truthseeker63's Corner in Comparative religion

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Ok. Time to take stock. I've pretty much given my best understanding of the Triunity of God (Father, Word, Spirit) and the hypostatic union of Jesus (Complementarity relationship between Uncreated and Created in one human being.) But I just want to focus on the main thread topic: Jesus being "Immortal" (Uncreated) and Mortal (Created) at the same time.

Here's my questions. For whoever'd like to answer.

1) Is my depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus contrary to logic? If so, please explain how.

2) Is my depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus incomprehensible to reason? If so, please show where and how.

3) Is my depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus antithetical to fundmental beliefs in Islamic metaphysics? If so, please show where and how.
(I'll tip my hat here. I don't see how that can be the case. Islam already believes that Jesus' very existence was by a creative "word" of God...and it already believes in of a concept of God's "uncreated speech" ala the Quran. All I would be postulation is that the creative "word" spoken to Mary, blown into her by the Holy Spirit, was actually God's "uncreated speech" [ala Memra...or Mother of the Book, too, perhaps?], a divine self-revelatory act where God's "uncreated speech" can be felt, touched, and held with human hands, like what is said about the Quran. For any Muslim to deny it's metaphysical possibility within Islam, they'd have to eliminate any argument at all for any pre-existent, uncreated "speech" or heavenly "prototype" ala the Mother of the Book. And I don't think that's gonna happen.)

If any would like to answer these questions for me, I think some good feedback could result. Plus it will bring out any direct challenges and/or refutations of what I've said...which is great. :)
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

YieldedOne said:
Zafran:
He doesnt I rest my point. Everything you said has no backing by Jesus pbuh words. The Quran being uncreated is nowhere near as important as the trinity is to christians.

Ok. Let me make my point more plain. Very many Muslims believe that the Quran is uncreated "speech" of God...and though it may not be a central belief of Islam, it is a significant one. And--as far as I can tell--there is no direct qu'ranic or hadithic statement saying that the Quran is uncreated. That's why there's been differences of opinion on the matter within Islam. That idea came from a deliberation of Muslim believers, reflecting on the texts and Islamic theology and belief as they then had it. It was NO DIFFERENT for the Christian formation of the Trinity from it's councils.
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Not realy and it isnt that significant - Its more on the realm of speculative theology unlike the trinity which is indeed a core principle of christainty that Jesus pbuh himself never talks about. Shouldnt the trinty be in the realm of speculative theology as well then?

The Question of the uncreatedness of the Quran never came up until the time of Ahmed ibn Hanbal (ra) - It was preety irrelvent before as it wasnt seen as a problem unlike the trinty in christainty.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Zafran:
Not realy and it isnt that significant - Its more on the realm of speculative theology unlike the trinity which is indeed a core principle of christainty that Jesus pbuh himself never talks about. Shouldnt the trinty be in the realm of speculative theology as well then? The Question of the uncreatedness of the Quran never came up until the time of Ahmed ibn Hanbal (ra) - It was preety irrelvent before as it wasnt seen as a problem unlike the trinty in christianity.

You seem to be more focussed on the believed centrality of the Trinity to Christian faith (as opposed to the Muslim belief that the Quran is uncreated)...than seeing what I'm saying about the processes of the development of the respective beliefs. Just like word and concept "Trinity" doesn't appear as a direct statement and/or affirmation in the Bible...neither does the concept of the Quran being uncreated appear as a direct statement and/or affirmation in the Quran. All I'm saying is give BOTH SIDES equal time with that.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Check this out...

"Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
John 8:56-59

If this isn't anything else, this would be Jesus directly associating himself with the "I Am" self-declaration of God. That's exactly why his fellow Jews immediately began try to stone him after he said that. They weren't mad merely at the claim of pre-existing Abraham. That would have just been laughable and crazy to them. No, they were mad because he took Exodus 3:14 and directly slapped it upon himself, right after such a claim. THAT was stoning worthy to them!

God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exodus 3:14

But if we look at this through the lens of the hypostatic union--basically Jesus as incarnated self-revelatory, uncreated "Word/Speech" of God into human existence--wouldn't this actually MAKE SENSE and be EXPLAINABLE in those terms?

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeealy think about it.

I would also say that Jesus perfectly incarnated the Word of God ala the Great Commandments (Deut 6:4-5; Leviticus 19:9-18). Jesus was the sinless, perfect human embodiment and expression of God's Word/Commandments insofar as Jesus never failed to love God with all his heart, soul, mind and strenght and love his neighbors as himself.
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Those who are already in a conversation, please ignore me.....

