and if I am a mushirk or kaffir, how would I ever be allowed to touch the Qur'an? Yet, Muslims do give copies of the Qur'an to those that they are trying to convert -- I know they have been given to me. Assumably, since those people had not yet converted they would not be spiritually pure. So, how is it that a Muslim can give to an impure person such as me a copy of the Qur'an to read when "None shall touch it save the purified ones" (56:79)?

Isn't this a catch-22 when it comes to sharing the Islamic faith with non-Muslims?

in addition, i have also been told that the Qur'an is ONLY the Arabic. when the translations or Tafseer [even] are MORE than the Qur'an Arabic, it ceases to be a Qur'an. it is then a translation or a Tafseer. and Allahu Alum.

 

[Hugo]

1)Define "mercy",
If someone does something bad to you, Can you forgive him or not? and if you do, do you have to take it on someone else, do you have to for example punish someone else to do that?

2) Are you convinced by the idea that the atonement for all sin (even for example things like calling bad names) is death?

Thank you for such excellent questions. I hope my answers are at least helpful if not fully comprehensive.

Mercy = leniency and compassion shown towards offenders by a person or agency charged with administering justice. A disposition to be kind and forgiving. The feeling that motivates compassion. Something for which we may be thankful. Other synonyms: clemency, charity, leniency, benevolence, blessing, boon and favour.

If someone does something bad I and you I guess can forgive him but someone in effect has to take the consequences or you can say punishment it's not a free exchange so in that sense I take the punishment even though I did not do the bad deed. For example, suppose you steal my car and I tell the police, you get caught and tell the police you are willing to give me the car back. Do you think the police will let it go at that even if I might? It seems to me that someone always has to take the punishment. Christians and Jews believe that the Messiah or Jesus respectively does that, its not fair of course but it is grace.

This all stems from God being Holy so if he were to let you off but not me that would not be just and if God is not just he cannot be holy either. It follows that atonement comes through the sacrificial death of Jesus, who to use the Biblical words "takes away sin".

 

[Zafran]

Thank you for such excellent questions. I hope my answers are at least helpful if not fully comprehensive.

Mercy = leniency and compassion shown towards offenders by a person or agency charged with administering justice. A disposition to be kind and forgiving. The felling that motivates compassion. Something for which we may be thankful. Other synonyms: clemency, charity, leniency, benevolence, blessing, boon and favour.

If someone does something bad I and you I guess can forgive him but someone in effect has to take the consequences or you can say punishment it's not a free exchange so in that sense I take the punishment even though I did not do the bad deed. For example, suppose you steal my car and I tell the police, you get caught and tell the police you are willing to give me the car back. Do you think the police will let it go at that even if I might? It seems to me that someone always has to take the punishment. Christians and Jews believe that the Messiah or Jesus respectively does that, its not fair of course but it is grace.

This all stems from God being Holy so if he were to let you off but not me that would not be just and if God is not just he cannot be holy either. It follows that atonement comes through the sacrificial death of Jesus, who to use the Biblical words "takes away sin".

Salaam

In Islam there is forgivness and Atonemnet - 2 very differnet things

If God forgives the sin through his mercy - then its as if it didnt happen - thats true forgivness - this is linked with God being all knowing in the sense God knows everyones internal state - whilst in the world we dont - so we Jugde outwardly - God has the power and the ability to Judge the internal and outward of the human - something humans cannot grasp as we dont know the internal state of human beings.

If there is atonement then its carried out if God does not forgive the sin.

we dont believe in someone else taking the punishment for people - that is seen as an unjust act. If you recieve the forgivness then your forgiven if you dont then the person who did the act has to take the punishment.

Allah knows best

In the material there world there is no such thing as true Justice - True Justice can only come from God in the hereafter as he is the best of Judgers.

 

[Hugo]

Moses killed someone, did Allah forgive him?
were there men that Allah gave guidance to "before the current Christian version of salvation?"

