Turkey protesters hold Istanbul square after days of violent clashes

[KAding]

No, western countries are extremely uninterested in Islam, except as it becomes a problem in the context of Al Qaeda etc.

Indeed, exemplified by the fact the West has perfectly good relations with most Muslim countries, including those that claim to practice Sharia law!

 

[KAding]

Erdogan is a Muslim veiled wife and daughters that's what the contention is!

And? Many of the policies that Erdogan is pushing to, for example, allow veiled women into universities or in certain jobs are completely in line with policies in most Western countries. I personally think it completely bizarre that these things were banned before in countries like Turkey or Egypt. Good thing that Erdogan is changing that.

Western powers don't decide foreign policy on whether women can wear a veil or not. Heck, women can't even drive in Saudi Arabia and it is widely considered one the better US allies in the Arab world.

 

[جوري]

Yes innit strange? Completely on line but apparently what's good enough for Europe isn't good enough for the Muslim world!
The rest I'll classify as your inner child's rise tinted glasses

Best,

 

[KAding]

Yes innit strange? Completely on line but apparently what's good enough for Europe isn't good enough for the Muslim world!

Doesn't sound likely. Local secularists are responsible for these policies, not foreign powers. In Turkey in particular nationalist secularists like Ataturk believed it was Islamic practices that led to the downfall of the Muslim world in general and the Ottoman Empire in particular. It was for this reason Islamic practices were so heavily suppressed, not because foreign powers demanded it.

The rest I'll classify as your inner child's rise tinted glasses

I prefer to see it as an optimistic and positive outlook and worldview. Helps to combat the cynicism and suspicion that is so much part of human nature. You could try it sometimes? It might help lift the mood a little .

 

[جوري]

Doesn't sound likely. Local secularists are responsible for these policies, not foreign powers. In Turkey in particular nationalist secularists like Ataturk believed it was Islamic practices that led to the downfall of the Muslim world in general and the Ottoman Empire in particular. It was for this reason Islamic practices were so heavily suppressed, not because foreign powers demanded it.

You need to revisit that period of history using facts not opinion!

I prefer to see it as an optimistic and positive outlook and worldview. Helps to combat the cynicism and suspicion that is so much part of human nature. You could try it sometimes? It might help lift the mood a little .

I am a realist and a logician life isn't a walk in the meadows- I can understand your perspective if this life is all there's but yours isn't the religion I subscribe to!

Best,

 

[Born_Believer]

No it wasn't - Syria has been in the Russian sphere of influence pretty much since independence - which is why Russia is still backing them now. In no way could it ever have been described as a western ally.



None of these example support your argument. Spain was a Christian country invaded by Muslims - you can hardly blame them for wanting to take it back. Syria is a Russian ally, not western. And Tunisia's Arab Spring took place entirely without apparent interference from anybody - western, Muslim or any other.


No, western countries are extremely uninterested in Islam, except as it becomes a problem in the context of Al Qaeda etc.

First point, Syria and the Assad regime was constantly paraded through the West as the finest example of a so called modern Muslim nation. I live here in the UK, I think I know what the media has shown me. Add to that constant visits between Assad and the Queen.

your second point: Almost every nation on this Earth was invaded by Muslims, none originally belonged to us. Spain was that way yes but it was economically strong and had trade routes with the rest of Christian Europe...much like modern day Turkey. My point was in response to your point that the West would not intervene with an economically stable country with which they traded. My point is highly relevant to that. And are you serious about Tunisia? The Guardian reported years ago that the US was carrying out covert operations within the country...what were they there for? Making cups of tea and feeding the people biscuits?

Your third point: Well what can I say other then may be you should get out more.

 

[Born_Believer]

The most important point on this topic is simple really, Turkey has had a democratic process for decades, the people voted in Erdogan, if it really was a purely internal struggle then the people know they can vote again in a few years time and if there really is the type of support against Erdogan that we are hearing of, he will lose the election. It is highly hypocritical of the West and it's media to paint Erdogan and his police force in the light of the oppressor considering that the British police has done exactly the same in recent years, the student protests of a couple years ago being a particular highlight of the police's brutality and the government's oppressive view of this so called "democracy".

