truthseeker63's Corner in Comparative religion

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Ooops. Forgot a piece...

YO: Surah 7:12, right...where Satan says he's "better" than Adam, an example of Satan's arrogance, yes? I've already got that. Mansur Al-Hallaj's take is not antithetical with this idea...but takes a different spin on it to make a point. (Which I thought was well made). The same principle applies: If God commands others to "prostrate oneself" or "bow the knee" to someone, to NOT do so is to break faith with God. This can be done from the pride of comparison (Surah 7:12) OR the pride of self-righteousness (Al-Hallaj).

Siam: in order to prevent a misunderstanding, I asked you to read parts of Surah 2. From an Islamic/Quranic perspective God does not "command" arbitrarily---there is a purpose/reason. Iblis understood the reason/purpose (which was demonstrated to him) and refused because of pride arrogance......As I have explained on several previous occassions---the Quran does not condone blind belief/faith.

Well, from a Christian perspective, God doesn't "command" arbitrarily either. The purpose/reason for the command to "bow the knee" to Jesus as God-authorized Lord of All is in the 1 Corinthians passage I mentioned: God the Father exalts Jesus as the faithful Messiah and Lord...to have Jesus AS Lord return all exaltation and glorification BACK to God the Father.

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God (the Father) may be all in all.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Brother Woodrow. Whussup, homie?
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

YO: I didn't say that God told them to worship Adam as God. The whole reason I referred to the story at all (particular Al-Hallaj's take) was to show that God CAN tell creatures to "prostrate themselves" or "bend the knee" to another creature WITHOUT that inherently being idolatry.

Siam: I can agree to that.

Ok, then. Then you should be able to understand the implications of this passage...

...God has highly exalted him (Jesus) and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phillipians 2:10-11
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

From the "Jesus in Islam" wiki...

According to Islamic tradition which describes this graphically, Jesus' descent will be in the midst of wars fought by the Mahdi (lit. "the rightly guided one"), known in Islamic eschatology as the redeemer of Islam, against the Antichrist (al-Masīkh ad-Dajjāl, "false messiah") and his followers. Jesus will descend at the point of a white arcade, east of Damascus, dressed in yellow robes – his head anointed. He will then join the Mahdi in his war against the Antichrist. Jesus, considered in Islam as a Muslim, will abide by the Islamic teachings. Eventually, Jesus will slay the Antichrist, and then everyone from the people of the book (ahl al-kitāb, referring to Jews and Christians) will believe in him. Thus, there will be one community, that of Islam.

...

After the death of the Mahdi, Jesus will assume leadership. This is a time associated in Islamic narrative with universal peace and justice. Islamic texts also allude to the appearance of Ya'juj and Ma'juj (known also as Gog and Magog), ancient tribes which will disperse and cause disturbance on earth. God, in response to Jesus' prayers, will kill them by sending a type of worm in the napes of their necks. Jesus' rule is said to be around forty years, after which he will die.

Now, what do you have here. You have Jesus, God's Messiah, exerting God-given leadership over all the world with "universal peace and justice" where all people are "submitting" to the One God who sent Jesus in the first place...and authorized him as Leader of the new world order. Ummm...it seems like Christianity and Islam are pretty similar to THAT degree. Christians just say that 1) Jesus won't die after this happens; per Scripture, Jesus' rule will be an ETERNAL one...and 2) all will "bow the knee" to Jesus as God-authorized leader over all the world.

Basically, Christians believe that God the Father, in effect, says "Prostrate before Jesus, My Messiah and Your Leader!"


I know I ain't gonna disobey that...and, I suspect, neither would Woodrow or Siam. :D
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

More intertexual evidence of Jesus being believed to be "Word/Memra" of God...

The Apostle Paul talking about Christ. PLEASE NOTE what he says in Colossians 1...

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Now...what did the Jewish Encyclopedia say about the Memra again?

