truthseeker63's Corner [Clarification about Islam]

Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

truthseeker63 said:
What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime is this even possible ?
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God is immortal . Man is mortal . Jesus cant be mortal and immortal at the same time
 
Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

A truthfull answer and the answer of a peacemaker , and Christ said "blessed are the peacemakers" would be " I believe that full understanding of the nature of God is beyond human comprehension and that I believe God is capable of anything except doing Evil and being Unjust, so for me to say it is impossable for God to be both human and God at the same time would be to put limits on God's Power but as a Muslim I do not believe this to be true. As a Muslim I believe that God is one being ; one person Allah and that Jesus was his prophet " then rather than get into a fruitless discussion about the Trinity you could start to explore the meaning of the great commandment of Christ , to love God and to love your neighbour. And how the world could be transformed if we all practiced this. Of course you can reassure yourself that your christian friends will be Ok if the follow this commandment truely as will you.

Of course as a Christian my beliefs about Christ is different from yours but I can still respect that you hold your beliefs provided you are trying to live by the spirit of Christ's great command even if you worship only the father. But like Christ I would have no respect for you if all you live for is quoting the Law and living by the word of the law rather than the spirit.

Ps I find it difficult to be a peacemaker as i'm a sinner, but i do try :-)

Love and Respect.
 
Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

3rddec said:
" I believe that full understanding of the nature of God is beyond human comprehension and that I believe God is capable of anything except doing Evil and being Unjust, so for me to say it is impossable for God to be both human and God at the same time would be to put limits on God's Power
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Limits on God's power ? You dont have common sense . How can God create another Uncreated God ? so God cant do everything, your understandig of God's power is totally flawed .
 
Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

I never sugested he created an uncreated God ; I suggest you read what I said and tell me which part you would tell God he can't do; thats not to say he did do.

Love and respect
 
Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

I found this I think it makes sense.

The following was sent to me by Haleem; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.​
Response to Mainstream Christianity: The Nature of Christ
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The Wrested Scriptures Page lists passages commonly used to defend the erroneous views and outlines the correct understanding of these passages.In referring to 'Mainstream Christianity', we speak of the principal Christian groups, such as Catholics, Baptists, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, etc.Please excuse the directness of the sections below; due to the nature of the media, we felt it was best.
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Mainstream Christian Teaching

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The bulk of all Christianity teaches unequivocally that Jesus is God. This claim is made without qualification. Typically, it is said that Jesus is 100% man and 100% God: that Jesus was fully God, and never ceased to be God while on earth. And usually, when it really gets down to the nitty-gritty, it is said the whole issue (the Trinity) is a mystery.
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Inherent Flaws:

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The fundamental truth of the Bible is that God is One. Any teaching that in any way appears to deviate from or undermime this profound truth must be very firmly substantiated. The doctrine of the Trinity pretends to be such a teaching, yet it is entirely absent from the entire Old Testament. This doesn't make sense.

Mortality and Immortality are mutually exclusive characteristics. If Jesus is God, he couldn't have really died, for God is immortal by nature. Likewise, if Jesus died, he couldn't really be God, for God cannot die. Immortality is not a fluctuating quality! A being is either mortal or immortal. You can't have it both ways with this. Either Christ died, and he is mortal, or he's God and can't die. Pick one alternative, as holding both is simply untenable. Traditional Christians typically respond to this point with the idea stated above in the introduction, that Jesus was fully human and fully God. But look at the next point.


http://www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_nature.htm

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Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

EDIT: please delete
 
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Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

Of course If you do understand the full natureGods power, ability and being I will have no option but to defer to your superior power as you are obviously God, as God is the only person that can fully comprehend God. And the titlle Al - Qadir ( The All Able ) doesn't apply as you have said there are some things he can't do.

