"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

The devil is the enemy of our souls. When we purpose in our hearts to follow the narrow road, which there are few that find, as Jesus mentions, then, we pose a threat to Satan's realm. In fact, Jesus warns us to beware of false prophets who come to you dressed in sheep’s clothing. That means appear to you to be from God. Satan is a master at it.

Yes, just as you hold Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a false prophet, so do we Muslims hold Paul and other NT authors who claim Jesus was God incarnate.

Quran 35:4-7 O Prophet! If they deny you, so were the Rasools denied before you. All affairs shall ultimately be presented before Allah. O mankind! Certainly the promise of Allah is true, therefore let not the life of this world deceive you nor let the chief deceiver (Satan) deceive you about Allah. Surely Shaitan (Satan) is your enemy: so take him as an enemy. He is inviting his adherents towards his way so that they may become companions of the blazing fire. Those who disbelieve shall have a terrible punishment, and those who believe and do good deeds shall have forgiveness and a magnificent reward.

Anyone who tries to mislead Muslims from the Staight Path towards Hell is a mortal enemy indeed.

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Yes, just as you hold Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a false prophet, so do we Muslims hold Paul and other NT authors who claim Jesus was God incarnate.

Anyone who tries to mislead Muslims from the Straight Path towards Hell is a mortal enemy indeed.

Satan is a master deceiver. He's deceived you into thinking you are ON the Straight Path, when in reality you are on the Broad Way that leads to destruction. What Christians want is for everyone to be on the path to heaven. We know that won't happen because Jesus said:

Matthew 7:
13. "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14. "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves."

For you to accept Christ as your Savior and Lord in many parts of the world would be very "difficult"---in a Muslim country it can mean almost certain death. Certainly your family would disown you, feeling you had dishonored and betrayed them. Compare that with the freedom we enjoy in America. Anyone can believe anything, or nothing, they want. But even here, your family might still disown you. Blood isn't always thicker than water. But there again, Jesus warned His would-be followers:

Luke 12:
51. "Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.
52. "For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three.
53. "Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.''

Matthew 10:
35. "For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.'
36. "And 'a man's foes will be those of his own household.'"

The Path to heaven is Jesus. "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no man comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

If you are so established in your faith, I wouldn't be causing you problems. I seems like Christianity is the big problem for Muslims. No other religion appears to be a threat. When I read the Qur'an I see Muhammad blasting away, mostly if not all, the concepts of Christianity. Why didn’t he attack the concepts behind Buddhism, Hinduism and all the other different eastern religions or other religions of the world? That is because the devil fights Christianity, because that is the strongest force against the kingdom of darkness. The devil is the enemy of our souls. When we purpose in our hearts to follow the narrow road, which there are few that find, as Jesus mentions, then, we pose a threat to Satan's realm. In fact, Jesus warns us to beware of false prophets who come to you dressed in sheep’s clothing. That means appear to you to be from God. Satan is a master at it. He knows Christianity and Islam better than us all. I know I am a sinner. I look in the mirror and see the truth about myself. The heart of man is desperately wicked who can know it? I thank God very time I write you that I won’t be judged based on my works whether I have tipped the scale to go to paradise. All those depending on that system will be in outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

We feel threat for nothing. Truth has be made clear from error.

 

[ummzayd]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

If you are so established in your faith, I wouldn't be causing you problems. I seems like Christianity is the big problem for Muslims. No other religion appears to be a threat. When I read the Qur'an I see Muhammad blasting away, mostly if not all, the concepts of Christianity. Why didn’t he attack the concepts behind Buddhism, Hinduism and all the other different eastern religions or other religions of the world? That is because the devil fights Christianity, because that is the strongest force against the kingdom of darkness. The devil is the enemy of our souls. When we purpose in our hearts to follow the narrow road, which there are few that find, as Jesus mentions, then, we pose a threat to Satan's realm. In fact, Jesus warns us to beware of false prophets who come to you dressed in sheep’s clothing. That means appear to you to be from God. Satan is a master at it. He knows Christianity and Islam better than us all. I know I am a sinner. I look in the mirror and see the truth about myself. The heart of man is desperately wicked who can know it? I thank God very time I write you that I won’t be judged based on my works whether I have tipped the scale to go to paradise. All those depending on that system will be in outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. :raging: hew

I see that your posts become extremely insulting towards Islam and the Prophet pbuh sometimes. Is it possible for you to contain your rage and have a better attitude when you come here, to an Islamic board, to debate and discuss?

