Things in Islam I am curious about...

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

So, would it then be permissible in Islam under Sharia law for a man of 54 years to marry a girl of 9 years of age today?

if she does not object , if her parents don't object , then under Islamic law --ans is yes but men made law won't allow it.



Prophet David (p) married a young one when he was 70 ...this should be enough for Jews & Christians to understand that young marriage was/ is allowed . Otherwise there should have been a restriction on age gap in major holy books.

 

[aamirsaab]

So, would it then be permissible in Islam under Sharia law for a man of 54 years to marry a girl of 9 years of age today?

Depends entirely on the social customs. Nothing to do with sharia law - meaning the minimum age of marriage is never mentioned in Sharia law.

So, if I understand you correctly, it would be a great sin to strap a bomb around your waist, walk into a market in downtown Bagdad surrounded by people who were peacably going about their own business and blow yourself up.

Yes. Though, certain scholars would disagree via the extreme circumstances card.

Then why do so many Muslims look on these acts favorably?

Some view them as martyrs for their cause but in reality, only Allah can grant people true martyrdom (and whatever it is they are promised in the afterlife). As far as I am concerned, suicide bombing is a ticket to hell.

 

[Grace Seeker]

you DO understand that for a Muslim, IF there were a verse in the Qur'an that says:

Quote:
"do not be like the people of the book who commit shirk by saying that the moon is made out of green cheese"

that THAT ALONE would be all the evidence that a Muslim needed. we follow 2 things, the Qur'an and the Sunnah. notice that the Qur'an is FIRST!

so IF there were a verse that said that and you came on here to dispute it, then the VAST MAJORITY of people here would at the least think you were misguided and lots would think you were bonkers!

What I am hearing you say is that the Qur'an is always right, even if the Qur'an is wrong, because of course since it is the Qur'an and given by God it can never be wrong. So, if the Qur'an says that 2+2=5, then that is the way it is.

Of course, I expect you to say that because the Qur'an is given by God it would never say something that wasn't true. But to assert that the Qur'an can tell you more about what I believe than I can myself is to defy logic. The Qur'an can tell you what you believe to be true of me, but it cannot tell you what I actually believe, not even the Bible can do that, only I can do that.

The idea that a Muslim knows more about what a Christian believes from reading the Qur'an than a Christian knows about what he believes himself, you may not wish to call ignorance, but it certainly is presumptious.

 

[YusufNoor]

What I am hearing you say is that the Qur'an is always right, even if the Qur'an is wrong, because of course since it is the Qur'an and given by God it can never be wrong. So, if the Qur'an says that 2+2=5, then that is the way it is.


the Qur'an DOESN'T say 2+2=5, unlike say, oh i don't know, how about 1+1+1=1.

but: "since it is the Qur'an and given by God it can never be wrong" :thumbs_up

Of course, I expect you to say that because the Qur'an is given by God it would never say something that wasn't true. But to assert that the Qur'an can tell you more about what I believe than I can myself is to defy logic. The Qur'an can tell you what you believe to be true of me, but it cannot tell you what I actually believe, not even the Bible can do that, only I can do that.

i might put it: "The Qur'an can tell you what IS true of me, but it cannot tell you what I actually believe"; there is the truth, which is what the Qur'an AND Allah's Messenger[pbuh] tells us, and then there is what others believe

The idea that a Muslim knows more about what a Christian believes from reading the Qur'an than a Christian knows about what he believes himself, you may not wish to call ignorance, but it certainly is presumptious.

see, we say that your beliefs are wrong and so you call us ignorant, and THEN you get miffed when someone does it to you...

we're not so much concerned with what an individual Christian believes, but where they're beliefs are wrong because we need to avoid the mistakes that Christians and Jews have made.

i'm quite surprised. it SOUNDS like you believe that the Lord God Almighty is incapable of pointing out human error! is this ANOTHER limitation that you have put on Him? May Allah[swt] protect us!

you seek bits and pieces of "information" about Islam rather than knowledge! watch the Bilal Philips seminar and you "understanding" should increase dramatically, and In Sha'a Allah, MANY of your questions will be answered.

 

[mkh4JC]

the Qur'an DOESN'T say 2+2=5, unlike say, oh i don't know, how about 1+1+1=1.

How about: 1x1x1 = 1?