The Memra as a cosmic power furnished Philo the corner-stone upon which he built his peculiar semi-Jewish philosophy. Philo's "divine thought," "the image" and "first-born son" of God, "the archpriest," "intercessor," and "paraclete" of humanity, the "arch type of man" , paved the way for the Christian conceptions of the Incarnation ("the Word become flesh") and the Trinity.

The only reason Paul could even make this description of Jesus to the church of Colosse--generally dated in the 50s of CE--is if Jesus were directly associated with the Word/Memra of God in his mind. This is Paul's JEWISHLY GROUNDED belief, following Philo...not merely some Hellenistic, Gentilic composite. See that? :shade:

(Quick note: I really hope that all this goes to show why I term myself JUDEO-Christian. Frankly, a person simply cannot understand Christianity rightly when it's arbitrarily separated from it's Jewish roots. It would be like trying to fully understand "Return of the Jedi" without having seen "Star Wars" and "The Empire Strikes Back" first. You may understand some things in watching "Return of the Jedi" as a stand alone movie, but lots of stuff just won't make sense. EXACTLY the same way with Christianity, which is why the Torah, Prophets, and Writings are official canon of the Church.)
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

I'm really sorry for replying late.....didn't get time...was kinda busy....

Sol Invictus said:
now, what you bring up would only be a problem for the christian if the bible didn't also contain clear evidence that christ claimed to be god. he demanded that all should honour him exactly as they honour the father (john 5:23), he claimed to be able to do whatever the father does (john 5:19), and moreover he claimed that it would be him that would judge every person on judgement day (john 5:22).
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These are NOT the words of Jesus…he himself never claimed as such…..neither are these written by any of his disciples…moreover, the author of this gospel is anonymous…
"According to the majority viewpoint for most of the 20th century, Jesus' teaching in John is largely irreconcilable with that found in the Synoptics, and scholars have chosen the version found in the Synoptics as representing the teaching of the historical Jesus."----- Encyclopædia Britannica

How can we rely on such claims…perhaps the author never even met Jesus, let alone preach what (something that was not even there in the other texts) HE taught ?!!
Same goes for Paul (referring to Philippians 2:5-8)…did he ever meet Jesus??...as far as I know about him he was not even among Jesus's followers, he converted only after Jesus had gone! So I personally wouldn't rely on either of these, Gospel of John and the epistles of Paul.

Sol Invictus said:
. the fact is, that what you will find is that the bible says that christ is god, that the holy spirit is god, and that the father is god. the bible says that christ created the world, that the father created the world, and that the holy spirit created the world etc.
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if you claim this can you post those verses which specifically say each of what you've mentioned??

Sol Invictus said:
the bible is quite clear that there is only one god yet at the same time it is equally clear in the fact that christ is god, that the father is god, and that the holy spirit is god. there is no question that that is the trinity.
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You can't be sure though!! You never know…

YieldedOne said:
I'd have to say that you are VERY INACCURATE on this, Peacelover. Even a cursory reading of his belief shows that he DEFINITELY believed just what Siam said...
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FYI…..Fanaa or "the union of man with God"; basically mysticism, is a heresy!!..there is nothing as such in Islam…and in fact it is punishable both in this world and the Hereafter….i mean what do these people think when they innovate such things ?!
Al-Hallaj was a HERETIC and for this claim of his; "Anal Haqq"- "I'm the Reality" he was publicly executed as an APOSTATE…he dared to openly claim such nonsense!!

What bro Siam said is exactly what Hallaj didn't believe in...rather he said "I AM the reality ". He associated himself to God Almighty.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

peacelover said:
These are NOT the words of Jesus…he himself never claimed as such…..neither are these written by any of his disciples…moreover, the author of this gospel is anonymous…
"According to the majority viewpoint for most of the 20th century, Jesus' teaching in John is largely irreconcilable with that found in the Synoptics, and scholars have chosen the version found in the Synoptics as representing the teaching of the historical Jesus."----- Encyclopædia Britannica
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greetings peacelover. yet these are indeed the words of christ. christ is the speaker in them. i could very show you the same as the above for why the statements in the qur'an concerning christ are mere copies of apocrypha which date after the books of the bible and were never considered inspired yet you would not agree with this.

