Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Sol Invictus]

Indeed, I have asked this question (or at least a variety of it) before. But I still don't understand. It is one thing not to rub it in another's face in order to have peace, but it seems as if some council more than that and actual deception. I just can't imagine Muhammad (pbuh) giving that same advice. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe he would have. Maybe he even did. But, I have a higher opinion him and what it means to be a follower of Islam (or any religion) than that.

though admittedly, this stems from the christian understanding that god is to be sought after above all else. i must say that i too felt some discomfort at the notion that one would be allowed to hide their faith if to admit their belief to others would jeopardize their ability to ensure for themselves commodities like food, money, home etc. as my faith regards this matter, there is absolutely no reason to deceive others as to what one truly believes even if it is at the risk of one's own life and as such it goes without saying that anything else that one may suffer in this life due to their belief in god is trivial.

Luke 9:26 "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

as far as i am concerned, there is no viable reason to deceive others as opposed to your faith. the god who is not worth dying for is not worth living for and this is precisely what the early christians did, choosing rather to die than to say the very simple words, "caesar is lord". that said, this is the christian perspective and i am very much interested to know why islam differs in this regard.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

... I just can't imagine Muhammad (pbuh) giving that same advice. .

why not ? what's the problem here ? If your life is in danger , why cant' u hide your faith ? During the time of Prophet pbuh ,many convert Muslims were tortured to death.

I remember a convert story of a Christian missionary who married a nun , they came under bomb attack , their twin kids died. To avoid these kind of tragedy and other problems like finanical , I see no problem if one hides it .

In my country , if a Muslim accepts Christianity or other faith and tell parent , it's almost sure that dad / elder bro / other male relative like uncles will beat him /her. So , will u advice a young Muslim to risk his/ her life and announce of the new faith ( Chrisitanity ) ?

 

[Sol Invictus]

Salaam/Peace

why not ? what's the problem here ? If your life is in danger , why cant' u hide your faith ? During the time of Prophet pbuh ,many convert Muslims were tortured to death.

I remember a convert story of a Christian missionary who married a nun , they came under bomb attack , their twin kids died. To avoid these kind of tragedy and other problems like finanical , I see no problem if one hides it .

In my country , if a Muslim accepts Christianity or other faith and tell parent , it's almost sure that dad / elder bro / other male relative like uncles will beat him /her. So , will u advice a young Muslim to risk his/ her life and announce of the new faith ( Chrisitanity ) ?

to the christian, nothing is as important as their faith in god and nothing in this world is an adequate reason to deny their beliefs. while the christian is not forced to go out of their way to show that they are a follower of christ when they live in an area where such an admission would endanger their life, they do not have the luxury of consciously deceiving others or participating in acts that are opposed to their faith. all your above examples focus on people wishing to protect their own life and well-being than to suffer for the truth and i as a christian could not accept that nor encourage others to do the same? if one's life and comfort trumps the truth that they believe in, what then is the worth of the belief which they hold? once again, even torture is not an adequate reason for denying one's belief, nothing in this world is. you have given me an islamic example and i will counter with a christian one: for the first 300 years the early christians were routinely persecuted and killed by the roman empire and still their suffering was not deemed an adequate reason for them to deny their faith in christ. one knows the measure of an individual by those principles he will not relinquish even in the face of death. to believe that one's life, well-being, children, anything else are more important than they truth they bear is in my eyes rather disgraceful.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. --- Romans 8:35-39

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

once again, even torture is not an adequate reason for denying one's belief,

I think , we are talking about hiding' one's belief , not ' denying ' . A convert Muslim does not need ( it's not a must in Islam ) to annouce his/her Shahada openly / in public.

Faith is between a person and God Almigthy . So , a public announcement is not compulsory.

And God Almighty Knows Best.


Say: My Prayer and my sacrifice, my living and my dying belong to Allah, the Lord of all the worlds (al-An'am 6:162).

 

[Sol Invictus]

Salaam/Peace
I think , we are talking about hiding' one's belief , not ' denying ' . A convert Muslim does not need ( it's not a must in Islam ) to annouce his/her Shahada openly / in public.