 

[ummzayd]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

So, then what does one do. Well, some have said that God weighs our deeds and intentions, but this is the same as saying that we can be good enough. That somehow the scales of our actions will tip in our favor. And yet that is contradictory to what has already been expressed regarding our inability to measure up. So, again, we are simply back to depending wholly on God's unmerited mercy toward us, and that is the Christian definition of grace.

So ultimately both Islam and Christianity are grace based salvation experiences. The difference between them is whether or not Christ can play a role in anyone's life other than his own. The Muslim says "No, we are each judged on our own actions." But that gets us back to works again. The Christian says, "Yes, we are judged on the basis of our relationship with God in Christ, because of the cross." But honestly, if the Christian will look at it more deeply, that also gets us back to works. However, this time it is not the person's work, but Christ's work. Christ being not God's partner, but humanities partner.

Is this fair, that Christ's work should count for us? Is this justice? No. But then again, we are not talking about fairness or justice any more, we are talking about mercy. Is this mercy? Indeed it is, toward us, while his justice is satisfied by Christ's offering of his own life in our place. Which again isn't fair, and that is why it is called a sacrifice. It wasn't something Christ had to do, it was something he willed to do in order that by his work (a work we ourselves could not do) he might reconcile humanity to God.

So Islam and Christianity ultimately look toward the same end, that God will be merciful In Islam it is in God's nature to not be just but to be mericul. In Christianity we see both -- God's justice is satisfied on the cross, God's mercy is grant to us. Muslims want the mercy without the justice, and God just doesn't work that way is the Christian response.

I am so glad that at least you can admit that the doctrine of atonement is unjust and unfair.

I think there is one fundemental reason why both camps are in a way talking at cross purposes - according to the Christian understanding (I believe - correct me if I am wrong) God created the first Man (& Woman) as perfect beings. that is why a sacrifice is demanded to atone for the sin they committed. In Islam however, sinning is expected - because God created humankind with free will, and furthermore tests us with both trials and blessings.

I see that it has been put forward here that according to God's justice, sin must be punished, that is one reason why it is impossible for us humans to get into heaven without the blood of Christ. When we talk of God's justice, it is true to say that His judgement is actually weighed heavily in favour of The Accused. You may call it against God's justice that all that is required to forgive our sins is that we ask Him for that with a sincere heart. and on the day of judgement He will cleanse us and make us pure and perfect, and enter us into paradise, just because we ask Him with sincerity for that. Just as Grace Seeker says above, it is certainly NOT JUST that an innocent is slaughtered in order to grant the guilty paradise.

Therefore you may conclude that 'injustice' applies in both cases.

Personally I prefer the alledged 'injustice' of forgiving the sins of those who worship God and ask His forgiveness for their sins, above the clear injustice of slaughter of an innocent and washing the sins of the guilty with his blood.

peace

(I hope I was able to convey my meaning, I am really tired and my two youngest are literally climbing all over me).

 

[snakelegs]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

around and around we go insult after insult, yet no one (admin)seems to be noticing that or the fact that relentless preaching/promotion of something other than Islam is going on.

yes, i've wondered about that also.

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

No wonder this guy is a former Muslim... where did he get his knowledge from? Anti-Islamic websites? The Prophet knew fully well that he was granted Paradise.

Looks like you friend never had much knowledge to begin with.


We are saved because of our own actions and the Mercy of God. It is called justice. Don't expect an evil sinning Muslim to enter paradise without being punished. That is not just.

No wonder your religion has so little rules that you need to follow. No one would follow them even if they did exist because they already think they are saved.

I don't know that I am covered. That is why I continue to do good deeds and strive in the way of Allah, because I need it. If I knew I was already guaranteed paradise I would not do half the good deeds I do now.

By the way, it is very arrogant of you to think you are guaranteed Paradise- you are not deed yet. You could die an atheist for all you know.




