Threat of Hell, Promise of Heavan

[Trumble]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

similarly when the person reflects on everything around him/her - they see the sign's of Allaah Almighty.

No, they see signs of what they expect or want to see, which may or may not be Allaah as muslims perceive Him to be... mainly depending on whether the person doing the reflecting is a muslim(Christian/Jew) or not.

The fact that there is a Creator is much more easier to understand than believing that there isn't a Creator whatsoever. It goes against logic. And this is why the majority of the world believes in this, most just differ on how He should be worshipped, or not.

I am quite happy to accept, for sake of argument at least, that there is/was a Creator. Although I'd be interested to see that 'logic' set out.. the 'chair' (or watch, as it more traditionally is) argument is a very old chestnut and not logical proof of anything. All that aside, the point at issue is not whether the Creator should be worshipped, it is why He requires worship which must be assumed if hell is the inevitable consequence of not doing so.

 

[Joe98]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

Age old questions........ to be answered upon our incumbent death.............

Except of course to those billions of religious people who believe they already know the answer.

 

[Avicenna]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

Except of course to those billions of religious people who believe they already know the answer.

Plus the milions of atheists who think they know the answer as well.

 

[*charisma*]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

All three of the Abrahamic religions works this way. Dont you think this notion is a bit infantile? Why do humans have to believe in God? Why would I go to hell if I rationally cannot feel His presence?

You don't have to believe in God. Neither are there scientific facts to prove that there is a God, its purely a faith.

Let me speak hypothetically. If there were a God, would you expect him to forgive you for not believing in Him? To you He never existed, all of a sudden you're going to want to be forgiven because you were ignorant of what faith was or how to believe? That is very unfair for everyone.

Faith, especially the faith of Islam is something for EVERYONE. It's for the blind because they cannot see, so whether you can prove there is a God or not to a seeing person, in the end they still have to use faith. It's for the young, because it's easier for them to believe there is a God and grow with morals and values than if they believed there was no God and lived a corrupt life. It's for the old because it's never modernized, they can relate with everyone else of all ages. It's for the mentally retarded, mothers, fathers, women, men, infants, teenagers, children, blacks, whites, latinos, asians..I can go on in explicate details with different examples, but you get the point.

Those who don't believe in a deity, do mostly because there aren't hard core proofs/evidences. However, think back 1400 years ago or even before then, if everything in the Quran had direct proofs that a human wouldn't have possibly known about, how many of them would've believed in it?

If it said in the Quran that water was made up of H2O, and water will be found on Mars, so on and so forth, I can about gaurantee that no one will undertand what they were reading and it would be another corrupted and changed religion to suit the lives of those in that time IF people even agreed to believe in it.

I find it weird how you would ask about the punishments of those who don't believe, rather than the rewards of those who would believe. Why would you want to be amongst the believers and be rewarded just like them, when you were the one pushing yourself as much as you could away from what their beliefs were?

regards,

 

[جوري]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

Except of course to those billions of religious people who believe they already know the answer.

Yes! we BELIEVE we know the answers...... to us it is to be confirmed upon death and hopefully we will rejoice eternally in the Gardens of bliss........ for others who didn't prepare...... a surprise, a moot point, and the answer one way or the other......... as Moses (PBUH) stated, all foolishness will be expiated with death.......... sort of like the teacher who warned you all semester of your surprise quiz and some students called it bluff, as they showed up every day and there was no test....... one day, end of term comes as time never stands still for laughter and play and idle joys........and those who weren't prepared FAIL......... and miserably........ unfortunately there is no surmising this failure......... there are NO DO OVERS once it is over it is over!

 

[Woodrow]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

It seems difficult for some people to believe that there are consequences for not believing in Allah(swt) God(swt). Do those same people believe there is no consequences for driving 80 miles per hour in a 30MPH zone, just because they did not see the speed sign?

 

[Joe98]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

"Way of Life - Secret"

Until you change that you're comments have no meaning.

 

[جوري]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

Until you change that you're comments have no meaning.

The same for your "you're comments"? :rollseyes

 

[Joe98]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

Do those same people believe there is no consequences for driving 80 miles per hour in a 30MPH zone, just because they did not see the speed sign?

I already follow the road rules. It works like this: I drive within the speed limit. The limit is based on common sense for that stretch of road. And everybody is safe.

Religion invents some other road rule which is not based on common sense. So no, I didn't see the religious sign.

 

[Woodrow]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

I already follow the road rules. It works like this: I drive within the speed limit.
The limit is based on common sense for that stretch of road. And everybody is safe.

Religion invents some other road rule which is not based on common sense. So no, I didn't see the religious sign.

All depends on perspective.