If I might respectfully comment on some of the Hadith and I accept the isnad is sound but note that (as far as I can tell) the Qu'ran is not cited anywhere (if I am wrong please add the refs)

On the authority of Anas, who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah say: "Allah the Almighty said: 'O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.'"

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah, who said that the Messenger of Allah said:"When Allah decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: 'My mercy prevails over my wrath.'"

Hugo - I think this would agree more or less with a Christian view that even the most grievous sin can be forgiven except it does not tell us on what basis forgiveness is given?

O My servants, you will not attain harming Me so as to harm Me, and you will not attain benefiting Me so as to benefit Me. O my servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to become as pious as the most pious heart of any one man of you, that would not increase My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as wicked as the most wicked heart of any one man of you, that would not decrease My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to rise up in one place and make a request of Me, and were I to give everyone what he requested, that would not decrease what I have, any more than a needle decreases the sea if put into it.

O My servants, it is but your deeds that I reckon up for you and then recompense you for, so let him who finds good praise Allah, and let him who finds other than that blame no one but himself."

Hugo - I assume this is relevant because it implies (I think) within the subject of discussion here that God loses nothing by forgiving. But we then seem to be back where we started in that if God acts in a partial way as is implied here then I cannot quite see how he can be Holy?

"Whosoever removes a worldly grief from a believer, Allah will remove from him one of the griefs of the Day of Judgment. Whosoever alleviates [the lot of] a needy person, Allah will alleviate [his lot] in this world and the next. Whosoever shields a Muslim, Allah will shield him in this world and the next. Allah will aid a servant [of His] so long as the servant aids his brother. Whosoever follows a path to seek knowledge therein, Allah will make easy for him a path to Paradise. No people gather together in one of the houses of Allah, reciting the Book of Allah and studying it among themselves, without tranquillity descending upon them, mercy enveloping them, the angels surrounding them, and Allah making mention of them amongst those who are with Him. Whosoever is slowed down by his actions will not be hastened forward by his lineage."

Hugo - here we learn that God rewards good deeds but unfortunately it says nothing about punishments. So again we seem to be back where we started in that if God acts in a partial way as is implied here then I cannot quite see how he can be Holy?

I have lost some of the authorities in forming this post but no disrespect was intended and they can all be found in post 1151

 

[GreyKode]

But Hugo, what about doing justice to men?
What if I kill someone, then according to you, this is a sin against the holiness of God, but Jesus has already paid for it, sooo... that's it.
I'm clear.

 

[Hugo]

But Hugo, what about doing justice to men?
What if I kill someone, then according to you, this is a sin against the holiness of God, but Jesus has already paid for it, sooo... that's it.
I'm clear.

Well of course we want justice in this life if we can get it when we are wronged in some way. Though, sadly, we are not so keen when the justice falls on us. I might say two things:

1. According to Islam and on the authority of Anas, who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah say: "Allah the Almighty said: 'O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you.

So who paid for this and does it mean every sin can be forgiven? It seem in this respect you have exactly the same problem that you ask me about.

2. It is interesting you bring this up because the very same question is asked in the Bible. Romans 6:1-8 (NIV)

1. What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2. By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3. Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4. We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

So one might say, God's grace is enough for all but has to be accepted and if you go on as you were before its a sure sign that God's grace has not touched you.

This must be true for you also since if someone becomes a Muslim but there is no change in their life then one might doubt if anything at all has really happened to them.

 

[Zafran]

Well of course we want justice in this life if we can get it when we are wronged in some way. Though, sadly, we are not so keen when the justice falls on us. I might say two things:

1. According to Islam and on the authority of Anas, who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah say: "Allah the Almighty said: 'O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you.

So who paid for this and does it mean every sin can be forgiven? It seem in this respect you have exactly the same problem that you ask me about.

2. It is interesting you bring this up because the very same question is asked in the Bible. Romans 6:1-8 (NIV)

1. What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2. By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3. Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4. We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

So one might say, God's grace is enough for all but has to be accepted and if you go on as you were before its a sure sign that God's grace has not touched you.