Yeh, a solid foundation based on a book whose authenticity is disputed. :rollseyes



Yeh, same goes to Christianity, we believe in the more or less the same prophets, duh.



To the Muslim, God is well above all that you attribute to Him and your sin of attributing a Son to Him is so great that it even the mountains would crumble upon being exposed it, had God not protected them that.

To the Muslim, we know that God is Just and so would not punish an innocent with the sins of others, let alone allow Himself to be punished at the hands of His creation!! What blasphemy! We are all held accountable for our own deeds.

We know that our fate is in our own hands, and by doing good deeds ourselves and hoping for the Mercy of Allah we will be saved.

Paradise is for those who do good, not for lip service.

You have said some things I agree with, but for the most part, I think you have me wrong. It is really true that we have very few rules, basically just two: Love God with all your heart soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself. It is simple, but when you try to live those two rules or commands, you will see that it is not easy. It is down right impossible for me (I think for all people), but with God all things are possible. I have looked at myself in the mirror after asking God to show me what he sees. I saw the man in the mirror: I am a spiritual mess. I used to think I was OK, but after asking God to reveal my heart, I could see how it is very wicked. In spite of all the good works I do, but I am trusting God to complete the work He started in me. I think very one should ask God, “How am I measuring up at this point?” or “How am I doing?” He will answer that prayer. He did for me, and when i saw how far I was from measuring up to how good I needed to be to be heaven bound, I gave up and surrendered my life to Him. I let go and let God finish what He started. If He doesn’t do it, my good works are just a highway to hell with all the other roads paved with good intentions that lead to the same place. You think I am arrogant, but I am not; I am boastful. My boast is in the Lord that made heaven and earth not myself.
Peace

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

All of my posts were moved. I guess I am the chief at being offensive to the Muslim community. All Christians want to see Muslims converted to Christianity. I guess I need to change something about my approach, because it doesn't seem to be very effective if very time I write something, it is moved so other Muslims won't see it. Lord, help me to have wisdom. All Muslims have said some things I agree with, but for the most part, I think you have me wrong. It is really true that we Christians have very few rules, basically just two: Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself. It is simple, but when you try to live those two rules or commands, you will see that it is not easy. It is down right impossible for me - I think for all people, but with God all things are possible. I have looked at myself in the mirror after asking God to show me what he sees. I saw the man in the mirror: I am a spiritual mess. I used to think I was OK, but after asking God to reveal my heart, I could see how it is very wicked in spite of all the good works I do, but I am trusting God to complete the work He started in me. I think everyone should ask God, “How am I measuring up at this point?” or “How am I doing?” He will answer that prayer. He did for me, and when I saw how far I was from measuring up to how good I needed to be to be heaven bound, I gave up and surrendered my life to Him. I let go and let God finish what He started in me. If He doesn’t do it, my good works are just a highway to hell with all the other roads paved with good intentions that lead to the same place. You may think I am arrogant, but I am not; I am boastful. My boast is in the Lord who made heaven and earth not in me. I am just an unprofitable servant trying to serve God by faith with my limited knowledge. I can identify with Woodrow about posting. I am tired of it. I think I have sown seed let someone else water it, and I'll praise God for the increase, cuz only He can win a heart to Himself. I’ll still peek on forum and comment once in a while, but if God wills, I will eventually stop posting as Woodrow had mentioned.
Peace

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

The reverse is also true, although I'm not here to promote any message.

Brother, as Christians, aren't we suppose to promote the gospel? "Woe is unto me if I preach not the gospel":-[

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Brother, as Christians, aren't we suppose to promote the gospel? "Woe is unto me if I preach not the gospel":-[

I can not respond for Grace keeper, but as a Mod on an Islamic forum I will state that no matter were you are it is common decency to abide by the rules.

Remember that your words have been heard by those you who you are trying to reach and we sincerely believe those are words that will send us to hellfire if we follow them. The words you find so beautiful we see as being extremely sinful and evil. We do understand that you do not see them that way. But, I doubt if you can comprehend just how blasphemous we see them as being.

Do you think it is supporting Christianity, by saying the very things that have convinced us that Christianity is deep in error. Your words are serving to reinforce our belief that some Christians are driven to drag us into Evil.