peacelover said:
How can we rely on such claims…perhaps the author never even met Jesus, let alone preach what (something that was not even there in the other texts) HE taught ?!!
Same goes for Paul (referring to Philippians 2:5-8)…did he ever meet Jesus??...as far as I know about him he was not even among Jesus's followers, he converted only after Jesus had gone! So I personally wouldn't rely on either of these, Gospel of John and the epistles of Paul.
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because the author met the disciples of christ and peter himself calls the words of paul scripture (2 Peter 3:16). you seem to think that paul was off doing his own thing and that is incorrect. he met with the twelve disciples of christ on a couple of occasions and they placed their seal of approval on his doctrine.

peacelover said:
if you claim this can you post those verses which specifically say each of what you've mentioned??
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i don't think that i need to show where the bible says that the father is god and so i'll skip that part.

here is where the bible says that jesus created the world: john 1:3

that jesus is god: titus 2:13

that the holy spirit is god: acts 5:4

please do read all of the above in their context seeing that this will make more sense then just the random verse (i would think).

peacelover said:
You can't be sure though!! You never know…
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if we can't be sure as it concerns the point i made then would it be equally true to say that when allah says that he has no consort, christians can equally say that muslims can't be sure of this?
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

What do we mean by 'die'?

According to the bible, when a little girl died Jesus said 'she is not dead, she sleeps.' It would apply then to Jesus as well, following biblical theology. Now according to Catholic theology with the 'hypostatic union', Jesus has the fullness of human nature and the fullness of Godly nature inseparably joined via incarnation.

But when a human dies, the body and the soul separate, leaving a dead body and a living soul. My grandfather, for instance, is dead in the flesh but alive in the spirit, so to say. I imagine the same would apply in Catholic theology -- that when Jesus died on the crucifix, his body (which is 'hypostatic', fully human and fully God inseparably so) was dead but his soul (also 'hypostatic') continued to live on.

In short, 'she is not dead but she sleepeth' is thought to apply to Jesus as well. :shrug:
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

YieldedOne said:
YO: I didn't say that God told them to worship Adam as God. The whole reason I referred to the story at all (particular Al-Hallaj's take) was to show that God CAN tell creatures to "prostrate themselves" or "bend the knee" to another creature WITHOUT that inherently being idolatry.

Siam: I can agree to that.

Ok, then. Then you should be able to understand the implications of this passage...

...God has highly exalted him (Jesus) and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phillipians 2:10-11
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No I don't understand biblical concepts or phrasing----you will have to explain....
also....if this has anything to do with "incarnation"---then I would like to remind you, as a Muslim don't believe in it.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

YieldedOne said:
Siam, I noticed that you did NOT answer my question...

Does Allah know what it feels like to experience the process of death personally, such that he can say "I have experienced my own death."? If so, please show me how, in your framework.

I don't see how you can say this. And I think YOU know that you can't say that. But...let's just go with what you've said...

Siam:
1) Omnicient means---all-knowing----therefore God knows all. If we are to understand this in Islamic language, it would be that God is most Knowledgeable (the same way we say God is most Compassionate). When we as human beings understand words such as knowledge, compassion....etc we do so from a human-centric perspective (ofcourse)---but when these words are understood as God's attributes, it needs to be accepted that they are far beyond human experience. Therefore, when we say God is Most knowledgeable, it means God's knowledge encompasses far beyond the limitations of our human abilities to acquire knowledge. We may need to acquire knowledge from "experience"---however, this is a human limitation that does not/cannot apply to God who is ofcourse NOT human.

Philosophically, omniscience means knowing everything that is possible of being known proper to said omnscient being. An omniscient being cannot know the area of a square circle because there is no such thing. To say that an omniscient being cannot know an absurdity is NOT speaking against omniscience. In the same time, to say that an omniscient being--who happens to also be utterly transcendent of what we call life or death (like God the Father)--cannot know the experience of it's own demise is NOT speaking against omniscience. God the Father knows all experiences that are POSSIBLE for Him to know given who He is as "Unbegotten."