Let us get our own house in order before we start pointing fingers.

 

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

I am confused. I have read that islam and western kind of democracy don´t mix together. But Erdogan (who I respect a lot as a leader by his works and politics) became elected by democratic elections. Now he is leader because of western democratic election process.

In the western kind of democracy is always opposition, which has right to disagree (that is the role of the most of western democracies).

So, mostly opposition doesn´t conquer a park... but this might be they style to keep political discussion.

 

[Independent]

First point, Syria and the Assad regime was constantly paraded through the West as the finest example of a so called modern Muslim nation

Assad's wife is British born and glamorous, which got them a certain amount of coverage in the glossies. But to suggest that this amounts to Syria being an ally of the west, or an ideal Muslim nation from a western point of view, is very wild of the mark indeed. Look at their armaments - all Soviet, not just now but going back for decades. Look at Syria in the Israeli wars. Look at Syria's role in Lebanon and especially the 1980s hostage crises, which had a powerful affect in Britain. Show me some mainstream UK reference sources to prove your point.

Almost every nation on this Earth was invaded by Muslims, none originally belonged to us. Spain was that way yes but it was economically strong and had trade routes with the rest of Christian Europe...much like modern day Turkey. My point was in response to your point that the West would not intervene with an economically stable country with which they traded.

This is too far back in history to make such a comparison. 'The west' did not yet exist as a concept and the ideal of trade-not-war as a model for international relations was not on the agenda.

The Guardian reported years ago that the US was carrying out covert operations within the country...what were they there for?

Can't really judge this without seeing the report. Do many people think the Tunisian revolution was a western fabrication? Haven't seen much of that around, apart from the people who think everything is a western put up job. And I thought most Muslims approved of the change of regime? Not sure what this proves.

Your third point: Well what can I say other then may be you should get out more.

Thank you for your kind suggestion. Nevertheless, the fact remains that the west in general lost interest in Islam after it ceased to be a military threat in the 18th century, and has only become more interested lately post the Iranian hostage crisis, 9/11 etc.

 

[Born_Believer]

Independent you have your views. many of which, especially of this so called "lack of interest with Islam in the West" are in my opinion plain wrong. I do not wish to offend and will simply end this year. Agree to disagree I think.

 

[Independent]

I do not wish to offend and will simply end this year. Agree to disagree I think.

.....ok!

 

[جوري]

Pls disregard what the under educated are saying.
Here's an article with full political analysis of what western countries are planning and have in mind for Turkey specifically - stick into google translate!
And generally reach for domestic papers - insiders know more about what's going on than random shills on the web!

http://islammemo.cc/akhbar/arab/2013/06/19/174469.html

 

[KAding]

Here's an article with full political analysis of what western countries are planning and have in mind for Turkey specifically - stick into google translate!
And generally reach for domestic papers - insiders know more about what's going on than random shills on the web!

http://islammemo.cc/akhbar/arab/2013/06/19/174469.html

Sorry, the Google Translate is a bit shabby . Am I right that two foreign parties are blamed in this story: foreign creditors (something with the IMF?) and Alawites?

 

[جوري]

Has to do with not using the banking system designed to have countries and their people at their knees and his stance to the Syrian revolution!

Best,

 

[Born_Believer]

Has to do with not using the banking system designed to have countries and their people at their knees and his stance to the Syrian revolution!

Best,

The exact same reason why Gaddafi was over thrown, he refused to deal with the IMF amongst many other so called misdemeanors.

 

[Independent]

With regard to the IMF, Turkey has just paid off its loan so it is free from obligation to this institution. Erdogan deserves praise for this. However, in the same period private sector debt has soared as Turkey effectively moves from being a 'statist' economy to a free market, private industry economy. So there are still vulnerabilities in the economy.

Also interesting to note is that the IMF, if it is supposed to be an instrument of control of the west over the second/third world, is changing its customer profile. Increasingly it is western economies who are the major borrowers as a result of the financial crisis.