Faith is between a person and God Almigthy . So , a public announcement is not compulsory.

And God Almighty Knows Best.

i agree that a public announcement of one's faith is not needed but along your argument, if one is tortured or is threatened with torture, one would be at liberty to claim that they are not in fact a muslim. while i suppose that this is perfectly fine in islam, in christianity, the christian does not have this right. if asked whether or not i am a christian and even if warned that if i answer in the affirmative, i will have to pay for it with my life, i have no right to hide the fact that i am a follower of christ. there is simply nothing in the world that is an adequate reason for me to deny the faith which god gave me or hide it when questioned in order to save my life. according to christianity, when they say that their love for god is worth more than their life they are to mean it. but yes, god certainly does know best.

 

[Grace Seeker]

So, the consensus answer to my question (though I don't think quite universal) seems to be that:
1) It is OK for Muslims to conceal their faith when necessary. They are under no complusion to share it or identify themselves as Muslims.
2) It is also OK for Muslims to be deceptive with regard to their faith.
3) Even still, it is better for Muslim not to outright deny their faith, though in order to save one's life this too may be permissible.

Likewise we have been told before that Muslims are not to eat pork, but can do so if starving.
Muslims are not to engage in music, though Muhammad (p) granted at least one exception to this at a wedding.

Are there any practices (not beliefs, but behaviors) that are considered absolute or inviolate in Islam?

 

[GuestFellow]

So, the consensus answer to my question (though I don't think quite universal) seems to be that:

1) It is OK for Muslims to conceal their faith when necessary. They are under no complusion to share it or identify themselves as Muslims.

2) It is also OK for Muslims to be deceptive with regard to their faith.

3) Even still, it is better for Muslim not to outright deny their faith, though in order to save one's life this too may be permissible.

If someone converted to Islam and lived in a hostile environment, then I see nothing wrong to hide their faith. It is safer for them. Allah knows they have converted and that is all that matters.

Some people may need more time to tell their family and friends about their conversion, it might come as a shock.

I'm jut elaborating on your points...

Likewise we have been told before that Muslims are not to eat pork, but can do so if starving.

Starvation is very painful and I think it represents how merciful Allah is to make an exception for some rules.

Muslims are not to engage in music, though Muhammad (p) granted at least one exception to this at a wedding.

Evidence?

Singing is allowed but music is forbidden...from what I know.

Are there any practices (not beliefs, but behaviors) that are considered absolute or inviolate in Islam?

Fasting. If your sick, then there is no need to fast.

There is no need to perform pilgrimage to Hajj if you are really poor and cannot afford the journey.

I think there are some more exceptions to rules.

 

[Woodrow]

So, the consensus answer to my question (though I don't think quite universal) seems to be that:
1) It is OK for Muslims to conceal their faith when necessary. They are under no complusion to share it or identify themselves as Muslims.
2) It is also OK for Muslims to be deceptive with regard to their faith.
3) Even still, it is better for Muslim not to outright deny their faith, though in order to save one's life this too may be permissible.

Likewise we have been told before that Muslims are not to eat pork, but can do so if starving.
Muslims are not to engage in music, though Muhammad (p) granted at least one exception to this at a wedding.

Are there any practices (not beliefs, but behaviors) that are considered absolute or inviolate in Islam?

Peace Gene,

I will give my own personal opinion, not based on any of the post, just what I have gathered from my own asking of questions.

1) It is OK for Muslims to conceal their faith when necessary. They are under no complusion to share it or identify themselves as Muslims.

From what I have learned that is a general consensus of many if not all I have ever discussed that with.How ever the same people have told me it is best not to do so and overall it is better to always keep a high profile of being a Muslim

2) It is also OK for Muslims to be deceptive with regard to their faith.

I can not agree that it is OK, however it is understandable that a person would do so if they were in danger if they acknowledged being Muslim. It is seen as being coerced into having to be deceptive under a real or assumed threat.