----:D YO---that stuff you wrote is absurd!! Let me expalin this slowly.....again ;D
1)The idea that something is POSSIBLE /IMPOSSIBLE for God is absurd.
2)The idea that God has some some knowledge but lacks other knowledge is absurd
3)The idea that God needs to acquireknowledge---because he is lacking in it---is absurd
4)To equate our human limitations as God's limitations---is absurd.

Perhaps a comparision of Divine -nature vs human nature might clarify...?
1)The important thing to remember here is that when we speak of God or Divine-nature, we cannot understand his totality because of our human limitations---therefore, in trying to understand Divine-nature, we must do so through attributes. Attributes are NOT God, they are only a facet of God. Therefore we cannot speak of God/Divine-nature in terms of is/is not---we understand in a limited way through his attributes.
2) The opposite applies to human-nature. When we speak of human nature, we are speaking in terms of limitations. Therefore it is possible to understand human nature in terms of what it is/ is not.

Human beings need to acquire knowledge through experience/living/learning (in time and space) because we are not born with knowledge. It is our nature to prefer the "known" over the "unknown" which is why we seek knowledge (and have scientists, philosophers...etc) that explore and explain the "unknown" so it becomes "known".
Here we have a lack---a)a lack of knowledge, that b) creates a "need"/desire to acquire knowledge.

Such limitations cannot apply to God. God is Most knowledgable. This means that he is inherently ALL-KNOWING before time and space. There is never a "time" that God lacks in knowledge because God is NOT situated/limited "in time". Because God does not lack---He is Most Perfect, He does not have "needs/desires". The human limitations of a) and b) mentioned above do not exist for Divine-nature. God is Most knowledgeable and therefore does NOT "need" to "acquire" knowledge---Got that?

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Siam:
2) the other assumption you are making is that God wants/needs to have an experience of death, (or sin/evil as Sol suggested---a totally horrible notion). From our limited human-centric perspective...needs/wants arise out of a lack---we feel we lack something so we need/want in order to fill the lack. However, if we understand God's attribute of most Perfect, it would mean that God has no needs or wants because God lacks nothing---He is Perfection.

This is a gross misunderstanding of what I'm saying. I'm not saying that God shares the created experience of death from some limitation or lack in Him. I'm saying that this identification was for OUR sakes...so that WE can know that God personally shares our all-two-human experience on some level. This idea of God's sharing and identifying with humanity is NOT based in some lack or limitation in God at all.

----Another absurd idea---Why do we "need" to bring God down to our level?---in fact, it should be the opposite---when we aspire to the attributes of God, such as The Most Compassionate....then we come closer to a slice of knowledge of God....remember---it is OUR human limitation that forces us to acquire knowledge through experience/learning. (That is why we Muslims have Ramadan---it helps us grow in compassion and mercy).

It is an incredible blessing from God that when we aspire to his attributes of Justice, Mercy, Compassion, Nurturing, Protecting, ...etc....we can gain in some small measure of knowledge of God. ("small" because that is the limit of our capacity)

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Siam:
Perhaps a better way for Christians to adhere to the Shema as well as "worship" Jesus Christ(pbuh) would be to dedicate ALL worship to God alone but follow the Guidance/Sunna of Jesus Christ(pbuh) with his sayings and his life being the practical example that every Christian could emulate........This type of "worship" of Jesus Chrsit(pbuh) would result in both personal spiritual benefit as well as external social benefit......and in this way---would accomplish God's will (which is to benefit all of God's creations)

I'd say that all Christians need is a decent education in and/or understanding of what they supposedly already believe.
---Such an understanding is an impossibility when you end up confusing human-nature with Divine-nature.