 

[Imam]

How about: 1x1x1 = 1?

lol

Take a look at this thread
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...e-christ-he-same-substance-god-he-crea-2.html
and you will find out ,how such formula 1x1x1 = 1 is a far-fetched one to be applied to the Trinity !!!!


Wish all stick to the title of the thread (Things in Islam I am curious about)........

 

[Grace Seeker]

lol
Wish all stick to the title of the thread (Things in Islam I am curious about)........

I am. I am curious as to why a Muslim thinks that by virtue of having read the Qur'an that they know what Christians believe with regard to God, Jesus, the Bible, or anything else?

They know at best what the Qur'an says about Christians beliefs, but if these are not actually Christian beliefs, then they in fact only know what the Qur'an tells them Christian beliefs are supposed to be, not what Christian beliefs in fact truly are.

Why trust the Qur'an to tell you what either an individual Christian or Christianity as a whole believes over what Christians themselves say with regard to their beliefs?

 

[Imam]

I am. I am curious as to why a Muslim thinks that by virtue of having read the Qur'an that they know what Christians believe with regard to God, Jesus, the Bible, or anything else?

They know at best what the Qur'an says about Christians beliefs, but if these are not actually Christian beliefs

It is me who curious now ,Seeker, to know what EXACTLY the Quran says about Christians beliefs that not actually Christian beliefs ??

 

[YusufNoor]

I am. I am curious as to why a Muslim thinks that by virtue of having read the Qur'an that they know what Christians believe with regard to God, Jesus, the Bible, or anything else?

by virtue of reading the Qur'an we know ALL THAT WE NEED TO KNOW ABOUT CHRISTIANITY! we know enough to steer clear of it and to do our best not associate partners with Allah[swt].
They know at best what the Qur'an says about Christians beliefs, but if these are not actually Christian beliefs, then they in fact only know what the Qur'an tells them Christian beliefs are supposed to be, not what Christian beliefs in fact truly are.

Why trust the Qur'an to tell you what either an individual Christian or Christianity as a whole believes over what Christians themselves say with regard to their beliefs?

if you can't fathom why Muslims would trust the Qur'an over ANYTHING, i suggest that you are wasting both your time and our time here. if you are looking for Muslims to to condone your brand of polytheism, try another forum.

we are not polytheists, we don't need to learn all of the excuses that one uses to justify their associating partners with Allah. we hold firm that Allah[swt] is Unique in His Unity. ANYTHING that violates Tawheed we have no need to learn, excepting to avoid it. the ENTIRE scope of the Christian's polytheism is of little concern to us. just because you choose to preach it doesn't make it correct.

you come here to ask questions, we give answers. if you find the Truth unpalatable we cannot help help you, NOR can we change the Message of Islam to make it more palatable for you.

IF you are here to learn about Islam, then the members here will do their best to answer your questions. if you are merely here to promote your religion, we must respond from Surah 109 Al Kafiroon:

1) Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)to these Mushrikun and Kafirun): "O Al-Kafirun (disbelievers in Allah, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)!
2) "I worship not that which you worship,
3) "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
4) "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
5) "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
6) "To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islamic Monotheism)."

good day to you sir...

 

[Grace Seeker]

It is me who curious now ,Seeker, to know what EXACTLY the Quran says about Christians beliefs that not actually Christian beliefs ??

Yusuf's answer to me provides you the answer to your question. He asserts

by virtue of reading the Qur'an we know ALL THAT WE NEED TO KNOW ABOUT CHRISTIANITY! we know enough to steer clear of it and to do our best not associate partners with Allah[swt].

Christians would contend that we agree with the injunction not to associate partners with Allah/God and that we don't do that. Yet, most Muslims think that we do. Why?

Of course I know why, Muslims perceive the Christians concept of the Trinity as associating partners with Allah. But that shows a lack of understanding of what the Christian concept of the Trinity really is all about. If anything it is a division of Allah into parts, not adding partners (though I would contend it is not that either). You might object to that as well, but please object for the right reasons. I am not sure whether it is the Qur'an or if it is Islamic scholars who provide the explicit teaching that the Christian faith is one of associating partners with Allah because our understanding of the monotheisitic God includes the understanding of him as a triune (but singular) being. Perhaps that understanding is too nuanced for those outside of the Christian faith to fully comprehend, but the whatever the source the understanding presented of Christian beliefs to the Islamic world does not correctly state our beliefs. It ascribes to us something to us, that we believe in associating partners with God, that we in fact disbelieve.