This must be true for you also since if someone becomes a Muslim but there is no change in their life then one might doubt if anything at all has really happened to them.

But isnt accepting christ only what you need to go to heaven in christainty?

Every sin can be forgiven in Islam EXPECT shirk and it also depends on sincerity - as i said before only God knows the internal state as God is all knowing - humans on earth dont.

By the way your right about Justice and when it falls on the human we dont want to give it - thats why Mercy is the real thing all humans should be asking for and giving

 

[Hugo]

But Hugo, what about doing justice to men?
What if I kill someone, then according to you, this is a sin against the holiness of God, but Jesus has already paid for it, sooo... that's it.
I'm clear.

But isnt accepting christ only what you need to go to heaven in christainty?

Every sin can be forgiven in Islam EXPECT shirk and it also depends on sincerity - as i said before only God knows the internal state as God is all knowing - humans on earth dont. By the way your right about Justice and when it falls on the human we dont want to give it - thats why Mercy is the real thing all humans should be asking for and giving

You are of course right but what does it mean to 'accept Christ' and how will you or I know that someone has done that? Accepting Christ means to accept in faith that you are sinful, accept in faith his sacrificial death as expiation for those sins and accept in faith the resurrection as proof of its validity.

In terms of knowing who has done that then we might say that it's or should be a life changing experience and from then on your whole life is dedicated in every part to His service. This does not mean we are from then on sinless because we still have to go on living in the world with its temptations and so fall into sin. So doing a good deed is just as praiseworthy as praying if it is done in his service and for his praise - do you agree? Doing a bad deed we need to ask God to forgive us and we must also where we can try to put right what we have done.

We call shirk sinning against the Holy Spirit, the one unforgivable sin but the idea is the same, that is if we hear the Gospel and ignore it, we are unbelievers and outside God's mercy. It's a bit like you seeing a red light and ignoring it, well then your on your own.

 

[Zafran]

You are of course right but what does it mean to 'accept Christ' and how will you or I know that someone has done that? Accepting Christ means to accept in faith that you are sinful, accept in faith his sacrificial death as expiation for those sins and accept in faith the resurrection as proof of its validity.

In terms of knowing who has done that then we might say that it's or should be a life changing experience and from then on your whole life is dedicated in every part to His service. This does not mean we are from then on sinless because we still have to go on living in the world with its temptations and so fall into sin. So doing a good deed is just as praiseworthy as praying if it is done in his service and for his praise - do you agree? Doing a bad deed we need to ask God to forgive us and we must also where we can try to put right what we have done.

We call shirk sinning against the Holy Spirit, the one unforgivable sin but the idea is the same, that is if we hear the Gospel and ignore it, we are unbelievers and outside God's mercy. It's a bit like you seeing a red light and ignoring it, well then your on your own.

Intresting we call shirk anybody that jions partners with God like christainty and Jesus pbuh.

so if you accept all the conditions as you have stated but dont repent for the sin you do afterwards in christianty - can a christain go to hell and be punished for his worng action and for not repenting even though he has accepted Jesus to be his "saviour"?

 

[Grace Seeker]

so if you accept all the conditions as you have stated but dont repent for the sin you do afterwards in christianty - can a christain go to hell and be punished for his worng action and for not repenting even though he has accepted Jesus to be his "saviour"?

I don't want to make a long answer to a question about Christianity in a thread devoted to Islam, but the short answer is YES.

If you want further explanation or details please ask them in a thread about Christianity and I will answer there. I hope to keep this thread clean to discuss Islam and not have it closed for going off topic or descending to arguments.

 

[YusufNoor]

If I might respectfully comment on some of the Hadith and I accept the isnad is sound but note that (as far as I can tell) the Qu'ran is not cited anywhere (if I am wrong please add the refs)

On the authority of Anas, who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah say: "Allah the Almighty said: 'O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.'"

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah, who said that the Messenger of Allah said:"When Allah decreed the Creation He pledged Himself by writing in His book which is laid down with Him: 'My mercy prevails over my wrath.'"