 

[vpb]

Your words are serving to reinforce our belief that some Christians are driven to drag us into Evil.

2:120 .
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Remember that your words have been heard by those you who you are trying to reach and we sincerely believe those are words that will send us to hellfire if we follow them. The words you find so beautiful we see as being extremely sinful and evil. We do understand that you do not see them that way. But, I doubt if you can comprehend just how blasphemous we see them as being.

Do you think it is supporting Christianity, by saying the very things that have convinced us that Christianity is deep in error. Your words are serving to reinforce our belief that some Christians are driven to drag us into Evil.

This is exactly the point that I have been trying to make. I hope that I have written in a way that is befitting for a Muslim.

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I can not respond for Grace keeper, but as a Mod on an Islamic forum I will state that no matter were you are it is common decency to abide by the rules.

Remember that your words have been heard by those you who you are trying to reach and we sincerely believe those are words that will send us to hellfire if we follow them. The words you find so beautiful we see as being extremely sinful and evil. We do understand that you do not see them that way. But, I doubt if you can comprehend just how blasphemous we see them as being.

Do you think it is supporting Christianity, by saying the very things that have convinced us that Christianity is deep in error. Your words are serving to reinforce our belief that some Christians are driven to drag us into Evil.

It hurts me to hear that you feel that way too. I don't understand how you find that sinfull??????:? I can't see it. I am so sorry I just can't see it or understand. :-[

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

It hurts me to hear that you feel that way too. I don't understand how you find that sinfull??????:? I can't see it. I am so sorry I just can't see it or understand. :-[

You don't understand, because your frame of reference, is different from ours. Every Muslim holds the Quran as the literal Word of Allah. The Quran is unambiguous and clear that calling Jesus the Son of God is disbelief in the Oneness of Allah and that it is putting partners with Allah. According to the Quran this is the unforgivable sin if one dies in that state without repenting.

There is no question whatsoever that Jesus and Allah are distinct. For example, Jesus prayed to Allah in Gethsemane and Jesus sits at the right hand of Allah (brought near to Allah). My opinion is that Christians are sincere and that they hoestly believe that Jesus = God; however, a Muslim hesitates to even write these words as they are extraordinarily blasphemous from our perspective.

Webster-Merriam dictionary:
Main Entry: blas·phe·my
Pronunciation: \ˈblas-fə-mē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -mies
Date: 13th century
1 a: the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God b: the act of claiming the attributes of deity
2: irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Do you think it is supporting Christianity, by saying the very things that have convinced us that Christianity is deep in error. Your words are serving to reinforce our belief that some Christians are driven to drag us into Evil.

This is one of those points in which our enthusiasm is probably our biggest enemy. Truly, I wish for my brothers and sisters in Islam that they might have the assurance of salvation that I find in my faith in Jesus Christ. Yet, I also know that what I speak of as assurance of salvation is from their perspective a source of assurance only of dam*nation.

Yet the reverse is true as well. When my Muslims brothers and sisters quote to me verses from the Qur'an or Hadith which identify my faith as being corrupted, from the devil, or otherwise label it a source of iniquity it convinces me that they have been misled. And that realization leads me to grieve for them in what I perceive as their lostness, just as they probably grieve similarly for me in what they most certainly see as my lostness.

This has led me to conclude that there is no point in simply exchange point and counter-point arguments. I will answer genuinely searching questions put to me about my faith, and will gladly share what I believe. But there is no point in me telling you what is wrong with your faith, anymore than there is in you telling me what is wrong with mine. Rather, I will tell you what I find of value in my faith and leave you to do with that information what you will. I will only exchange point for counter-point when someone makes a statement as being a Christian belief which I happen to know is not held in the way it was stated or is historically untrue.

But, other Christians may not feel they can so restrict their conversation, just like it is obvious that some Muslims cannot so restrict what they feel compelled to say. But that, at least, is where I am coming from.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

You don't understand, because your frame of reference, is different from ours. Every Muslim holds the Quran as the literal Word of Allah. The Quran is unambiguous and clear that calling Jesus the Son of God is disbelief in the Oneness of Allah and that it is putting partners with Allah. According to the Quran this is the unforgivable sin if one dies in that state without repenting.

