Turkey protesters hold Istanbul square after days of violent clashes

[observer]

Those who've a vested interest in seeing a strong model for an Islamic country with a stable economy collapse!

But who is that? Because I can't see that a financially weaker Turkey is of benefit as a potential EU partner to either Western Europe or the US.

 

[جوري]

See what you want to see!

 

[observer]

See what you want to see!

But I'm asking you a direct question - who do you think this benefits? I see no beneficiaries, what am I missing?

 

[جوري]

But I'm asking you a direct question - who do you think this benefits? I see no beneficiaries, what am I missing?

My job here isn't to teach you. This is for people who are already advanced in world affairs, not for trolls, malingerers and provocateurs- not only am I not in the mood but my computer isn't helping!

 

[observer]

My job here isn't to teach you. This is for people who are already advanced in world affairs, not for trolls, malingerers and provocateurs- not only am I not in the mood but my computer isn't helping!

If asking questions makes one a "troll, malingerer or provocateur" then I'm glad to be one. How else can you understand anything without asking? If you don't have an answer, fair enough. I'll stop asking.

 

[Muhammad]

Let us please stick to the topic of this thread and avoid insulting each other. A number of posts have already been deleted/edited.

 

[Independent]

................

 

[KAding]

But I'm asking you a direct question - who do you think this benefits? I see no beneficiaries, what am I missing?

I don't really see it either. At best one can say that there may be some internal political forces in Turkey that can benefit from destabilization. In particular the 'old' secular parties and movement that want to undermine the popularity of Erdogan and the AKP. Much of Erdogans popularity is due to the good economic times in Turkey lately But of course, this strategy would only work if people would not blame the protesters for any economic damage.

In reality foreign parties care mostly about a stable and economically vibrant Turkey with which it is easy to trade, and that is exactly what the AKP has achieved the last 10 years or so. So I don't see why anyone foreign power would want to undermine that.

No, this is clearly an internal Turkish conflict. It is based on the exact same division that is so prevalent throughout the Muslim world: the Islamic vs. secular ideological spit. This together with the Sunni <-> Sh'ia split is clearly one of the biggest destabilizing factors in the region.

 

[جوري]

'Foreign parties' care only for a stable somewhat obsequious Turkey that enables american bases and is a friend to israel not a strong autonomous turkey with an Islamic model for the region to follow or be allied with that demands apologies when its nationals are executed by the colonial settler state!
It doesn't require much celebration - I am not sure if you believe in what you write or really that clueless!

Best,

 

[Born_Believer]

I don't really see it either. At best one can say that there may be some internal political forces in Turkey that can benefit from destabilization. In particular the 'old' secular parties and movement that want to undermine the popularity of Erdogan and the AKP. Much of its popularity is of course also due to the good economic times in Turkey lately. But of course, this strategy would only work if people would not blame the protesters for any economic damage.

In reality foreign parties care mostly about a stable and economically vibrant Turkey with which it is easy to trade, and that is exactly what the AKP has achieved the last 10 years or so. So I don't see why anyone foreign power would want to undermine that.

No, this is clearly an internal Turkish conflict. It is based on the exact same division that is so prevalent throughout the Muslim world: the Islamic vs. secular ideological spit. This together with the Sunni <-> Sh'ia split is clearly one of the biggest destabilizing factors in the region.

There is a definite aim to destabilise Turkey, with that I agree but your other points are not so correct. Of course certain internal forces are pushing for removal of Erdogan and other party members but these internal forces are being guided and cajoled by Western intelligence agencies. I'm not sure why the US/UK/France/Germany would care for an economical stable Turkey, yes they have had very good links with the country for many years but for much of that time Turkey was a secular state. Erdogan has slowly edged Turkey towards a more Islamic state and society. Any leader which has attempted such things in the past has attacked by Western intelligence agencies.

So these people in Turkey, involved in trying to over throw a peaceful government are supported in numerous ways by the CIA and all its affiliates.

 

[observer]

There is a definite aim to destabilise Turkey, with that I agree but your other points are not so correct. Of course certain internal forces are pushing for removal of Erdogan and other party members but these internal forces are being guided and cajoled by Western intelligence agencies. I'm not sure why the US/UK/France/Germany would care for an economical stable Turkey,

Because of the proposed EU membership for one. There is no reason why Europe and the US would want Turkey destabilised. A strong, financially sound Turkey is what the EU needs when they join.

 

[جوري]

Who says that a strong economic system is the reason for a country to be a member if the EU? How does this apply to countries like Bulgaria or Greece or Slovenia, Latvia or malta etc. do you make up the conditions for membership based on your personal beliefs.?

 

[observer]

Who says that a strong economic system is the reason for a country to be a member if the EU?
How does this apply to countries like Bulgaria or Greece or Slovenia etc.?

All these countries had to satisfy economic conditions to join. That many countries are in a bad way now bears no relation to that (Greece for example lied about it's finances initially to ease entry). With the state of the EU, and of the Eurozone especially, another country in need of fiscal support is the last thing any EU country wants. It'd be another nail in it's own coffin.