Which is exactly what you would expect if the IMF is in fact exactly what it claims to be - a bank of last resort for indebted nations - rather than the instrument of an obscure international conspiracy:

“The customer profile of the IMF is changing,” Burak Kanli, chief economist at Finans Invest in Istanbul, said by phone yesterday. “In the decades before the crisis its customers were Turkey, Indonesia, Mexico, Brazil. Now it’s most of Europe - eastern and western. Turkey paying off its debt and becoming a creditor to the IMF is a result of this changing customer profile.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...asks-surge-in-private-debt-turkey-credit.html

 

[جوري]

Economies will be vulnerable the world over if they follow Rothschild/ Rockefeller economic theory of finance and get their news on inertia and status quo from Bloomberg!
And of course they'll be fought every step of the way!
You can't dream of thinking outside their matrix!

Even 12 year old girls have broken it down to others but who cares about the welfare of 90% of the world's population when it's all about the welfare of the colonial settler cockroach state and its poodle allies!

 

[~Zaria~]

​

7 Reasons Why You Should Support Erdogan and Not the Protesters

Posted by: Muhammad Wajid Akhter



To all those who were sympathetic to the protests in Turkey, it can sometimes feel like you're living in a different world from your opponents. After all, the media portrays you as artistic freedom loving environmentalist freedom fighters. They tell you time and time again that this is the Turkish spring and that you are the voice of the new young and free Turks leading your country back from the abyss of an autocratic and out of touch dictator. So why don't the others see this? How could they possibly support Erdogan? Well, here are a few reasons (in no particular order) that I hope might help you understand why the majority of the Muslim world support Erdogan and not your protests.


1. Because the support of Islamophobes troubles us



To even the most jaded Muslim, it is disconcerting to see the whole-hearted support that the protesters have received from the who's who of the neo-conservative and Islamophobic worlds. Most of these people have never once expressed an interest in Turkey except to decry any attempts for the nation to get more in touch with Islam. The fact that Robert Spencer (compared Muslims to Nazis), Pamella Geller (says Mecca and Madīnah can be bombed), the Greek government (won't allow the building of mosques) and Israel (no introduction needed) think that the protests are a good idea should make you reflect on exactly what they hope the protests will achieve.


2. Because the bias shown by the Western media is suspicious





The protesters were understandably upset when their actions didn't make it on to all the Turkish TV stations. In fact, one of the abiding themes of the protest has been centered around the farce of one station showing a documentary on penguins instead of the protests. However, exactly the opposite situation took hold outside of Turkey with most Western media outlets giving non-stop rolling coverage of the protests and hastily dubbing it the “Turkish spring.” The bias was so stark that there was hardly any attempt at finding the opinion of the pro-Erdogan public. Add to this the complete lack of coverage of similar protests in Bangladesh (this time the protesters were Islamic orientated and thousands were actually killed during a media blackout) and you get more than a whiff of hypocrisy at play.


3. Because of the breath-taking hypocrisy of others







The European Union and others have quickly stood up to berate Turkey and Erdogan for the way they have handled the protests. It is true that the death of protesters (and a policeman) is unjustifiable and tragic. But Europe and America have had their fair share of protests in the past few years and they have dealt with them in a remarkably similar manner. Whether it is the anti-austerity riots in Athens, the Occupy protest on Wall Street or the student riots in London, the playbook has been exactly the same. So why have Turkey and Erdogan being singled out for criticism? Can it be that there is another agenda at play here? Many of us fear this is the case.


4. Because Erdogan made Turkey a force once more



For those with short memories, it was not long ago that Turkey was a backwater of Europe. It was the country of doner kebabs, belly dancers, military coups and spiralling inflation. It was a nation that was rejected by the West despite desperately trying to be part of it and rejecting the East because of its reminder of an Empire long gone. But in the last ten years, Erdogan has managed to pull off a remarkable transformation of the reputation of Turkey and the Turks both in the East and the West. It is now well respected as much for its economic development as the moral leadership it provides in the Islamic world. Today, Turkey sits near the top of the world stage as a voice to be reckoned with, a force in the world rather than a page in the history books. Trying to turn back the clock seems, at best, myopic.