Why should Muslims care? Many will not. For them it would not matter whether we add to Allah or divide Allah into thirds (for I'm sure that those who don't want to deal with the nuances of theology will project it in one of those two formulas), they will see such beliefs as shirk either way. So be it. I can live with that. But if one is going to object to go beyond that, if one is going actively critique the Christian faith, as many on this forum understandably like to do, you would think that they should at least take the time to find out what it is that we actually believe (and get those beliefs correct) before beginning their critique of it.

Yes, Yusuf, I do believe that providing a critique of something that is not based on the facts but misinformation is acting out of ignorance. And I keep asking this question because I want to understand why? Why people that I know not to be ignorant people, would choose ignorance in this case when they don't act that way in any other?

 

[Imam]

that shows a lack of understanding of what the Christian concept of the Trinity really is all about.Perhaps that understanding of the trinity is too nuanced for those outside of the Christian faith to fully comprehend

The trinity is not only too nuanced for those outside of the Christian faith to comprehend ,but those inside as well

There is nothing to understand since the entire concept is preposterous on its face ..Yes, Jesus is God; no he is man. Since that makes no sense, it is immediately changed to: No, he is the god/man, man and god simultaneously. And since that makes no sense either, many of those outside and inside the Christian faith are candid enough to admit it's a "mystery" that can't be understood by anybody. It has to be taken on pure faith..

Many apologists not only admit there are no proof texts for the doctrine but freely admit the entire concept is incomprehensible. Support for this assertion is not hard to find.

On page 168 in 508 Answers to Bible Questions apologist M.R. DeHaan states that, "The Trinity, that is, three persons in one is a mystery which is revealed in the Bible but cannot be understood by the human mind. Since man is finite, and God is infinite, this is one of those things which must be accepted by faith, even though it cannot be reasoned out. The Trinity cannot be explained but it must be believed because the Bible teaches it throughout."

On page 55 of Basic Theology professor Ryrie of Dallas Theological Seminary alleges that, "Even with all the discussion and delineation that we attempt in relation to the Trinity, we must acknowledge that it is in the final analysis
a mystery. We accept all the data as truth even though they go beyond our
understanding."

On page 25 in Essential Christianity apologist Walter Martin says, "No
man can fully explain the Trinity, though in every age scholars have propounded theories and advanced hypotheses to explore this mysterious Biblical teaching. But despite the worthy efforts of these scholars, the Trinity is still largely incomprehensible to the mind of man."

On page 19 in The Bible Has the Answer apologists Morris and Clark state
that, "the mystery of the Trinity is beyond the capacity of our finite and limited minds to comprehend." Later, on page 41 in the same book Morris and Clark state that, "the mystery of the divine-human nature of Christ is beyond our finite understanding.... The Bible simply presents as fact the great truth that Jesus Christ was both God and man. It does not try to explain how this could be, because it is inexplicable. It must be apprehended on faith alone,...."

If you'll note, seeker ,the fundamentalists make no attempt to defend the concept rationally. Believers are told to believe it without understanding
simply because the Bible says so.

On pages 112 and 113 in Almah or Young Woman apologist Lawlor says, "All the difficulties and problems surrounding the mystery of the person of
Christ will never be solved. The great difficulty is that of understanding how the Lord could have but one personality when he possessed two real natures, divine and human. How can these natures be united in the one Person? This is the "mystery of godliness.... There are some matters that are beyond us, which we shall never totally comprehend."

"Totally comprehend"! Any Christian would be happy to be able to comprehend even a minute part thereof. Lawlor concludes, "we must finally fall upon our faces before the mystery of the eternal, almighty god in Christ, having come in flesh, and confess that we cannot explain Him." "Explain him"!
Any Christian would be happy to even understand
the Trinity, much less explain it. Talk about blind, unquestioning faith!

The concept makes no sense; they admit it makes no sense, but we are to believe it, regardless. The problem lies not in the fact that it can't be understood by me but that it can't be understood by anyone, period.

In the thick tome entitled Catholic Dogma, the catholic apologist Ludwig Ott says on page 75, "The dogma of the Trinity is, in fact, beyond reason.... Human reason cannot fathom the mystery of the Blessed Trinity even after the dogma has been revealed by God."(The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy)



in light of such previous quotes,you see seeker, your incessant argument that Muslim deny the Trinity because They can't understand is without merit.....