3) Even still, it is better for Muslim not to outright deny their faith, though in order to save one's life this too may be permissible.

I agree although personally I hope I would never do so, for any reason, to me I see that as fearing somebody besides Allaah(swt) and Allaah(swt) is the only one I ever need fear to disobey.

I like the way you separated Belief and Behavior in this last statement. Although I strive to keep my behavior in accordance with my belief I am only human and subject to the possibility that fear could cause me to act contrary to what I believe.

Are there any practices (not beliefs, but behaviors) that are considered absolute or inviolate in Islam?

I am one of those people who doubt any human statement that contains the word never or always. Human behavior is human and as such it is not absolute. My answer to your question is no, since you asking about behaviors and not beliefs.

 

[Tyrion]

Like Woodrow has just done, I'll try to answer your post based on what I know and have heard.

So, the consensus answer to my question (though I don't think quite universal) seems to be that:
1) It is OK for Muslims to conceal their faith when necessary. They are under no complusion to share it or identify themselves as Muslims.

From what I understand, it is okay for a Muslim to hide his faith if he knows it will bring about hardship, danger, or death. However, it's not like this is the recommended option... There are many verses of the Quran that highlight how we should always hold tight to our faith, and not give in during times of hardship. We think very highly of those who have died for Islam, and if you look into early Islamic history you'll find many people who were murdered In Mecca for not renouncing their belief, when they technically could have. These people are thought of as martyrs who hold a very high place in Paradise. (Again, this is just from what I understand. If anyone knows better, please feel free to correct me.)

2) It is also OK for Muslims to be deceptive with regard to their faith.

I don't like the way this one is worded... Deceptive is a fairly negative word. But like I said before, if one is in a position where they have little choice, then I believe it is permissible. This is true even for things such as fasting or the eating of pork.

He has only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and any (food) over which the name of other than Allah has been invoked. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (16:115)

3) Even still, it is better for Muslim not to outright deny their faith, though in order to save one's life this too may be permissible.

I believe that can be the case. Remember though, intention and sincerity is what's really important in Islam... God will forgive if you do something for the right reasons. ( I believe this is true for the most part anyway... Again, feel free to correct me. )

Likewise we have been told before that Muslims are not to eat pork, but can do so if starving.
Muslims are not to engage in music, though Muhammad (p) granted at least one exception to this at a wedding.

I think I already covered the pork thing...

I'm one of the few members on this board who considers music lawful though. Muslims have varying opinions on this (although you wouldn't guess that from this forum alone), but let's not get into that debate now.

 

[Grace Seeker]

a somewhat correct answer will not score you a point, not on a test nor in the hereafter

The above was said in reference to a different topic (so I've not provided the link), but as I got to thinking of how often a life of Islam is presented as being a test, I wondered if the same thought expressed above in any way applied to the test that is this life?

 

[M.I.A.]

The above was said in reference to a different topic (so I've not provided the link), but as I got to thinking of how often a life of Islam is presented as being a test, I wondered if the same thought expressed above in any way applied to the test that is this life?

life is a test, but we do not know the marking scheme lol

people are forgiven or not by allah alone, and some minor things can grant a person paradise and likewise hell also.

so a partially correct answer could tip the scales.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Thank-you M.I.A. An interesting view. I would be pleased to hear from several different members on this question.

 

[Atlast]

life is a test, but we do not know the marking scheme lol

What do you mean by marking scheme?

people are forgiven or not by allah alone, and some minor things can grant a person paradise and likewise hell also.

That sounds pretty sinister, dosen't it?

 

[Ramadhan]

That sounds pretty sinister, dosen't it?

No.
Allah is Just and His mercy encompasses His wrath.
as his creatures we do not have even an atomic proportion of full knowledge, so whatever He decides for us it will infinitely just, and even then we will be granted mercy.
We will not be wronged and everything will be revealed for us during the day of Judgement.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Pardon me for repeating a question that I know I've asked in other contexts before, but I don't remember the source.