There is no question whatsoever that Jesus and Allah are distinct. For example, Jesus prayed to Allah in Gethsemane and Jesus sits at the right hand of Allah (brought near to Allah). My opinion is that Christians are sincere and that they hoestly believe that Jesus = God; however, a Muslim hesitates to even write these words as they are extraordinarily blasphemous from our perspective.

Webster-Merriam dictionary:
Main Entry: blas·phe·my
Pronunciation: \ˈblas-fə-mē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -mies
Date: 13th century
1 a: the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God b: the act of claiming the attributes of deity
2: irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable

And here is an example of something that is not true from a Christian persepctive:

There is no question whatsoever that Jesus and Allah are distinct.

This is true only from a Muslim perspective, but not Christian.
From a Christian perspective there is no question that Jesus and the Father are distinct. We affirm that the Father is NOT the Son and the Son is NOT the Father. They are two different people. But we do not affirm that either is distinct from God. In so much as Allah is the Arabic word for God, I find that Muslims have little problem saying that when we Christians speak of the Father that we are speaking of Allah. Yet, what a strange thought that this is not considered blasphemous or adding partners to God. For the Father is no more and no less God than either the Son or the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is distinct from Allah, then so is the Father distinct from Allah. We Christians do not claim that Jesus is all there is to God, we do not claim that the Father is all there is to God, and we do not claim that Jesus and the Father are identical. What we claim that the Father and the Son (along with the Holy Spirit) though separate persons are one in essence, one individual (even though three personas are manifested), and that this being that they are in unity is God.

So the Father and God are not distinct. Nor are Jesus and God distinct. Nor are the Spirit and God distinct. But the Father and the Son and the Spirit are each distinct from the other while being at the same time one.


Now, to Islamic ears that has to sound like blasphemy. So, rather than going their immediately, lets look at the definition of blasphemy provided -- the act of claiming the attributes of deity. Yet, you do not call it blasphemy when Allah claims the attritubes of deity. Why not? Because it is not blasphemous for God to claims the attributes of diety. Thus, if it could be shown that Jesus truly was God, it would not be blasphemous.

For now, I will leave this as a BIG "IF". But will you admit that if it could be shown that Jesus truly was God, then it would not be blasphemous for him to claim the attributes of diety?

Please do not say that you know it is not true, or that the Qur'an says that saying it were true is shirk. I understand these things. So I am not asking you to admit its truth. I am just posing it as a hypothetical...IF a person could be shown to truly be God, would it still be blasphemous to ascribe to him attributes of diety?

 

[Woodrow]

Peace Gene,

I find that the intent of many Christians is good and it is few that come here with deliberate malice. But, sadly some Christians do not quite grasp the concept that we are very firm in our beliefs.

It is difficult for most people to understand that words they hold so dear and true can be seen as evil and blasphemous by members of a different faith. Yet, that is the way those of us who are Muslim do feel about some Christian beliefs. I am certain that most Christians feel the same about some of our beliefs.

A quick rule of thumb is when you visit a forum of people of a different faith, it is best we remember we are guests and it is important that we have the intelligence and integrity to know that to attempt to lead others to believe as we do will be seen as evil and considered to be blasphemy.

Those of who are of the same faith that the forum tries to promote must be aware that where will be members from other faiths. We need to be open minded and understand that they will make erroneous statements, not out of malice, but because they do not share the same beliefs. It can be frustrating and very aggravating to see their words as it is seen as an intruder coming and trying to destroy what is held to be truth.

Gentleness and Truthful answers are the only guide for peaceful debate. It is also best to know that there are some areas that there are no mutual sources acceptable for proof. When that is understood it is best to try to impose those views on the forum members. Some things do not debate well on an internet forum, and the result is angry, hurt feelings and a very gross misrepresentation of all sides of the debate.

A forum is a very poor choice of attempting to proselytize a belief other that which the forum owners are trying to present. At best it is poor manners and can only degrade what the person is trying to present.

For good and fair understanding we all need to do our best to keep our questions fair and honest and our replies truthful, based upon verified sources.
We do not have to believe each other, but we gain nothing unless we can disagree peacefully.