I already follow the Qur'anic rules. It works like this: I live within the limit.
The limit is based on common sense for this life. And everybody is safe.



You and I have our own opinions and our own reasons, I suspect that we will both continue to each view other as having misguided opinions.

Fortunatly we have enough sense to express our differences without name calling.

 

[starfortress]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

Most of human believe in something only base on a logical explanation.Unfortunately, today many of the "smartest" people of this world deny the existence of God,but still many on this world will believe the god existance after they fall to illness or had a great difficulty in their life,i mean something that could make they to think out of their narrow mind,beyond the logical and rational thinking.Then they will know there is a greater power out there.

I give an examples,how come some good looking man will fall in love with someone who doesn't have it.How come 300 Muslims defeating the over 1000 Quraish in Badr War.How come a man still want to marry his HIV carrier fiance.What kinds of thinking could drive this to happen,thats are the same feeling and thinking we feel in beleiving in God.There is no logical explanation can be given.Off course that was a greatest challenge for them who want to be the believer in other word the submitters(Muslims)

In my opinion by nature all humans who have a relief,angry,love,grateful and many other types of feeling should also have the kind of feeling in believing in God.Unfortunately all the normal person already having that feelings,only arrogance,ignorance and ego makes them still didn't want to believe in God.They claimed only to think and act base on rational and logical judgement,but they still do the irrational action like a man who sacrifices his life, health, or wealth to the attainment of his love for something.

No one want to force the unbelievers to postrate toward God,we only carry on the mesage that given to us,the rest lying at their hand,with the thinking capacity they have and the sign in front of them it should be clear.The strength of Islam as a philosophy and as a way of life is that it does not separate humans material life from spiritual life, and that it seeks a balance between the two dimensions,if someone really want to know god existance he/she must to start thinking in both way.

The problem happen when many smart person:giggling: try to reduce human thinking capacity to the lower point.Reduced merely to the level of Psychical and material existence, Man becomes a machine, or a mere animal at best.But think of a machine that rebels against being a machine or of an animal that refuses to be an animal. That is what man is! What is it that makes him rebellious, angry, disappointed, frightened or hopeful? What is his dimension that gives him his imagination, his artistic genius, his creative urge? Why does he have nightmares and sweet dreams?Can someone who dont believe in god give the answer?:rollseyes

"Who created me, and it is He Who guides me;

"Who gives me food and drink,

"And when I am ill, it is He Who cures me;

"Who will cause me to die, and then to life (again);

"And who, I hope, will forgive me my faults on the day of Judgment.

"O my Lord! bestow wisdom on me, and join me with the righteous;

Quran (26:78-83)

Happy Eid Fitr to all Muslims.

 

[- Qatada -]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

No, they see signs of what they expect or want to see, which may or may not be Allaah as muslims perceive Him to be... mainly depending on whether the person doing the reflecting is a muslim(Christian/Jew) or not.

It doesn't depend on what religion you follow, nearly every religion believes in a Creator, no matter what they call Him, whether it's Allaah, God, Dios, Dieu etc. They know that it was this Creator who made everything, even agnostics realise this. The main difference like i said before was that they differ on how He should be worshipped, or if He should be worshipped Alone or not.

I am quite happy to accept, for sake of argument at least, that there is/was a Creator. Although I'd be interested to see that 'logic' set out.. the 'chair' (or watch, as it more traditionally is) argument is a very old chestnut and not logical proof of anything. All that aside, the point at issue is not whether the Creator should be worshipped, it is why He requires worship which must be assumed if hell is the inevitable consequence of not doing so.

The issue is why He created us, and that is so we worship Him, Almighty.

Realising that someone can make something is much easier than believing that no-one made the thing at all.

If a person can't believe that simple fact, then they are the one's going against logic because you don't have to see how something is made to believe that it was made by someone.



The consequence of not worshipping the Creator is that the person will end up in hellfire. The reason for this is because the person is rejecting all the blessings that Allaah has bestowed upon that person. One of the root words of kufr/disbelief is to be ungrateful.


If you feel that you earn all the money you got, imagine you never had your health, imagine you were blind. Imagine you had no food, and every single seed the farmer sowed - the fruit never grew, and Allaah withheld the rain from the clouds.

Who would get you food, water? Would you be able to survive, and for how long?


But instead, Allaah allow's us to dwell in this world to reflect, and contemplate on the creation. Why don't you travel in the lands and ask yourself if all this was created by itself?


Ask yourself, what is death. Why do the best of people, who have the most wealth die? Why do the most evil among the people die? No matter what they had in this world - they lose it anyway, so striving for this world only causes sadness doesn't it? If Allaah can create us once, isn't it easy for Him to bring us back to life again?

Isn't everyone responsible for their actions? This is the reason for the day of judgement.