Christianly speaking, it's IMPOSSIBLE to "worship" Jesus as exalted Lord and Messiah...and NOT worship and glorify God the Father who exalted and anointed Jesus as such!
---which results in most Christians creating an anthropomorphic image of God (Sistine Chapel) and falling into idol worship. That is why Jesus Christ(pbuh) said to worship God.

Let me lay out the steps of what Paul is saying here..That's right Paulinian ideas....

1) God the Father raises Jesus from the dead.

2) God the Father exalts Jesus to reign over "ever rule and every authority and power"; this is what Paul means that God the Father has put everything in subjection to Jesus.

3) Whenever all things have been consolidated under Jesus as God's reigning authority, then Jesus will place HIMSELF (and all he has) under God the Father, such that God the Father is exalted as "all in all."
----sounds like they are having a tennis match---what's with all this back and forth?:D

For any Christian to believe that "worship" of Jesus is a STAND ALONE affair is just simply biblically illiterate. It's right in the text that the reign of Jesus is given to him by God the Father...and that Jesus GIVES that reign BACK to God the Father. Everything is from, of, and to God the Father in worship.

-----;D.......
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Siam:
Christians claim that 3-in-1 concept of God is the same as the One God. Would you then also accept that 100s-in-1 concept of God is the same as the 3-in-1 concept of God?

Nope. Remember, I talk about God being an uncreated, necessarily triune, personal reality in the eternal activity of self-relationship and self-expression. There's ONLY 3 aspects to this eternal self-communicative activity: God the Father, His Word/Memra, and His Breath/Spirit. No more is needed. Necessary TRI-UNITY

---Then I suppose the same agrument would apply to Shema/Tawheed---God is ONE not a Tri-Unity.

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As a Muslim, I see no logical reason for an "incarnation"
1) God is always present---he is not limited by time and space---but permeates all
2) God is Most Knowledgable---therefore does not lack in ANY knowledge
3) God has no needs/desires---because he does not "lack" and therefore does not "acquire"
4) Human beings acquire knowledge through experience/learning and by seeking knowledge, we can come to understand God in some small measure through his creation and through his attributes.

The reasons you supplied for an incarnation are inadequate.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Disappointingly amazing. imsad

Let me gather my thoughts and come back later...
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Wikipedia--Omniscience

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy--Omniscience

Whole philosophical discussions have been had on this for YEARS...

1. Defining Omniscience

Since omniscience is maximal or complete knowledge, it is typically defined in terms of knowledge of all true propositions, namely, as

<B>
(D1) S is omniscient =df for every proposition p, if p is true then S knows p.
​
</B>Some philosophers endorse variations on (D1). For example, Zagzebski (2007, 262) requires that for every proposition an omniscient being either knows it or knows that it is false. This is equivalent to (D1) if, as seems plausible, for every false proposition there is a true one to the effect that it is is false, and, less trivially, there are no propositions without a truth value. Plantinga (1977, 68), Davis (1983, 26), Gale (1991, 57), and others require that an omniscient being not only know all true propositions but believe no falsehoods. This is also equivalent to (D1), at least if it impossible to believe the denial of a proposition one knows to be true, knows that one knows to be true, knows is the denial of a proposition one knows, etc.

------------------------------------

Breaking this down, a being is omniscient has knowledge of all truths that exist and believes no falsehoods. This is why I said that God doesn't know that area of a square circle. A square circle is an absurdity and not a truth. This is why I said that God--in his utter transcendence--cannot say "I have knowledge of my personal experience of my own process of dying and death" because, in God's transcendence, God dying or being dead is an absurdity and not a truth. It does NOT go against God being maximally knowledgeable of all knowable truths to say that God doesn't know absurdities as truths.

This is all I've been saying. There are a number of philosophers that would agree with my statements.