May be you are superior to those apologist who have gone before,and able to explain the mysterious dogma?

Let's follow

If anything it is a division of Allah into parts, not adding partners

your (divided Allah )scenario!! means you have a being within a being? How could a being be within another being? Parasites live within other beings but they are still separate and distinct. They are in no sense the same being as you say God and Jesus are.

numerous statements asserting the unity, the indivisibility of God, eg,


"...the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him" (Deut. 4:35); "...for there is none like thee, neither is there any god beside thee" (2 Sam. 7:22); "I am God and there is none like me" (Isa. 46:9). Apparently Jesus and the Holy Ghost are like him, since they are God also.....

Doesn't The creed say: GOD FROM GOD, VERY GOD FROM VERY GOD? One God from another God and very God from very God is certainly more than one God. Does not *separate and distinct* mean each a God?

You have three distinct entities all of whom are God. That's three gods and the word"persons"(now you call it parts) can't be used to hide that fact.

Now a basic lesson of the meaning of Shirk according to Islam ,it is obvious you missed the meaning:

Does Monotheism means to believe that God is one?

no .....

Monotheism has another deeper meaning according to Islam:

It is not only believing in one God but directing the worship,prayer straight to him alone ,and never participate any material form (human,Idol,things of nature,priests etc...) in the process of worship,prayer ,which none of their business but God alone.......


Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

If you direct your prayer to Jesus who is Sitting At the Right Hand Of God and who can do nothing of himself (John 5:30), and believing that he can answer your prayer ,then it doesn't need a scientific discovery to know that such act is taking a partner with God !!, and your own mouth that condemns you ....

 

[MustafaMc]

Christians would contend that we agree with the injunction not to associate partners with Allah/God and that we don't do that. Yet, most Muslims think that we do. Why?

From our perspective, Christians associate partners with Allah by saying that the human being born to Mary, Jesus, is at the same time God and the Son of God is clear and indisputable shirk or associating partners with the One God, Allah. The Qur'an repeatedly states that, "They disbelieve (in the Oneness of Allah) who say that Jesus is the Son of God." For you to question, "Why?" indicates to me that you have not read our posts for understanding but rather to have something to counter or to argue with.

Of course I know why, Muslims perceive the Christians concept of the Trinity as associating partners with Allah. But that shows a lack of understanding of what the Christian concept of the Trinity really is all about.

It is actually quite simple, Jesus was a man who worshipped God. It is Christians who err in equating Jesus with God.

I am not sure whether it is the Qur'an or if it is Islamic scholars who provide the explicit teaching that the Christian faith is one of associating partners with Allah because our understanding of the monotheisitic God includes the understanding of him as a triune (but singular) being.

...as I have said the Qur'an clearly points out the issue.

It ascribes to us something to us, that we believe in associating partners with God, that we in fact disbelieve.

So you deny that the human Jesus was also God? If not, then we see correctly.

But if one is going to object to go beyond that, if one is going actively critique the Christian faith, as many on this forum understandably like to do, you would think that they should at least take the time to find out what it is that we actually believe (and get those beliefs correct) before beginning their critique of it.

You have yet to point out where we mis-portray the Christian faith.

 

[MustafaMc]

A passage that comes to my mind is Qur'an 2:120-121 The Jews and the Christians will never be pleased with you, until you follow their faith. O Muhammad, tell them : "Allah's guidance is the only guidance;" and if after all the knowledge you have received, you yield to their desires, there shall be none to protect you or help you from the wrath of Allah. Those to whom We have given the book and who read it as it ought to be read, they are the ones who believe in it; as for those who reject it, they are for sure the losers.

 

[mkh4JC]

Any Christian would be happy to even understand
the Trinity, much less explain it. Talk about blind, unquestioning faith!

The concept makes no sense; they admit it makes no sense, but we are to believe it, regardless. The problem lies not in the fact that it can't be understood by me but that it can't be understood by anyone, period.

in light of such previous quotes,you see seeker, your incessant argument that Muslim deny the Trinity because They can't understand is without merit....

May be you are superior to those apologist who have gone before,and able to explain the mysterious dogma?