 

[glo]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

This has led me to conclude that there is no point in simply exchange point and counter-point arguments. I will answer genuinely searching questions put to me about my faith, and will gladly share what I believe. But there is no point in me telling you what is wrong with your faith, anymore than there is in you telling me what is wrong with mine. Rather, I will tell you what I find of value in my faith and leave you to do with that information what you will. I will only exchange point for counter-point when someone makes a statement as being a Christian belief which I happen to know is not held in the way it was stated or is historically untrue.

Hi Grace Seeker

Many of your posts have been most helpful and informative to me. I admire and appreciate the clarity with which you explain the Christian faith. You have certainly strengthened me in my walk with God immensly!

During my last year here in LI I have often felt like I needed to defend my own faith.
Strangely I feel now at peace that living the Christian faith is sometimes more teaching the Christian faith.
As Francis of Assisi is quoted to have said so beautifully: "Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary use words."

By the way, my journey into the topic of 'salvation' is most interesting and enjoyable! Perhaps I will share more at another time.

Peace

 

[Keltoi]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

This is one of those points in which our enthusiasm is probably our biggest enemy. Truly, I wish for my brothers and sisters in Islam that they might have the assurance of salvation that I find in my faith in Jesus Christ. Yet, I also know that what I speak of as assurance of salvation is from their perspective a source of assurance only of dam*nation.

Yet the reverse is true as well. When my Muslims brothers and sisters quote to me verses from the Qur'an or Hadith which identify my faith as being corrupted, from the devil, or otherwise label it a source of iniquity it convinces me that they have been misled. And that realization leads me to grieve for them in what I perceive as their lostness, just as they probably grieve similarly for me in what they most certainly see as my lostness.

This has led me to conclude that there is no point in simply exchange point and counter-point arguments. I will answer genuinely searching questions put to me about my faith, and will gladly share what I believe. But there is no point in me telling you what is wrong with your faith, anymore than there is in you telling me what is wrong with mine. Rather, I will tell you what I find of value in my faith and leave you to do with that information what you will. I will only exchange point for counter-point when someone makes a statement as being a Christian belief which I happen to know is not held in the way it was stated or is historically untrue.

But, other Christians may not feel they can so restrict their conversation, just like it is obvious that some Muslims cannot so restrict what they feel compelled to say. But that, at least, is where I am coming from.

I believe this will be my policy from now on as well. It just doesn't accomplish anything to get into these circular arguments about whose faith is right or wrong. If I see outright falsehoods about my faith or honest questions intended in the spirit of understanding then I will respond accordingly, but I will no longer respond to every little accusation I see on this forum. It's probably better that way.

 

[Grace Seeker]

One of the complaints about Christianity is that it isn't just. Granted most of us recognize that God has a beef with humanity in regard to sin(s). But for that to be set right by another being (even if it is God himself) sacrifice himself as an atonement for the first being's sins goes against our normal human concepts with regard to justice.

In one sense I admit that it isn't just, at least not human justice. My argument usually is that God's ways are above our ways and his ways are beyond our understanding. So, God's justice is not going to look like mankind's justice. In the Christian understanding of the atonement, it is God's demand for justice (a penalty for sin) that is satisfied by Christ's self-sacrifice as vicarious payment for humanity's sin. To which all outside of Christianity argue, "but that's not fair". And you are right, it has nothing to do with fairness. Fairness and justice would be humanity going to hell for our sins, but God steps into our lives to thwart that end.

So, why do we call it justice? Well, there is another definition of justice that maybe it would be helpful to look at:

Justice is about righting the underlying wrongs that create the problems in the first place. It's about restoring balance, renewing hope, and reconciling fractured communities. (See this article: Jesus Justice: So Easy a Five-Year-Old Can Do It)

Given that what happens in Jesus' sacrificial atonement is that human kind's original, but now broken, relationship with God is restored, then perhaps we can understand the Cross to fit this understanding of justice.


(Of course, this assumes that there actually is a broken relationship between God and human kind to begin with, and that vicarious offerings might have efficacy. But these are apriori assumptions in the Christian faith experience.)