Hugo - I think this would agree more or less with a Christian view that even the most grievous sin can be forgiven except it does not tell us on what basis forgiveness is given?

actually, the NT DOES discuss, but not explain, an "unforgivable" sin. and you quoted 'My mercy prevails over my wrath.' you see, if Allah wanted creatures that only obey him He has them, they are called Angels. if He wanted creatures that would only disobey them, then the Shayalteen could fill that role. we were created as creatures that WOULD sin, but then Allah taught us words of repentance [Tawbah]. Tawbah is an act of worship. Islam is about constant reliance on and returning to Allah! that's why we we created. if you take the view that we were created for "something else," and then our "sinning" messed that up, then i would submit that THAT Creaotor ISN'T as "all-knowing" as one would expect.

O My servants, you will not attain harming Me so as to harm Me, and you will not attain benefiting Me so as to benefit Me. O my servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to become as pious as the most pious heart of any one man of you, that would not increase My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as wicked as the most wicked heart of any one man of you, that would not decrease My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to rise up in one place and make a request of Me, and were I to give everyone what he requested, that would not decrease what I have, any more than a needle decreases the sea if put into it.

O My servants, it is but your deeds that I reckon up for you and then recompense you for, so let him who finds good praise Allah, and let him who finds other than that blame no one but himself."

Hugo - I assume this is relevant because it implies (I think) within the subject of discussion here that God loses nothing by forgiving. But we then seem to be back where we started in that if God acts in a partial way as is implied here then I cannot quite see how he can be Holy?

"Whosoever removes a worldly grief from a believer, Allah will remove from him one of the griefs of the Day of Judgment. Whosoever alleviates [the lot of] a needy person, Allah will alleviate [his lot] in this world and the next. Whosoever shields a Muslim, Allah will shield him in this world and the next. Allah will aid a servant [of His] so long as the servant aids his brother. Whosoever follows a path to seek knowledge therein, Allah will make easy for him a path to Paradise. No people gather together in one of the houses of Allah, reciting the Book of Allah and studying it among themselves, without tranquillity descending upon them, mercy enveloping them, the angels surrounding them, and Allah making mention of them amongst those who are with Him. Whosoever is slowed down by his actions will not be hastened forward by his lineage."

Hugo - here we learn that God rewards good deeds but unfortunately it says nothing about punishments. So again we seem to be back where we started in that if God acts in a partial way as is implied here then I cannot quite see how he can be Holy?

I have lost some of the authorities in forming this post but no disrespect was intended and they can all be found in post 1151

here's one Hadith that speaks again to Allah's Mercy:

On the authority of Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with them both), from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), among the sayings he related from his Lord (glorified and exalted be He) is that He said:

"Allah has written down the good deeds and the bad ones." Then He explained it [by saying that] "he who has intended a good deed and has not done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as a full good deed, but if he has intended it and has done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as from ten good deeds to seven hundred times, or many times over. But if he has intended a bad deed and has not done it, Allah writes it down with Himself as a full good deed, but if he has intended it and has done it, Allah writes it down as one bad deed."

[Bukhari and Muslim.]

and one about punishment [and intention]:

On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) say:

"The first of people against whom judgment will be pronounced on the Day of Resurrection will be a man who died a martyr. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: 'And what did you do about them?' He will say: 'I fought for You until I died a martyr.' He will say: 'You have lied - you did but fight that it might be said [of you]: 'He is courageous.'' And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire. [Another] will be a man who has studied [religious] knowledge and has taught it and who used to recite the Qur'an. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: 'And what did you do about them?' He will say: 'I studied [religious] knowledge and I taught it and I recited the Qur'an for Your sake.' He will say: 'You have lied - you did but study [religious] knowledge that it might be said [of you]: 'He is learned.'' And you recited the Qur'an that it might be said [of you]: 'He is a reciter.' And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire. [Another] will be a man whom Allah had made rich and to whom He had given all kinds of wealth. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: 'And what did you do about them?' He will say: 'I left no path [un-trodden] in which You like money to be spent without spending in it for Your sake.' He will say: 'You have lied - you did but do so that it might be said [of you]: 'He is open-handed.'' And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire."