This is not entirely true. While I believe that if there is a God there would be things about him that surpass our understanding, and as a Bible believing Christian the Trinity would fall in that category in some respects, you can still come to some kind of understanding. Here's a passage in the Old Testament no less.

'And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.' Genesis 1: 26

Graceseeker once told me what the use of the word us means, it doesn't mean many gods. He can explain it better than I can, but I want to focus on what I bolded.

So therefore: God=The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit; human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body.

So we are triune beings and are still one, just as God is a triune being and is still one.

 

[KAding]

I am. I am curious as to why a Muslim thinks that by virtue of having read the Qur'an that they know what Christians believe with regard to God, Jesus, the Bible, or anything else?

They know at best what the Qur'an says about Christians beliefs, but if these are not actually Christian beliefs, then they in fact only know what the Qur'an tells them Christian beliefs are supposed to be, not what Christian beliefs in fact truly are.

Why trust the Qur'an to tell you what either an individual Christian or Christianity as a whole believes over what Christians themselves say with regard to their beliefs?

Well, surely you can't blame Muslims for believing Gods word (the Qu'ran) over your word?

On the other hand, perhaps the Qu'ran is just a bit outdated. After all it was sketching Christianity in the 7th century. Since Christianity is a corrupted and man-made religion, it would be a miracle if it hadn't changed in fourteen centuries.

 

[MustafaMc]

This is not entirely true. While I believe that if there is a God there would be things about him that surpass our understanding, and as a Bible believing Christian the Trinity would fall in that category in some respects, you can still come to some kind of understanding.

Of course there is a God and we know of Him only the portion that He has revealed

So therefore: God=The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit; human beings=the spirit, the soul, and the body.

So we are triune beings and are still one, just as God is a triune being and is still one.

Oh yeah, just like me, myself and I.

I never knew that "I" could sit at the right hand of "me", but then again "I" often talk to "myself". Sorta confusing when you think about it, huh?

 

[mkh4JC]

.

I never knew that "I" could sit at the right hand of "me", but then again "I" often talk to "myself". Sorta confusing when you think about it, huh?

As I said, it stands to reason that there would be things about God that surpass our understanding. But as I illustrated, we as human beings are still made in the image and likeness of God, and you can still come to some kind of understanding, though of course not all. Jesus also said this: 'I wll not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.' John 14: 18-20.

And he also said the following about those who come to him: 'Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.' Matthew 18: 3. Not meaning you have to be converted and come to Christ while you are a child, but as one, in terms of your mindset.

 

[YusufNoor]

Yusuf's answer to me provides you the answer to your question. He asserts

Christians would contend that we agree with the injunction not to associate partners with Allah/God and that we don't do that. Yet, most Muslims think that we do. Why?

Of course I know why, Muslims perceive the Christians concept of the Trinity as associating partners with Allah. But that shows a lack of understanding of what the Christian concept of the Trinity really is all about. If anything it is a division of Allah into parts, not adding partners (though I would contend it is not that either). You might object to that as well, but please object for the right reasons. I am not sure whether it is the Qur'an or if it is Islamic scholars who provide the explicit teaching that the Christian faith is one of associating partners with Allah because our understanding of the monotheisitic God includes the understanding of him as a triune (but singular) being. Perhaps that understanding is too nuanced for those outside of the Christian faith to fully comprehend, but the whatever the source the understanding presented of Christian beliefs to the Islamic world does not correctly state our beliefs. It ascribes to us something to us, that we believe in associating partners with God, that we in fact disbelieve.

Why should Muslims care? Many will not. For them it would not matter whether we add to Allah or divide Allah into thirds (for I'm sure that those who don't want to deal with the nuances of theology will project it in one of those two formulas), they will see such beliefs as shirk either way. So be it. I can live with that. But if one is going to object to go beyond that, if one is going actively critique the Christian faith, as many on this forum understandably like to do, you would think that they should at least take the time to find out what it is that we actually believe (and get those beliefs correct) before beginning their critique of it.

Yes, Yusuf, I do believe that providing a critique of something that is not based on the facts but misinformation is acting out of ignorance. And I keep asking this question because I want to understand why? Why people that I know not to be ignorant people, would choose ignorance in this case when they don't act that way in any other?

OK,

Yes, Yusuf, I do believe that providing a critique of something that is not based on the facts but misinformation is acting out of ignorance. And I keep asking this question because I want to understand why? Why people that I know not to be ignorant people, would choose ignorance in this case when they don't act that way in any other?