Love and Respect
 
Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

Guest fellow there is a difference in giving yourself up to Death at the hands of others to save people ( Martyr ) and committing Suicide. There is nothing to reconcile here. Also the christian belief is that Adam caused the fall of man so no mere man could reconcile man with God again. We believe he did this through incarnating in Jesus and sacrificing himself to pay for our sins and establish a new covanent between God and Man. I understand you dont believe this but this thread and question is not the correct place to continue this discussion. You should start another thread if you want to discuss something different to the start questionn

Love and Respect
 
Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

Intresting Truth seeker it seems you asked a Question that you all ready had an answer too as I didnt see Haleems post in the Forum I can only assume he posted it to you privately and didnt feel like posting it directly into the Forum to enlighten the rest of us. As I don't know when it was posted to you , I can only assume it was posted to you in the last 3 hours ; how fortutious. I am thinking of renaming my self Truth Sayer as whatever I post will be the truth from my heart. There will be no deception in my behaviour or responces. And if i want to start a discussion on the Trinity , I will ask a question directly. I will leave you to your never ending circle. I gave an honest answer to the question asked I hope it was asked in honesty too. My contribution to this thread is ended but im happy to discuss Trinity in a thread clearly designed for that.


Love and Respect
 
Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

3rddec said:
to enlighten the rest of us
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I am not sure you have a desire to be enlightened I have given you chronicles worth of alterations/fabrications/addendum in your bible as per your request yesterday and you've neither read them nor refuted them-- we call that intellectual dishonesty and you're intellectually dishonest often I suppose you're hoping to spam enough that folks will tire of responding all together and I think you can indeed succeed in that since not everyone is apt as glorifying absurdities with a response.... You'd call yourself a 'truth sayer' perhaps a deluded one many would agree.. Why not work on all the atheists you have on your back yard or better yet the Jews for they don't even acknowledge the object of your adoration not only as a man let alone a god that was sent to them before injecting worthless comments where it is neither merited nor befitting every other thread?

all the best as always
 
Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

Heck with it. I'll bite.

Is it possible to talk about Jesus being fully human but fully "filled" with God ala Sufist "fanaa" and then "baqaa" through "dhikr"? Basically is it possible for a fully created human being to be so "empty" (and self-emptying) of themselves before Allah that they are continually "filled" with Allah's presence? It seems so, even from the Sufist perspective.

The best analogy I've heard goes like this. Imagine an iron rod stuck into a fire. The iron rod NEVER CEASES being an iron rod with the properties of iron and so forth...however it DOES take on some of the properties of fire (ie causes light, can burn, etc).

Analogously speaking, let...

Iron rod <=> full human existence, the believer in Allah

Fire <=> Divine Presence, Allah's Presence

White-hot iron rod <=> fully human believer permeated (though not CONFUSED) with the energies of Allah's Presence.

This works such that two different realities (Uncreated and created) co-exist in the same being at the same time, without fusion or confusion of the two realities.

Just a thought. ;D

Dil-2.gif

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Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

to the vale lilly; thank you for your post and apologies if you think it didnt help; as a matter of fact I was reading up about the Q gospel and the gospel of thomas both of which you mentioned also been looking up Gnostism and some self professed middle eastern prophet who was guided by angels ; wrote a new book ; thought Christ was never crucified and believed himself to be the last prophet. Im sure someone as learned and well read as you will have read of him too Mani. But it would be lazy of me not to read it thoroughly and reach some independant opinion and be able to explain it in my own way rather than just post a ton of links and ask my readers to chase after what i should be able to explain if ive assimilated what ive read properly. One question I would ask though from you; are You saying that Mohammed would accept the gospel of Thomas as the Injeel that was uncorrupted or not? There is no written evidence of a Q gospel just scholary belief that such a thing existed based on observations of known books. So the only concrete lead you have given me is the Thomas Gospel. So again I thank yu for your help.

Love and Respect
 
Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

Interestingly enough, I've read that there were some Sufi Muslims who were persecuted and killed by other Muslims because the language of their mystical experience of union with Allah was too close to sounding like "shirk". Is that right?

Still on the topic of divinity and humanity coinciding in human existence...
 
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Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

3rddec said:
to the vale lilly; thank you for your post and apologies if you think it didnt help; as a matter of fact I was reading up about the Q gospel and the gospel of thomas both of which you mentioned also been looking up Gnostism and some self professed middle eastern prophet who was guided by angels ; wrote a new book ; thought Christ was never crucified and believed himself to be the last prophet. Im sure someone as learned and well read as you will have read of him too Mani. But it would be lazy of me not to read it thoroughly and reach some independant opinion and be able to explain it in my own way rather than just post a ton of links and ask my readers to chase after what i should be able to explain if ive assimilated what ive read properly. One question I would ask though from you; are You saying that Mohammed would accept the gospel of Thomas as the Injeel that was uncorrupted or not? There is no written evidence of a Q gospel just scholary belief that such a thing existed based on observations of known books. So the only concrete lead you have given me is the Thomas Gospel. So again I thank yu for your help.