Those who are unfamiliar with Christian history and their creeds---here is some info -----BUT caution:p---proceed at your own risk---warning of a killer migraine up ahead :D

The Creed of Constantinople (Which got confused with the creed of nicea)
Why is the Creed of Constantinople (AD 381) called the Nicene Creed? The liturgy of the Book of Common Prayer actually provides what I think is the best description of the Great Creed utilised in the Eucharist, as the BCP calls it the 'Creed commonly called Nicene.' The exact origin of the Creed we today use as the Great Creed in Eucharistic worship, for the whole Catholic Church both East and West, has been lost in the mists of time. The answer to the question is not itself simple but can be reduced to a simplistic phrase: the Constantinopolitan Creed is identified with the Nicene Creed because the Council that officially ratified it, the Fourth Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon (AD 451), did so. Chalcedon confused the Creed of Nicea with the Creed of Constantinople because the Council of Constantinople professed that its teaching was the true expression of Nicene faith and orthodoxy. The reason for all this is shrouded in mystery; all we know for certain is that the First Council of Constantinople in AD 381 led in time, likely after the period of the Council itself, to the creation of a new Creed, an expansion of a third-century baptismal creed used in the Church of Jerusalem, which was called the 'Faith of the 318 Fathers,' that is, the Faith of the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea I. It is possible that Saint Cyril of Jerusalem presented the form of the Constantinopolitan Creed to the Council of AD 381 from his own Church: this however is an ancient tradition and not based on certain evidence. This much we do know - in turn, the 'Creed of the 150 Fathers,' that is, the Creed of Constantinople I, was declared to be same as the Creed of Nicea I by the Council of Chalcedon in 451. Chalcedon also stated that the Creed of Constantinople (C), which was confused with the original Creed of Nicea (N), was to be unchanged and unaltered forever - and that any effort to change, alter, or correct the Creed so received would be heresy

Council of Ephesus (With regards to the "Mother Of God" concept still held by the Catholics---and hotly debated within early Christian history----the use of the title "Mother of God" instead of "Mother of Christ")

"We confess, then, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in Godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her" (Formula of Union [A.D. 431]).

(And here is OFFICIAL CHRISTIAN the explanation of the HYPOSTATIC UNION)
THE ATHANASIAN CREED dates from the late fourth century, and is attributed to St. Athanasius (296-373), the great defender of Catholic Truth. Those who held to the Arian heresy, which ravaged the Church at that time, denied the divinity of Christ. As a result, Athanasius composed this creed which includes lengthy explanations of the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union (the Human and Divine natures of Christ forming one Person)...
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith, except a man keep whole and integral, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. Now the Catholic Faith is this: that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. For such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, the Holy Ghost uncreate; the Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible; the Father eternal, the Son eternal, the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet, there are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated, nor three incomprehensibles; but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise, the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Ghost is Lord. And yet there are not three Lords, but one Lord. For, as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord; so we are forbidden by the Catholic religion to say there be three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made by none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after the other. None is greater or less than another, but the whole three Persons are co-equal and co-eternal together. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore it is necessary unto eternal salvation that he believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ is God and man. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the world; and Man of the substance of His Mother, born into the world. Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Godhead as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God, and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven; He sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their works. And they that have done good shall go into everlasting life, and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This, then, is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

(Notice the underlined word---incomprehensible :D---that about says it all)
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

woodrow: alright and have a safe trip.

siam said:
(Notice the underlined word---incomprehensible ---that about says it all)
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greetings siam, incomprehensible indeed. that is in the respect that god cannot be perfectly comprehended. if you being finite wish to imply that you comprehend an infinite god, then we would have to say that this is dishonest on your part. truth is that 'incomprehensible' is the only word fit for the dignity of the subject which is being discussed.

that said, if it is either the logical coherence of the trinity or the hypostatic union that you want to disprove, then you are quite welcome to begin to attack my points.
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Dear Sol Invictus

There is a proverb in Turkey " One of the insane people threw a stone into the well, Forty wise men couldn't extract it " , Three personifications in one entity, three but one, three controller, three organizer, two spectator with no interference, a slander like dementia, and it goes long, ( Yes God is Comprehensible in Islam too, He is away from being described triune ) . I hope I will write some logical proofs about tawhid. And I have to state that, in east throughout history, Discussions in this respect has been based on proving tawhid instead of explaining falsity of trinity. Every positive supposition is based on an existence. I mean proving non-existence of trinity is only be possible by proving unity. I hope I ll be right here before Woodrow,
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Chavundur said:
Dear Sol Invictus