 

[Born_Believer]

Because of the proposed EU membership for one. There is no reason why Europe and the US would want Turkey destabilised. A strong, financially sound Turkey is what the EU needs when they join.

Syria was one of the West's greatest allies before the US and UK turned against it, what was the reasoning for that?

What you must understand is that we Muslims are targeted, no matter how great and beneficial our economies may be. We aren't being attacked simply for resources or for personal gain, we are being attacked for out way of life and the fact that our religion is the truth. A secular Turkey, even if it is economically weakened will be loved and embraced by the West.

Did the economic power of Spain half a millennium ago stop it from being attacked? The close ties of Syria or Tunisia with the West stop it from being attacked? I could go on and on about the situation with a million more examples but this should suffice.

 

[جوري]

That's what you proclaim but it has no basis in reality!
Not very difficult and per your pal in an earlier thread to have a complete economic picture of any member country!
The nail in the coffin is coming anyway!

 

[Independent]

Syria was one of the West's greatest allies before the US and UK turned against it

No it wasn't - Syria has been in the Russian sphere of influence pretty much since independence - which is why Russia is still backing them now. In no way could it ever have been described as a western ally.

Did the economic power of Spain half a millennium ago stop it from being attacked? The close ties of Syria or Tunisia with the West stop it from being attacked? I could go on and on about the situation with a million more examples but this should suffice.

None of these example support your argument. Spain was a Christian country invaded by Muslims - you can hardly blame them for wanting to take it back. Syria is a Russian ally, not western. And Tunisia's Arab Spring took place entirely without apparent interference from anybody - western, Muslim or any other.

We aren't being attacked simply for resources or for personal gain, we are being attacked for out way of life and the fact that our religion is the truth

No, western countries are extremely uninterested in Islam, except as it becomes a problem in the context of Al Qaeda etc.

 

[KAding]

There is a definite aim to destabilise Turkey, with that I agree but your other points are not so correct. Of course certain internal forces are pushing for removal of Erdogan and other party members but these internal forces are being guided and cajoled by Western intelligence agencies.

Based on what evidence? What motives do Western countries have to destabilize Turkey? All-in-all Turkey is a good friend of the West. I can't think of a single major contentious issue between any of the major Western powers and Turkey. Turkey is a partner in NATO and there isn't any prospect of that changing. Even on Syria Western powers and Turkey are on the same line.

Sure, Turkey has changed over the last decade or so, especially economically, but how have any of these changes negatively impacted Western countries?

I'm not sure why the US/UK/France/Germany would care for an economical stable Turkey, yes they have had very good links with the country for many years but for much of that time Turkey was a secular state. Erdogan has slowly edged Turkey towards a more Islamic state and society. Any leader which has attempted such things in the past has attacked by Western intelligence agencies.

An economically strong Turkey is good for trade. More trade is good for European businesses as well, which means more employment and more money. What policy in particular has Erdogan pursued that is against Western interests?

I think you are completely overrating the importance of Islam in Western foreign policy. Most Western countries have perfectly good relations with Saudi Arabia or the Gulf States for example. Yet these countries cleary have a considerably more "Islamic state and society". Erdogan and the AKP are simply not an enemy of the West.

So these people in Turkey, involved in trying to over throw a peaceful government are supported in numerous ways by the CIA and all its affiliates.

Again, based on what evidence? Don't you agree that leftists and secularists in Turkey have plenty of reasons themselves why the would demonstrate against Erdogan? They don't need a CIA to tell them that. The CIA doesn't and can't pay tens of thousands of demonstrators to protest. This is an internal Turkish political conflict.

 

[KAding]

Syria was one of the West's greatest allies before the US and UK turned against it, what was the reasoning for that?

^o). Since when? Relations between the Assad regime and the West have always been very very difficult. Just think of the Syrian conflict with Israel, the good relations it has with Iran, its role in Lebanon, it clearly choosing the side of the Soviet Union during the Cold War, etc...

What you must understand is that we Muslims are targeted, no matter how great and beneficial our economies may be. We aren't being attacked simply for resources or for personal gain, we are being attacked for out way of life and the fact that our religion is the truth. A secular Turkey, even if it is economically weakened will be loved and embraced by the West.

I think Erdogan is a moderate. Sure, he is a conservative who values Islamic traditions. But he can in no way be compared to, say, Ayatollah Khomeini or other quite extreme believers in the virtues of Islamic government. Right now I would be more concerned about Erdogans desire to stay in power than his supposed desire to turn Turkey into an Islamic state.

It is a mistake to believe that (1) Islam is by definition the enemy of the West and (2) Western governments by definition see Islam as an enemy.

 

[observer]

What you must understand is that we Muslims are targeted, no matter how great and beneficial our economies may be. We aren't being attacked simply for resources or for personal gain, we are being attacked for out way of life and the fact that our religion is the truth.

No, you're not. That is an incredibly paranoid viewpoint not borne out by any facts.

 

[جوري]

Erdogan is a Muslim veiled wife and daughters that's what the contention is!

You've not been accurate with other things on this thread neither is your pal so why should your thoughts on the matter actually matter?

Best,