Love and Respect
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It is a strange thing that state of the man worshiping idolater if you ignore them they bait you, if you supply them with ample info. they complain of the voluminousness of it. Guaranteed if I post you historical contradictions and other absurdities that you'll simply avert your vision for your personal delusions. I am not particularly keen on wasting my time and for the simple reason that I think if your religion had any good standing, you wouldn't be losing devotees at a rate of a percent a year...

Let's put it this way so you'll quit with your lengthy queries.. there is no type of 'Gospel' that you'd come up with that would be acceptable.

This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. (5:3)

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God), never will it be accepted of him. (3:85)


Hope that clarifies it for you--

all the best
 
Does Islam believe that it is possible for there to be life on other planets did God

Does Islam believe that it is possible for there to be life on other planets did God create life on other planets is this possible ?
 
Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

3rddec said:
But it would be lazy of me not to read it thoroughly and reach some independant opinion and be able to explain it in my own way rather than just post a ton of links and ask my readers to chase after what i should be able to explain if ive assimilated what ive read properly. One question I would ask though from you; are You saying that Mohammed would accept the gospel of Thomas as the Injeel that was uncorrupted or not? There is no written evidence of a Q gospel just scholary belief that such a thing existed based on observations of known books. So the only concrete lead you have given me is the Thomas Gospel. So again I thank yu for your help.
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Have you read, "Lost Christianities" by Bart Ehrman? This book lays out the evolution of Chrstianity and the extreme diversity in fundamental beliefs of the earliest Christians. It also talks about the books found at Nag Hamadi of which The Gospel of Thomas was one. There is no evidence that anything Jesus said or did was put into writing until many years after his ascension. The NT and apocryphal Gospels are definitely more similar to our hadith without the rigorous authentication, hence the large amount of discrepancies, for example not even the 2 versions of the Lord's Prayer are identically recorded. No, the Gospel of Thomas would not be accepted as the unadulterated Injeel of Prophet Jesus as I have said there is no evidence to say that it was even written down during his life albeit I am sure that bits and pieces were preserved orally to be latter written along with other things that were half-truths and others that were flat out fabrications, particularly in the Gospel of John.
 
Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

YO---that would be the persian mystic al-Hallaj---while in a state of fanaa he said "I am the truth" ---he was executed

according to John 14:6. Jesus Christ (pbuh) said --- I am the way and the truth and the life......:D perhaps he was also a sufi in fanaa?;D
 
Re: Does Islam believe that it is possible for there to be life on other planets did

Allah tells us;


وَمِنْ آيَاتِهِ خَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَمَا بَثَّ فِيهِمَا مِن دَابَّةٍ ۚ وَهُوَ عَلَىٰ جَمْعِهِمْ إِذَا يَشَاءُ قَدِيرٌ

"And among His signs is the creation of the heavens [samaawaat] and the earth, and the beasts that He has scattered throughout them both: and He has power to gather them together when He wills." [Sûrah al-Shûrâ 42: 29]


The heavens' [samaawaat] refers to the sky, space, and all that is Above us.


So it is possible that Allah has created other beings in space like aliens etc. And Allah knows best.



Also see;
http://islamtoday.com/artshow-302-3200.htm
 
Re: What do I say to Christians who think Jesus can be God and human at the sametime

3rddec said:
A truthfull answer and the answer of a peacemaker , and Christ said "blessed are the peacemakers" would be " I believe that full understanding of the nature of God is beyond human comprehension and that I believe God is capable of anything except doing Evil and being Unjust
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Habakkuk 1:12 makes a statement concerning God saying: "thou diest not." (Moffatt) and Hebrews 6:18 says that it is impossible for God to lie.

Whatever you say about God being beyond comprehension certain things are clear and easily understood: God cannot lie and God cannot die. If God were ever to die then Habakkuk 1:12 would be a falsehood.

So when Jesus stated that he "was dead" (Revelation 1:18) he showed proof that he could not be God. God has always been immortal. But Jesus became immortal only after his death and resurrection according to Romans 6:9.
 

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