There is a proverb in Turkey " One of the insane people threw a stone into the well, Forty wise men couldn't extract it " , Three personifications in one entity, three but one, three controller, three organizer, two spectator with no interference, a slander like dementia, and it goes long, ( Yes God is Comprehensible in Islam too, He is away from being described triune ) . I hope I will write some logical proofs about tawhid. And I have to state that, in east throughout history, Discussions in this respect has been based on proving tawhid instead of explaining falsity of trinity. Every positive supposition is based on an existence. I mean proving non-existence of trinity is only be possible by proving unity. I hope I ll be right here before Woodrow,
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while i don't appreciate the tone of your response, i'd rather you deal with what i have written before we move on to the subject of tawhid. by deal with what i have written i mean that i would like you to quote my arguments as i have done the arguments of others and dissect it for the participants in this thread and show it is illogical instead of merely making such claims but altogether ignoring my points. furthermore, let us hope that your next reply will be more respectful than the one above. anyway, i will be heading out very soon and while i had ignored your claims earlier, when i return i will debunk some of the claims you've been making within this thread.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Sorry Sol Invictus if I state sentences dishonestly, I didn't mean your arguments or claims. As you see my message was short and superficial. It is only about general trinity thought of Christianity, I started message in your name because I wanted you to know why Muslims disprove trinity by pointing at its illogical sides or contradictions. It is not easy to prove that as I expressed above why. As you see my writing capacity is not enough for sarcasm or other unjust meanings.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

YieldedOne said:
Zafran:
Not realy and it isnt that significant - Its more on the realm of speculative theology unlike the trinity which is indeed a core principle of christainty that Jesus pbuh himself never talks about. Shouldnt the trinty be in the realm of speculative theology as well then? The Question of the uncreatedness of the Quran never came up until the time of Ahmed ibn Hanbal (ra) - It was preety irrelvent before as it wasnt seen as a problem unlike the trinty in christianity.

You seem to be more focussed on the believed centrality of the Trinity to Christian faith (as opposed to the Muslim belief that the Quran is uncreated)...than seeing what I'm saying about the processes of the development of the respective beliefs. Just like word and concept "Trinity" doesn't appear as a direct statement and/or affirmation in the Bible...neither does the concept of the Quran being uncreated appear as a direct statement and/or affirmation in the Quran. All I'm saying is give BOTH SIDES equal time with that.
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Your camparison isnt a good one becasue the uncreated nature of the Quran is indeed in the realm of SPECULATIVE THEOLOGY - Are you seriously trying to campare that with the trinty??? - its indeed a terrible camparision - Can you even give indirect proof of the trinty with the statemnets of Jesus pbuh or is this just sepculative theology made mainstream?
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Siam,
1) You didn't answer my questions...even tangentially.

2) If you want me to use the more formal term Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381, that's fine. This changes nothing about what I'm arguing, if you check. Can you deal with my actual thoughts?

3) All the "Mother of God" term was delineating is that "God the Word" took on flesh in and through Mary. It's just affirming that, if you note.

4) Your underlining of "incomprehensible" in the quote you cite just mentions that all 3 members of the Trinity are incomprehensible to the human finite mind. It is not talking about theological models being incomprehensible.

Siam, I think I know your capacity for engagement is MUCH, MUCH better than this. Can you do some real engagement, please? :D
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Zafran:
Your camparison isnt a good one becasue the uncreated nature of the Quran is indeed in the realm of SPECULATIVE THEOLOGY - Are you seriously trying to campare that with the trinty??? - its indeed a terrible camparision - Can you even give indirect proof of the trinty with the statemnets of Jesus pbuh or is this just sepculative theology made mainstream?

Gee whiz. This ain't that hard. REGARDLESS if the uncreated nature of the Quran is "speculative theology", it's STILL THE CASE that the belief DOES exist within Islam. And it didn't come there from any direct Quranic verse or verses. It came from later discussion of Muslim believers taking the text and theology into account. If it's VALID for Islam to do this, how come it's NOT VALID for Christians to do this?
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

salaam Mods please delete thanks

peace
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

.........................First indication...Second indication............
FIFTH INDICATION

We have demonstrated with decisive proofs in many places that the most fundamental characteristic of rulership is independence and separateness. The weak shadow of rulership in impotent men even vehemently rejects the interference of others and does not permit others to meddle in its duty, in order to preserve its independence. Many kings have mercilessly put to death their innocent children and loved brothers on account of this rejection of interference. That is to say, the most basic characteristics of true rulership, and its inseparable necessities and perpetual essentials are independence, separateness, and the rejection of the interference of others.