[Muslim (also by at-Tirmidhi and an-Nasa'i)]

but you see, when we begin something we say: "BismiAllah ir Rahman ir Raheem," we address Allah's as the Most Merciful, the Most Beneficent. we don't address Him by His attributes of anger.

 

[Grace Seeker]

you quoted 'My mercy prevails over my wrath.' you see, if Allah wanted creatures that only obey him He has them, they are called Angels. if He wanted creatures that would only disobey them, then the Shayalteen could fill that role. we were created as creatures that WOULD sin, but then Allah taught us words of repentance [Tawbah]. Tawbah is an act of worship. Islam is about constant reliance on and returning to Allah! that's why we we created. if you take the view that we were created for "something else," and then our "sinning" messed that up, then i would submit that THAT Creaotor ISN'T as "all-knowing" as one would expect.

Yusuf, I think that is a good reminder of the central place that worship of Allah has in Islam. It isn't just about obedience, but about obedience because one is worshipping as one's God the one who calls you to obedience. Thank-you.

 

[Muslim Woman]

In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful

Salaam/ Peace

..if I am a mushirk or kaffir, how would I ever be allowed to touch the Qur'an?

I heard a lecture of Dr. Zakir Naik. He said , the Quranic verse refers to the book that is preserved in the heaven . Only angels can touch that .

In this world , if we don't allow non-Muslims to read Quran , how they will know about words of God then ? There are many non-Muslims Arabs ; it's better for them to read the Quran in original language rather than reading translation .

 

[جوري]

Given how many folks take the Quran and desecrate, draw crosses on it

and other things I don't wish to mention, I really don't want to hear about, how are we supposed to learn it, if we can't touch it?

Purity should be of the heart, mind and soul, not just in the form of ablution.

 

[Hugo]

Intresting we call shirk anybody that jions partners with God like christainty and Jesus pbuh.

so if you accept all the conditions as you have stated but dont repent for the sin you do afterwards in christianty - can a christain go to hell and be punished for his worng action and for not repenting even though he has accepted Jesus to be his "saviour"?

It is similar in Christianity; the Bible says anyone who does not believe and trust in Jesus and repent of sin is against the Holy Spirit. Matthew 12:32-33 (NIV)

32. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

The meaning here of these words spoken by Jesus is that if they refuse his message, because it is the Holy Spirit that convicts us of sin, there is then no hope of salvation.

You are right to point out the place of repentance and that is what I implied by talking about a changed life. So accepting Christ means to accept in faith that you are sinful and repenting those sins, accept in faith his sacrificial death as expiation for those sins and accept in faith the resurrection as proof of its validity.

To answer your question therefore if there is no sense of sin and repentance then one would have to wonder if the person is a Christian at all. We cannot act as judge of course but as the Bible say "by their works shall you know them"

 

[جوري]

as the Bible say "by their works shall you know them"

Christians should really reflect on that statement-- or are they exempt from it?-- thanks for sharing indeed!

all the best

 

[glo]

Christians should really reflect on that statement-- or are they exempt from it?-- thanks for sharing indeed!

all the best

I suppose we should all reflect on that statement - best every moment of every day.

Is your experience of Christians really SO bad, Skye? imsad

Peace

 

[جوري]

I suppose we should all reflect on that statement - best every moment of every day.

Is your experience of Christians really SO bad, Skye? imsad

Peace

No, just a few sanctimonious hypocrites I have encountered on this forum-- they appear to be one way but when opportunity strikes and hidden from most eyes, they let their true colors and agenda shine!

all the best

 

[glo]

No, just a few sanctimonious hypocrites I have encountered on this forum-- they appear to be one way but when opportunity strikes and hidden from most eyes, they let their true colors and agenda shine!

all the best

As long as you don't let it could your judgment of Christians per se.

Peace