Siam, you seem to make this an issue of "lack". Like to say that God doesn't know ANYTHING is to diminish God being maximally knowledgeable. And I keep telling you that it's not about that. It seems that you have the belief that for God to not know some absurdity that that innately means God is less that omniscient. That is a philosophically niave view of omniscience, honestly. Much greater minds than you or I have rigorously hashed this out for many, many years, Siam. Let's try to think about that.
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

God would not become his own Creation.
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

YO: I didn't say that God told them to worship Adam as God. The whole reason I referred to the story at all (particular Al-Hallaj's take) was to show that God CAN tell creatures to "prostrate themselves" or "bend the knee" to another creature WITHOUT that inherently being idolatry.
Siam: I can agree to that.

YO: Ok, then. Then you should be able to understand the implications of this passage...
...God has highly exalted him (Jesus) and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phillipians 2:10-11

Siam: No I don't understand biblical concepts or phrasing----you will have to explain....also....if this has anything to do with "incarnation"---then I would like to remind you, as a Muslim don't believe in it.

1) The point doesn't necessarily deal with incarnation, so that shouldn't be an issue here.

2) Here's the simplified meaning: God the Father has exalted His Messiah, Jesus, such that all creatures, angelic and human, will "bow the knee" to Jesus...and all of this brings glory to God the Father. Since you've agreed that God can tell creatures to "prostrate themselves" or "bow the knee" to another creature without that inherently being idolatry, then for a person to proclaim Jesus as God's authorized Lord and Messiah--and "bow the knee" to him as such--is NOT idolatry. In other words, a person being under the lordship of Jesus in obedience and glorification to the One God, God the Father, is NOT being idolatrous to God the Father. Just like the angels prostrating before Adam at God's command wasn't idolatrous to God.


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Siam:
As a Muslim, I see no logical reason for an "incarnation"
1) God is always present---he is not limited by time and space---but permeates all
2) God is Most Knowledgable---therefore does not lack in ANY knowledge
3) God has no needs/desires---because he does not "lack" and therefore does not "acquire"
4) Human beings acquire knowledge through experience/learning and by seeking knowledge, we can come to understand God in some small measure through his creation and through his attributes.
The reasons you supplied for an incarnation are inadequate.

1) You seem to link incarnation to "lack" with God. You don't seem to think that this could be supererogatory on God's part at all. Basically just an expression of the FREEDOM of God to do what he wills. That's interesting...

2) If you feel like free loving identification is an inadequate reason, I can't stop you. But what we are talking about is the PHILOSOPHICAL and METAPHYSICAL VIABILITY of it happening. You can't just say that just because you can't see a reason for incarnation that it cannot or did not happen. That doesn't work.
I keep asking you my 3 questions and you keep on NOT directly answering. Why is that? Let me post them...AGAIN...

-------------------------------------------------

For ease of reference, when I say "my depiction of the hypostatic union", I am specifically talking about the following:

Jesus of Nazerath, born of Mary by the power of the "Breath" of God, is a single person having two natures (uncreated "speech", "Word/Memra*" of God /created, human soul and body) in his singularity of existence JUST LIKE a single electron has two natures (wave, non-locality / particle, locality) in it's singularity of existence.

So....

1) Is my depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus contrary to logic? If so, please explain how.

2) Is my depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus incomprehensible to reason? If so, please show where and how.

3) Is my depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus antithetical to fundmental beliefs in Islamic metaphysics (ala Qur'an as "uncreated speech" and the heavenly archetypal "Mother of the Book") ? If so, please show where and how.

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* The Memra as a cosmic power furnished Philo the corner-stone upon which he built his peculiar semi-Jewish philosophy. Philo's "divine thought," "the image" and "first-born son" of God, "the archpriest," "intercessor," and "paraclete" of humanity, the "arch type of man" (see Philo), paved the way for the Christian conceptions of the Incarnation ("the Word become flesh") and the Trinity.
​
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Complementarity.

The complementarity principle states that some objects have multiple properties that appear to be contradictory. Sometimes it is possible to switch back and forth between different views of an object to observe these properties, but in principle, it is impossible to view both at the same time, despite their simultaneous coexistence in reality. For example, we can think of an electron as either a particle or a wave, depending on the situation. An object that's both a particle and a wave would seem to be impossible because, normally, such things are mutually exclusive. Nonetheless, an electron is truly both at once.