It is because of this most basic characteristic that Divine rulership, which is at the degree of absolute dominicality, most vehemently rejects the association of any partners and the participation and interference of others. And the Qur'an of Miraculous Exposition too, insistently, repeatedly, and sternly, points out the affirmation of Divine Unity and rejects with severe threats the association of partners with God.

Thus, the Divine rulership in dominicality necessitates Divine Unity in definite fashion and shows a most powerful motive and necessitating cause. So too the infinitely perfect order and harmony on the face of the universe, apparent from the totality of the universe and the stars to the plants, animals, minerals down to particulars, individuals, and minute particles, are an indubitably veracious witness to and clear proof of that Singleness and Unity. For if others had interfered, this most sensitive balance, order, and regularity of the universe would have been spoilt and signs of disorder would have been apparent. In accordance with the meaning of the verse,

If there were in the heavens and the earth, other gods besides God, there would have been confusion in both!,2

this wondrous, perfect order of the universe would have been thrown into confusion and been spoilt. Whereas, according to the verse,

So turn your vision again; do you see any flaw?,3

from minute particles to the planets, from the ground to the Divine Throne, there is no sign of fault, defect, or confusion to be seen. Thus the order of the universe and of creatures and the balance of beings, demonstrate most brilliantly the greatest manifestation of the Name of Single and testify to Divine Unity.

Moreover, since, through the mystery of the manifestation of Divine Oneness, the tiniest living creature is a miniature sample of the universe and a small index of it, only the One in the grasp of Whose power is the whole universe can lay claim to it. And since, in regard to creation, a seed is not inferior to a tree, and a tree is a small universe, and all living beings are like small universes and small worlds, this mystery of Divine Oneness has made the association of partners with God impossible.

Through this mystery, the universe is not only an indivisible whole, but in respect of its nature, like a universal whose division and being broken up into parts is impossible and which does not accept participation and numerous hands in its creation. Thus, since each part of it is a

--------------

2. Qur'an, 21:22.

3. Qur'an, 67:3.

particular and individual part and the whole also is a universal, there is no possibility in any respect for the participation of others in it. It proves to the degree of being self-evident the greatest manifestation of the Name of Single, the reality of the affirmation of Divine Unity, and this mystery of Divine Oneness.

Yes, since the realms of beings in the universe are interwoven and interbonded and the functions of each look to all, it has made the universe, in respect of dominicality and creation, like an indivisible whole. So too, the all-encompassing general acts in the universe are interwoven and interpenetrated. That is, for example, within the act of giving life, the acts of nurturing and giving of sustenance are apparent at the same instant. And within those acts of nurturing and giving of life, at the same time the acts of ordering and decking out the living creature's body are observed. And within those acts of nurturing, giving life, ordering, and decking out, at the same time the acts of giving of form, raising, and regulating strike the eye. And so on, since such all-encompassing and general acts are interpenetrated and one within the other and blended together like the seven colours in light, indeed, are united; and since being the same in regard to their natures each of those acts encompasses and embraces most beings and are a single act; and since the one who performs the acts must be the same; and since each of them pervades the whole universe and unites with the other acts in co-operation and assistance; it has made the universe like an indivisible whole. Similarly, since all living creatures are like seeds, indexes, and samples of the universe, it has made the universe from the point of view of dominicality like a universal whose division and breaking into parts is impossible. That is to say, the universe is such a totality that to be Sustainer of a part of it is only possible by being Sustainer of the whole. And it is such a universal that each part of it has become like a single member; to make any one single member submit to His dominicality is only possible by subjugating the universal.
The Flashes ( 420 - 422 )
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Chavundur said:
Sorry Sol Invictus if I state sentences dishonestly, I didn't mean your arguments or claims. As you see my message was short and superficial. It is only about general trinity thought of Christianity, I started message in your name because I wanted you to know why Muslims disprove trinity by pointing at its illogical sides or contradictions. It is not easy to prove that as I expressed above why. As you see my writing capacity is not enough for sarcasm or other unjust meanings.
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greetings chavunder, first off, i must sincerely apologize for seemingly having misread you. it was a rather pleasant surprise to find out that you had no desire to be belligerent at all and as such i'm pleased that we'll be able to conduct this discussion on good terms. i have noticed your last post (so far) and while i don't know if it is addressed to me (i only skimmed it) i would ask if we could hold up on it for a while (having quickly skimmed it the first mistake i noticed was it's presumption that oneness assumes unitarianism and the inappropriate understanding of the trinity as it regards the indwelling of the members and the single divine will...that is to say, in order for you to prove the majority of what you have posted you must first refute my post #15 and #56 because as such, they bar any way for your argument to prove a credible opposition against the triune conception of god) while i dedicate this post to answering a common assumption which i believe to be quite wrong. here is what i'm talking about:

Chavundur said:
As Salamun Alaikum

According to logic , According to physics, according to history, according to mind created, there can be only one unique creator free from time and abode and form.
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i will reproduce for you a post i had made in a different thread which showed that even the muslim deity enters time, (can) exist in an abode and indeed assumes a form as well as generally enters his creation.

here is my argument:

Sol Invictus said:
alright, it's now more than obvious that my post has been misunderstood. the only flaw so far is in those individuals who assume that my point rests on allah being located in heaven. it has nothing to do with this and we can exclude the concept of heaven from the equation and still my argument would stand. so on that note, let us try again. what does the claim that allah cannot enter into his creation mean? it would seem to me that what muslims say and what islam teaches are two different things on this matter.

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532s:
Narrated Abu Sa’id Al-Khudri:
When there remain only those who used to worship Allah (Alone), both the obedient ones and the mischievous ones, it will be said to them, ‘What keeps you here when all the people have gone?’ They will say, ‘We parted with them (in the world) when we were in greater need of them than we are today, we heard the call of one proclaiming, ‘Let every nation follow what they used to worship,’ and now we are waiting for our Lord.’ Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, ‘I am your Lord,’ and they will say, ‘You are not our Lord.’

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 105:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Then (Allah) the Lord of the worlds will come to them in a shape nearest to the picture they had in their minds about Him. It will be said, ‘What are you waiting for?’ Every nation have followed what they used to worship.’ They will reply, ‘We left the people in the world when we were in great need of them and we did not take them as friends. Now we are waiting for our Lord Whom we used to worship.’ Allah will say, ‘I am your Lord.’ They will say twice or thrice, ‘We do not worship any besides Allah.’ “

Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76, Number 577:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
and then only this nation (i.e., Muslims) will remain, including their hypocrites. Allah will come to them in a shape other than they know and will say, ‘I am your Lord.‘ They will say, ‘We seek refuge with Allah from you. This is our place; (we will not follow you) till our Lord comes to us, and when our Lord comes to us, we will recognize Him.

Then Allah will come to them in a shape they know and will say, “I am your Lord.‘ They will say, ‘(No doubt) You are our Lord,’ and they will follow Him.

now from the above it would seem that allah does in fact take on a shape. if he takes on a shape then he exhibits certain dimensions which are the property of space (length, width, height). these very dimensions have not always existed and came into being during the big bang and as such are a creation of allah. yet the fact that allah takes on these very properties goes to show that he does indeed enter his own creation. so once again i must reiterate the fact that unlike what many muslims claim, allah does indeed enter his creation. now in light of the clear evidence above, i would still not be surprised if the claim was made that i have somehow been deceiving in my argument so let's suppose that contrary to evidence, i was in fact wrong and when these texts say that allah will take on a shape they really mean "allah will not take on a shape". let us suppose this is true, it would still not hurt the argument that allah does indeed enter his creation.

that is, we all understand that time is a creation of allah, right? yet allah acts within time in order to fulfill his purpose. the very fact that he acts presupposes the entering of time for there can be no act that does not involve temporality (if one disagrees, they are welcome to give an example of an act that does not take place within time). the very fact of creating everything in existence means that (while he simultaneously created time in doing so) he also entered time to do so. before creation, allah existed in a state of no time where nothing happened. the fact that at some point he chose to create everything in existence means that he took action and action can only happen within the realm of time. so once more, allah entered and repeatedly enters time in order to fulfill his purpose and given that time is a creation of his it becomes obvious that allah does in fact enter into his creation.

now i can already see how i could be misunderstood and as such i will say that i'm not saying that allah is bound to time. i'm only saying that allah did indeed enter time and that contrary to what muslims say, in claiming that allah created everything that exists, islam teaches that allah does in fact enter his creation.