Allaah Almighty creates laws for the benefit of mankind, worshipping doesn't always just mean praying or fasting, but the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said:

'The best among you in Islam are those with the best manners, so long as they develop a sense of understanding.' " (Bukhari #286)


​

If you feel that islamic law has always been evil, and against people of other faiths, try looking at the effect it had on people once the muslims were in authority:

http://www.load-islam.com/indepth.php?topic_id=12


People who desire this world, and strive for this world only - they will die, and people like Hitler won't get away from their crimes. The one's who obey their Creator will also be recompensed for what they did. Every soul will bear it's own burden and no-one will be treated unjustly, this has been the same message from all the messengers of Allaah.

Nay, is he not acquainted with what is in the Books of Moses-

And of Abraham who fulfilled his engagements?-

Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another;

That man can have nothing but what he strives for

That (the fruit of) his striving will soon come in sight:


Then will he be rewarded with a reward complete;

That to thy Lord is the final Goal;

That it is He Who granteth Laughter and Tears;

That it is He Who granteth Death and Life;



That He did create in pairs,- male and female,

From a seed when lodged (in its place);

That He hath promised a Second Creation (Raising of the Dead);

That it is He Who giveth wealth and satisfaction;


(Qur'an Surah Najm 53: 36-48)
​

Allaah Almighty know's best.



anyway, like the aussies say, g'day mate! [just felt like sayin that lol]



Peace.






​

 

[duskiness]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

The association of that sensed presence with the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God is not essential, however; its just associated with that by followers of those religions because its either the only concept they have, or the only one they choose to acknowledge. A 'New Age' type, for example, or a Taoist, would associate that perception with something completely different. The original question, therefore, stands as a good one. Even if the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God exists, why 'eternal d*mnation' just because you don't believe in that specific concept of God?

I'm not sure if you should draw draw this lines so sharply. Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition of speaking of God is really huge.
There is via negativa
There was Meister Eckhart, who even for Buddhist sounds like a buddhist. (God as void/nothingness)
In some Chinese translation Logos it changed into Tao:

In the beginning was the Tao, and the Tao was with God, and the Tao was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not comprehended it.... . The true Light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, yet the world knew Him not. He came to His own, and His own received Him not. But to all who received Him, He gave power to become children of God, who were born... of God. And the Tao became flesh and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld His glory.

As for hell/salvation: i hope that those who reject christianity (what i think in many cases is just christians fault) and even God follow that " true Light that enlightens every man was coming into the world."

Whoever loves his brother lives in the light

(1john 2;10) and

Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love

(1john4; 7-8). My fellow Christians may accuse me of "watering down" Gospel. And I'm probably doing it. So putting scriptures aside, I trust that God has his ways of guiding you, even if your mind rejects idea of "God". I just trust that He want "hurt" you in th end

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

All three of the Abrahamic religions works this way. Dont you think this notion is a bit infantile? Why do humans have to believe in God? Why would I go to hell if I rationally cannot feel His presence?

Let me put it another way: Deny creation and you become in conflict with yourself... because you are a creation. Is that not Hell?

Regardless of the variety of traditions used to express this principle - the principle itself does not change.

Ninth Scribe

 

[snakelegs]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

All three? Jews believe in a very different concept then what you think his hell and there is no burning. Righteous non-Jews can go to heaven.

good point. would it be fair to say that judaism places much more importance on this world, than it does the next?

 

[mas]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

i will tell u a little story about it
well one time this guy was mulism , he left to the uk for like 5 years then he came back . he told his people that he dont believe in god . anyways the imam comes and slap him in the face
he was like did u feel
GUY:yes
did u see the pain
he was like no
so basically u could feel god but u cant see him
im just telling u the story to just think about
salam

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

i will tell u a little story about it
well one time this guy was mulism , he left to the uk for like 5 years then he came back . he told his people that he dont believe in god . anyways the imam comes and slap him in the face
he was like did u feel
GUY:yes
did u see the pain
he was like no
so basically u could feel god but u cant see him
im just telling u the story to just think about
salam

That was a great story! Thank you for sharing it

Ninth Scribe

 

[Umar001]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

Isnt it haram to slap in the face?

 

[Pygoscelis]

It is my belief that the threat of heall and promise of heaven are only as effective as the belief in them. So this threat and promise are useful to keep believers from questioning but useless to bring in new converts.

If you don't believe hell exists, being told you will go there unless you change your belief is just going to leave you wondering...

 

[Malaikah]

Yeh thats true- God only helps those who want help. And those who want help will appreciate having a strong driving force to do good and abstain from evil, namely the threat of hell and the promise of paradise.

A disbeliever doesnt believe in hell. But that doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

So.. what is your point here exactly? :?