Using this comment as the standard for this post, lets examine the issue of IGNORANCE:

Well to start of with, you DON’T KNOW what the Qur’an says about Christianity, so ANYTIME that you complain about what the Qur’an says about Christianity even though you DON’T KNOW what it says, you are, and I quote:

providing a critique of something that is not based on the facts but misinformation is acting out of ignorance.

Additionally, you DON’T KNOW what the Messenger of Allah[pbuh] says about Christianity, so ANYTIME that you complain about what the Messenger of Allah[pbuh] says about Christianity even though you DON’T KNOW what it says, you are, and I quote:

providing a critique of something that is not based on the facts but misinformation is acting out of ignorance

.

And furthermore, you DON’T KNOW what Islam, in total, says about Christianity, so ANYTIME that you complain about what Islam, in total, says about Christianity even though you DON’T KNOW what it says, you are, and I quote:

providing a critique of something that is not based on the facts but misinformation is acting out of ignorance.

i'm seeing a pattern here, how about you?

AND seeing as you DON'T KNOW the Islamic definition of Shirk, YET YOU STILL want to continue your little conniption over it, WE MUST deduce that you are, once again:

providing a critique of something that is not based on the facts but misinformation is acting out of ignorance.

we shall, In Sha'a Allah, attempt to provide you with some guidance in the near future so you may, with Allah's help, stop:

acting out of ignorance

until then, cheers...

 

[Imam]

'And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:


.

Does the phrase, "Let us make man in our image," indicate plurality of persons involved in creation?

Knapp, Prof. from mid 19th century Theology, p. 93. It (Elohim,) is derived from an Arabic word, which signifies to reverence, to honor, to worship. Hence, it comes to pass that it is frequently applied to kings, magistrates, judges, and others to whom reverence is shown, and who are regarded as the representatives of the Deity upon earth. Psalm 82:6. Exo.. 7:1...The plural of this word, Elohim, though it denotes but one subject, is appropriately used to designate Jehovah by way of eminence. In fact, many theologians have thought they perceived an allusion to the doctrine of the Trinity, though they have no sufficient ground for supposing that this doctrine was known at so early a period. And without resorting to this supposition, the application of this plural name to a singular subject may be explained from an idiom of the ancient oriental and some other languages, by which anything great or eminent was expressed in the plural number, (pluralis dignitatis, or majestaticus.) Accordingly, Eloha, (the singular,) augustus, [majestic,] may be considered as the positive degree, of which Elohim, ( the plural,) augustissimus, [most majestic,] is the superlative.


Moses Stuart, Biblical Repository, July, 1835, p. 102,103. "Nor does the appeal to the plural forms of expression in the Old Testament justify the modes of representation in question: [viz. society, covenanting transactions, and deliberative counsel, and the like, in the Godhead itself;] such as ‘Let us make man ; Let us go down and see; The man is become as one of us; Who will go for us?’ All these modes of expression seem naturally to spring from the almost continual use of the plural form Elohim, as the name of God. But he who has well studied the genius of the Hebrew language, must know that this often makes an intensive signification of words by employing the plural of number ; and particularly that this is the fact in regard to words designating dominion, lordship, etc. Such is the case not only with Elohim, but also with many others, even when they designate single objects. Elohim, is for the most part as much as to say, supreme God. But if any still insist on the argument to be drawn from this, as evincing of itself a plurality in the Godhead, what shall be said of its use in Psalm 45:6,7 where first the Son and then the Father is each respectively called Elohim? Is there then a plurality of persons in the Son, and in the Father too?




Theophilus, theologian of mid 19th century: "This language is understood to express determination, ‘And God determined to make man in his own image, after his own likeness,’ without supposing that he also intended to teach us thereby the mode of his own existence...When a man is about to do an important thing, and wishes to proceed with deliberation and act with discretion, he considers with himself, and perhaps speaks audibly : "Let us consider--let us see what to do." ...but in so saying, he does not intend to tell us anything as to the origin or mode of his existence. He is deliberating so as to come to a wise determination. God does not, like man, need to deliberate, in order to act wisely--at least, he has not told us so; but he makes himself and his doings known to us in language conformed to the manner of men; leaving it for common sense to decide as to the meaning of what he says of himself, for the express purpose of being understood-- not for the purpose of casting a mist before our eyes so that we cannot see what he means.