@mustafa: must you believe that i really harbour such dark motives? the fact of the matter is that i saw this claim within your post and merely wanted an explanation.
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i would encourage you to view the actual thread where this quote is from in order to see how this discussion was concluded.
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Since Siam put that stuff earlier. I figured I'd try to do some summation where available...here goes...

1) The term "Mother of God" means that Mary was the mother of the eternal "Word/Memra" of God the Father, bringing forth God's word into humanity. Mary is the mother of God only in THAT sense. It means nothing more than that.


2) The Athanasian Creed has some of the following concepts:

a) There is genuine TRIUNITY in the self-relationship of God the Father, His Word/Son, and His Spirit. No modalism or tritheism. All 3 hypostases ARE equally uncreated, and therefore God. At the same time, God the Father (the Unbegotten) is the ground of the triunity. God the Father "begets" His Word/Son via the Spirit that "proceeds" from Him.

b) Jesus of Nazereth is the "Word/Son" of God incarnated into one human being. God's Eternal Word/Son took on all incoporeal and corporeal elements of humanity via the creative word to Mary via power of the God's Spirit. Therefore, Jesus is God (Uncreated) and human (Created) as the one "Word" in hypostatic union with humanity. Jesus is the Incarnate Word who was also the one "Messiah" (Christ).

c) Jesus of Nazareth is at the right hand of God, the Father...right now! :D

3) Please note how my analogy falls well within these lines. Jesus of Nazareth is the single "atom" who's "wave-like" tendencies as the Uncreated "Word/Memra" of God are mutually-exclusive from yet undeniably related to the "particle-like" tendencies of his created human soul and body...such that Jesus is fully divine and fully human just like a single atom is fully "wave" and fully "particle."
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Now. For real, y'all. Is what I'm describing really just THAT irrational or incomprehensible? There seem to be a number of human analogies that give real meaning to the concepts. Basically, we have conceptual models and language (like quantum mechanics, self-relationality of human being, etc) that help us to understand. I guess that why I've asked those questions. The Trinity and the Hypostatic Union in Jesus makes complete sense to me. And I've tried to show how my thoughts go on it.

What's really interesting to me is that...
1) it's very consistent with the Judaism that proceeds it,
2) it doesn't seem to abograte the Absolute Unity of the One God referred to in the Jewish Shema, the God and Father of humanity in general and Israel in particular
and...
3) it doesn't go against Islamic metaphysics as I understand it (ala Islamic belief of the uncreated nature of Quran and heavenly archetypal nature of the "Mother of the Book").
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Hi Sol Invictus ,


As Woodrow said at that topic linked, Hadiths may have metaphorical meanings, I assure you that you can find too much hadiths in this aspect, even there are a lot of metaphorical hadiths about the end of the times and recent times, their meanings can only be understood with current conditions. And you can see that sorts of hadiths about hereafter, ( Generally, companions of messenger had not academic degree or civilized education, He made some truths close to minds by metaphors) I can say about the Bukhari Hadiths a lot of remarks like saying " these forms are not his original form", "Only appeared in that way or He wanted to seem to Christians in the form of what they supposed but they were already knowing their supposition was wrong and admitted their falsity with their mouth by saying you are not our lord "....


And finally this discussion will serve no purpose because as I stated above, philosophical suppositions and headways can not lead us to divine authenticity separately, in itself alone. As our senior scholars said, taking the road of philosophy to arrive at truth is like trying to pass ocean through swimming ( It is possible by the way, but not easy). Reality is too detailed, We can't capture everything, limitless information and limitless viewpoints obstruct . For cutting short I have to come to an end. I made some mistakes by writing sentences like " why Muslims disprove trinity " instead of " Why Muslims had not been concentrated on disproving trinity ". We prove the correctness and easiness of divine unity only, consequently trinity approach becomes groundless. My style and approach was wrong at the beginning because I didn't comform this rule. And I explained some logical reasons of this approach, why working on disproving that supposition is to waste time and wrong. I think I am to much interested in refuting Atheistic thoughts instead of inter-religious matters like trinity. May my experienced Muslim brothers forgive me for writing in this topic without working seriously on it. I have to confess that I wasn't knowing what triune is. ( Unforgivable:.)) . Finally Sol Invictus ,As you see I try to cut short in order to not prevent minds from focusing on what the point is. I measure the facts by reasoning in the terms of message above starting with First Indication. I focus on thinking proofs of unity now only.
 

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