Using this as analogy, there is a relationship of COMPLEMENTARITY between the Uncreated "Word/Memra" of God the Father and a created human body and soul in the ONE human being, Jesus of Nazareth.


​
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

I am asking again, Siam. Could you please respond to my 3 questions? These involve the philosophical VIABILITY of a hypostatic union between the Uncreated and Created in Jesus.

Pretty, pretty please? Do I have to beg or what? :uuh:
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

And let me deal with this, too...

YO: I'd have to say that you are VERY INACCURATE on this, Peacelover. Even a cursory reading of his belief shows that he DEFINITELY believed just what Siam said...

Peacelover: FYI…..Fanaa or "the union of man with God"; basically mysticism, is a heresy!!..there is nothing as such in Islam…and in fact it is punishable both in this world and the Hereafter….i mean what do these people think when they innovate such things ?! Al-Hallaj was a HERETIC and for this claim of his; "Anal Haqq"- "I'm the Reality" he was publicly executed as an APOSTATE…he dared to openly claim such nonsense!! What bro Siam said is exactly what Hallaj didn't believe in...rather he said "I AM the reality ". He associated himself to God Almighty.

1) If there were no mysticism in Islam, there would be no Sufism...at all. But there IS Sufism. And Sufism is INHERENTLY mystical. Read books on it, sister. So what are you saying?

2) The concept of faana is very consistent with other strains of mysticism in other religions, as well as the (misunderstood) language use. Mystics in other religions have been killed for use of language that was out of the norm for the religion.

3) If you genuinely believe that when Al-Hallaj said "I am the truth" that he believed that he was no one other than Allah Himself, I really don't know what to say for that. I guess everyone has to believe what they want to. :hmm:
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

YO: Christianly speaking, it's IMPOSSIBLE to "worship" Jesus as exalted Lord and Messiah...and NOT worship and glorify God the Father who exalted and anointed Jesus as such!

Siam: which results in most Christians creating an anthropomorphic image of God (Sistine Chapel) and falling into idol worship. That is why Jesus Christ(pbuh) said to worship God.

You are seriously missing the point with your response here, Siam. The point is that "bowing the knee" to Jesus in lordship as God's Messiah is inextricably linked to God the Father's exaltation and anointing of Jesus as that. Giving due reverence to God's Messiah is to glorify the One God who exalted him as such. And to disregard God's Messiah is to disregard God himself via proxy. A person who "bows the knee" to Jesus in Lordship doesn't disrespect God the Father in doing so.

Let me use an analogy. Let's say that you are the Cheif Executive Officer (CEO) of a company, ok? Now, let's say that you handpick a Vice President (VP) from the lower ranks of your company. Further, you tell your company...

"This person is now the Vice President of this company. I fully require and expect you all to render the due respect, attention, and productivity for her position. And to disregard her authority is to disregard the authority I demonstrated in selecting and authorizing her. Treat her like you would treat me."

Any person in the company that heard this would understand that...
1) you "exalted" this ordinary worker to being the VP
2) you require and expect due respect to your authorized choice
3) to disregard the VP is actually to disregard you as the CEO that chose her.
4) to regard and respect the VP is actually to regard and respect you as the CEO that chose her

For this analogy, let...
CEO <=> God the Father
VP <=> Jesus, God's Messiah
Other workers under CEO <=> People loyal to God the Father.

Now what I hear from Siam would be analogical to saying this: Only the CEO should receive "CEO-like" respect and authority and it should not be "transferable" or linked to the VP for any reason.

I honestly don't see how much more simple I can make this...:exhausted
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Truthseeker63:
God cannot become his own Creation.

God is not free to do this if He so chooses? Especially if it's metaphysically possible? God ain't free to do what he wants in that area?

I sure didn't get THAT memo...hehe...

:haha:
 

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