As I understand Islam the standard view I've heard expressed is that while most people sin, that prophets do not. Not that they are perfect and never make mistakes, but that their mistakes are not those of moral failings. So that brings me to two questions:

1) First is the understanding I expressed above correct? And if it is not or is so only in the roughest of sense, would someone please correct and refine it for me to be more precise and accurate.


2) What are the texts on which this teaching is established? Is this idea found in the explicit teachings of the Qur'an, the Hadith, or more so understood as implied and with the explict teaching is found primarily in the interpretation of those texts by Muslim scholars?


Thanks!!

 

[siam]

So, the consensus answer to my question (though I don't think quite universal) seems to be that:
1) It is OK for Muslims to conceal their faith when necessary. They are under no complusion to share it or identify themselves as Muslims.
2) It is also OK for Muslims to be deceptive with regard to their faith.
3) Even still, it is better for Muslim not to outright deny their faith, though in order to save one's life this too may be permissible.

Likewise we have been told before that Muslims are not to eat pork, but can do so if starving.
Muslims are not to engage in music, though Muhammad (p) granted at least one exception to this at a wedding.

Are there any practices (not beliefs, but behaviors) that are considered absolute or inviolate in Islam?

life is valuable in Islam---more so than excessive pride/arrogance.

invoilate--belief in ONE God---Tawheed

 

[Grace Seeker]

--bump--

Still looking for answers to the question above (post #2395).

 

[siam]

Pardon me for repeating a question that I know I've asked in other contexts before, but I don't remember the source.

As I understand Islam the standard view I've heard expressed is that while most people sin, that prophets do not. Not that they are perfect and never make mistakes, but that their mistakes are not those of moral failings. So that brings me to two questions:

1) First is the understanding I expressed above correct? And if it is not or is so only in the roughest of sense, would someone please correct and refine it for me to be more precise and accurate.


2) What are the texts on which this teaching is established? Is this idea found in the explicit teachings of the Qur'an, the Hadith, or more so understood as implied and with the explict teaching is found primarily in the interpretation of those texts by Muslim scholars?


Thanks!!

I would agree with the "understanding" you have expressed about Prophets(peace be upon them).
IMO, There are several reasons for such an understanding....
1) A Prophet is a messenger of God (not a fortune-teller) and his purpose is to give Guidance. Therefore, a)such a person would be carefully selected by God to be able to bear such a burden/responsibility---and b) would have God's help in maintaining an "upright/righteous" moral character.
2) The Quran refers to the characters of various Prophets as upright/righteous.
3) The stories of the Prophets told in the Quran do not have moral ambiguity---these stories are told not for "entertainment value" but to emphasise ethico-moral principles.
Therefore, in my opinion, consideration of these points gives credibility to the "understanding" expressed.....as for anything more concrete than this, such as hadith...maybe others can help you out........

 

[siam]

I would agree with the "understanding" you have expressed about Prophets(peace be upon them).
IMO, There are several reasons for such an understanding....
1) A Prophet is a messenger of God (not a fortune-teller) and his purpose is to give Guidance. Therefore, a)such a person would be carefully selected by God to be able to bear such a burden/responsibility---and b) would have God's help in maintaining an "upright/righteous" moral character.
2) The Quran refers to the characters of various Prophets as upright/righteous.
3) The stories of the Prophets told in the Quran do not have moral ambiguity---these stories are told not for "entertainment value" but to emphasise ethico-moral principles.
Therefore, in my opinion, consideration of these points gives credibility to the "understanding" expressed.....as for anything more concrete than this, such as hadith...maybe others can help you out........

I mentioned "God's help" above---and wanted to clarify my general understanding of the concept---in my opinion, God does not infringe on anyones capacity for free-will. All of us retain this God-given capacity. In this context, "God's help" would mean an inner strengthening of the spirit so that God's will is understood more clearly and our inherent "love of God" (Taqwa) propels us to do God's will of our own free-choice.

 

[Grace Seeker]

So, this "understanding" is a conclusion derived from a humanly conceived theory? Or is it a revealed truth? If the later, what are the texts in which this truth has been revealed?