5. Because some things can't be measured






Even his most ardent critics have to admit that Erdogan and his colleagues have transformed Turkey from an economic laughing stock to one of the most powerful economies in the world. The stats are impressive: Reducing inflation from 65% to 6%, increasing the education budget 5 fold, repaying the IMF debt and making Turkey into one of the worlds leading tourist destinations are just some of the many achievements that would have been a dream a little more than 10 years ago. This is not just idle boasting. These results are concrete proof of a lack of corruption, enviable business acumen and true loyalty to the nation. The financial success is hard to overstate with many Turks (especially the rural majority) having adequate education, healthcare and social mobility within reach for the first time in generations. The only people who can so easily discount and trivialise this achievement are the upper classes who are comically displaying how out of touch they are with the previous suffering of the masses.


6. Because Hundreds of Millions across the world admire him





For more than 400 years, Turkey was the leader of the Muslim world. For reasons that are beyond the scope of this article, that relationship broke down spectacularly. In the last ten years, this has changed. When Muslims feel themselves abandoned in a tough situation, one of the few Muslim leaders who can be relied on to give moral support is Erdogan. Ask the Bangladeshi scholars who are on death row on politically motivated charges. Ask the Rohingya refugees who were visited by the Turkish Foreign Minister and Erdogan's wife. Ask the Palestinians who he has pledged to support when others shun them. Ask the Egyptians, Tunisians and Libyans who Erdogan was one of the first Muslim leaders to speak up for. Ask the Syrian refugees who find safe haven in Turkey thanks to Erdogan taking a brave and quick stand against his former strategic ally. Erdogan has won the admiration and the love of Muslims across the world. When we see the protesters saying that this man is a fascist, it is a description that we not only do not recognise, but find deeply offensive.


7. Because the pious majority will not be oppressed any more





The Turkish protesters may feel themselves to be the underdogs at the present time, but they should not forget that for more than 80 years it was they that held power in Turkey. During these 80 years, the treatment that the pious majority of Turks received can only be described as oppression. Turning mosques into museums, banning adhaans, banning the Fez, closing medressas – the scope of the oppression was wide ranging and all pervasive. To give you just one example – Erdogan's wife herself could not attend many functions in the early years of his rule simply because she wore a hijab. To give you another, the popular mayor of Istanbul (Erdogan) was jailed for simply reciting an Islamic poem. Where were the howls of protest then? Where was the indignation? In fact, we see the protesters engaged in glimpses of the same behaviour by the way they have vandalised and desecrated Mosques during their protests. The truth is that the majority of Turks are slowly turning back to a more natural and comfortable relationship with their faith and their fellow believers. They will not accept living in a state of fear and intimidation by the kemalists, communists or '-ists' of any kind.


Not everything Erdogan does is good or right. He is a politician and like other politicians, his calculations are not above criticism or censure. If those protesting in Turkey today want to save a few trees in Istanbul, then they will find that many will support them and be sympathetic towards their cause. They may even succeed. If, however, they want to bring down the most successful (by almost any measure) and popular democratically elected government that the Turkish people have had in more than a century, then they will fail. The message from the pious majority of Turks is clear. Your time is over. We are all Erdogan now.

http://muslimmatters.org/2013/06/17...rdogan-and-not-the-protesters/#comment-123224

 

[KAding]

7 Reasons Why You Should Support Erdogan and Not the Protesters

A good and honest opinion piece and one that understands that this is an internal ideological conflict in Turkey and not the IMF/CIA/etc at work. In many ways I agree with the piece also and I completely understand why a pious Muslim would support Erdogan in this.

I just hope Turkey does not move from one extreme to the other. It is good the excessive secularism that was so prevalent in Turkey before is being tamed by Erdogan. But if Turkey now moves into the other extreme then they'll just move from one form of oppression hitting one social group to another form hitting another group. Turkey has a very big secularized minority, their wishes should also be respected.

 

[جوري]

The dawn of secularism is long over and such is the downfall of democracy for the longest time a minority usurping majority wishes and laws not sure what you'd like respected? If they can't wait to shed their clothes and bed hookers and break out in a homosexual parade they can always move to holland!
Internal conflicts are often very heavily funded from the outside they love to come in after a fire has caused an all time fatigue it leaves them with little struggle by way of huge conflict!

Lastly Islam is what's right all other laws are extremes that swim in the tides of men's lunacy!

Best,