Even Hebrew kings continually in scripture refer to themselves with plural pronouns.
2Chr. 10:9 And he said unto them, What advice give ye that we may return answer to this people, which have spoken to me, saying, Ease somewhat the yoke that thy father did put upon us?

1Kgs. 12:9 And he said unto them, What counsel give ye that we may answer this people, who have spoken to me, saying, Make the yoke which thy father did put upon us lighter?



God was telling us no more or no less about himself by using the pronoun us than that it was He, a great Creator, a sole individual, that made man deliberately, as He, God, determined to do in the accomplishing of his eternal purpose.(Robert E. as.bin)

At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.' John 14: 18-20..

"One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Ephesians 4:6


"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."Ephesians 4:4

 

[Grace Seeker]

Does the phrase, "Let us make man in our image," indicate plurality of persons involved in creation?

Short answer, no, it does not. At least not by itself it does not. One of the words used to speak of God in the Tanakh is Elohim, which as you have noted is a plural noun. But I must take exception with Prof. Knapp when he says:

Knapp, Prof. from mid 19th century Theology, p. 93. It (Elohim,) is derived from an Arabic word...,

Given that the use of the Hebrew term Elohim in the Tanakh predates the origin of Arabic as a language, it would be extremely hard for it to derive from any Arabic word.


Yusuf, I admit that when I have to speak about Islam that there is much I don't know and therefore I do sometimes speak out of ignorace. That is indeed one of the reasons I come here to ask questions and learn. And it is also one of the reason I try not to tell Muslims what they believe. I have yet to have anyone satisfactorily answer my question as to why it is that so many Muslims think that they can tell Christians what it is that Christians believe rather than letting Christians speak for themselves.

The closest has been KAdinng who asked:

Well, surely you can't blame Muslims for believing Gods word (the Qu'ran) over your word?

And surely, as Muslims believe the Qur'an to be the word of God, it makes sense to accept it as authoritative. Of course, it is an element of faith that it is indeed the word of God. If it tells you that I believe something which I do in fact not believe, then perhaps it isn't the record you have believed it to have been.

Or, and this is important that you really hear this,....
Perhaps the Qur'an is not itself wrong, but people have misunderstood what it is saying.

So, let's check what the Qur'an says:

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

Sura 5:116-117

Does this verse actually say that Christians worship Mary as a god?
Does this say that Christians worship gods (plural)?
Does this say anything about what/who Christians actually worship at all?

So, where in the Qur'an does it say that Christian worship is false?
Where does the Qur'an describe Christian beliefs as "shirk"?

Indeed, I do understand that joining others with Allah is what is meant by "shirk". And the Qur'an specifically says that one should NOT do this:

Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious;- (4:36)

Say: "Shall I take for my protector any other than Allah, the Maker of the heavens and the earth? And He it is that feedeth but is not fed." Say: "Nay! but I am commanded to be the first of those who bow to Allah (in Islam), and be not thou of the company of those who join gods with Allah." (6:14)

Where in the Qur'an does it say that Christians do this?



The Qur'an does speak of things that Allah does not do, for instance:

'And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord: He has taken neither a wife nor a son. (72:3)

But, such ideas of God taking either are just as foreign to Christianity as they are to Islam. Christian belief in the incarnation is neither about God taking Mary for his wife nor Jesus for his son. Neither biology nor adoptionism should be assumed, please do not project them on us, for both are specific heresies that the church rejected centuries ago.




And the Qur'an talks about the Trinity, but it's description of the Trinity is not a Trinity that Christians actually believe in (Surah 5:73):

YUSUFALI: They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

PICKTHAL: They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no Allah save the One Allah. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

SHAKIR: Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one Allah, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.

Not one of these interpretions of the Qur'an properly states the Christians understanding of what is meant by Trinity when Christians refer to the term, so who is it that the Qur'an is talking about as these blasphemers and disbelievers, because it can't be Christians. Christians DO NOTsay that Allah is one of three; Christians DO NOT say that Allah is the third of three; and Christians DO NOT say that Allah is the third person of the three. That is not a correct understanding of the Trinity from a Christian point of view. Since the Qur'an can never be wrong, surely the Qur'an must then be talking about some other group of people besides Christians. Who is it?