"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[Phil12123]

Originally Posted by Phil12123 View Post
Jesus was brought up Jewish and He was sent to the Jews as their Messiah. His first disciples were all Jewish. So how does a follower of the Jew's Messiah end up murdering 6 million Jews? That does not compute.

it doesn't compute, but nevertheless it has been the history of christianity. the church is deep in jewish blood.

Deep in Jewish blood? I don't understand that one. Please enlighten me. Are you referring to the Catholic Inquisition or the Catholic Crusades or what? Remember, Hitler was NOT part of the Christian church, so what are you talking about?

 

[Phil12123]

This does not give any Christian a license to sin without consequences, but those consequences do not include hell, but rather chastening or chastisement from the Lord as a father would discipline his wayward child. See Hebrews 12:5-11.

What kind of punishment that is not include Hell?:?

The kind that is chastening or chastisement from the Lord as a father would discipline his wayward child. Hebrews 12:5-14 says:

5. And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6. For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives.''
7. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
8. But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.
9. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
10. For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.
11. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but grievous; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
12. Therefore strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees,
13. and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed.
14. Pursue peace with all men, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:

Do you see the difference between God's chastening, or spanking, which is corrective, and hell which is purely punishment and payment for sins without any thought of correction that afterwards brings holiness? For the Christian, whose sins have been fully paid for at Calvary, he still needs correction for his day to day sins, but those sins, already paid for, do not take him to hell. God's corrective spankings are intended to produce holiness.

God's chastening, or corrective spankings, can take the form of sickness, or other such things in our lives that He uses to get our attention to something He sees we need to deal with and repent of---have a change of mind about, to see it as He sees it. That and the Holy Spirit convicting us of that sin, is all intended for our good, quite unlike the punishment of hell.

 

[MuhammadRizan]

Salam.

i see...am i wrong if i state this.

faithful christian with good deeds will enter paradise.
faithful Christian but evildoer will receive punishment in this world but their place in heaven are guaranteed.
only unfaithful will be burn for eternity.

 

[Phil12123]

i see...am i wrong if i state this.

faithful christian with good deeds will enter paradise.
faithful Christian but evildoer will receive punishment in this world but their place in heaven are guaranteed.
only unfaithful will be burn for eternity.

Yes, but I would add...

faithful Christian with NO good deeds will enter paradise.

Let me explain that one. Good deeds don't get anyone to paradise. They merely get the faithful Christian rewards in paradise.

Ephesians 2:8-10 says:

8. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

It is by grace (God's undeserved love and kindness) that we are saved (delivered or rescued from hell) through faith (believing in and trusting in the atoning sacrifice of Christ and His resurrection), and it is not of US but of God, as a free gift (something we don't earn or do anything to get, just receive), so that no one can boast about it since they didn't deserve it and did nothing to get it except receive it by faith. Nevertheless, God, after saving us, wants us to serve Him in gratitude for what He has so richly blessed us with, including (and especially) that salvation.

Let me give you an example. On each side of Christ was crucified a thief, both of whom initially said some very unkind things to him. But one thief apparently repented, had a change of mind, and yelled at the other thief that they were getting what they deserved, but Jesus was sinless and didn't deserve what He was suffering. He then turned to Jesus and said an amazing thing, that could only be evidence of tremendous faith: "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Is that not amazing? They are all going to die, and this thief is talking about Jesus coming into a kingdom. He obviously repented and believed in Jesus. So what was Jesus' response to him? "Truly I say to you, TODAY you will be with me in paradise!"

Now, notice, the thief did not have any good deeds to help him get into Paradise. It was only repentance and faith in Jesus. That's all. But it got him in Paradise. Could he boast about it? Hey look everyone, I'm saved and going to Paradise! Not really, unless it was really a boast of God's grace toward him, because he certainly did not deserve Paradise.

That's the way Christians feel about God's "Amazing Grace" as the hymn is entitled---amazing that God would save a wretch like me. Sure, we can say, I'm saved and assured of heaven, but it's really not a boast of anything we deserve or have done anything to get. It is a free gift of God, purchased with Christ's blood, because He loved us so much. Hallelujah!!

 

[vpb]

Let me explain that one. Good deeds don't get anyone to paradise. They merely get the faithful Christian rewards in paradise.

So we can do anything we want, as long as we "believe in Jesus's crucification of washing away our sins" ????

but Jesus was sinless and didn't deserve what He was suffering.

how can you say "sinless" ??? is God tempted by evil?

 

[Phil12123]

So we can do anything we want, as long as we "believe in Jesus's crucifixion of washing away our sins" ????

Are you reading my posts? Do I need to repeat them? Did I not answer this question already? Forgive me for my impatience, but this sort of question is evidence that you have not read all that I said. I quoted Ephesians 2:8-9 that shows our salvation is ALL of God, not of us, not of our works. But I also quoted verse 10 that says we are created IN Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS. And I said, "Nevertheless, God, after saving us, wants us to serve Him in gratitude for what He has so richly blessed us with, including (and especially) that salvation." But that service, those good works, are not to get us saved or more saved. Not to get us INTO Paradise, but get us REWARDS IN Paradise. Do you see the difference?

Again, forgive me for my impatience.

how can you say "sinless" ??? is God tempted by evil?

What are you saying? To be tempted = sin ? No, to yield to temptation = sin.

What does the scripture say?

Luke 23:
40. But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
41. "And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.''
42. Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.''
43. And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.''

 

[MuhammadRizan]

salam,

okay i get it know...

But this verse is keep buggin' me..

“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mathew 27:46)

“And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)

why?

 

[vpb]

Are you reading my posts? Do I need to repeat them? Did I not answer this question already? Forgive me for my impatience, but this sort of question is evidence that you have not read all that I said. I quoted Ephesians 2:8-9 that shows our salvation is ALL of God, not of us, not of our works. But I also quoted verse 10 that says we are created IN Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS. And I said, "Nevertheless, God, after saving us, wants us to serve Him in gratitude for what He has so richly blessed us with, including (and especially) that salvation." But that service, those good works, are not to get us saved or more saved. Not to get us INTO Paradise, but get us REWARDS IN Paradise. Do you see the difference?

I read your post.
and you said that the thief did not have any good deeds, but with repentance he went to paradise.
I am also connecting it with:

Good deeds don't get anyone to paradise. They merely get the faithful Christian rewards in paradise.

but, isn't the "blood of Jesus" that paid for your sins? which I think it means that whatever you do, even if you have no good deeds, just beliving in "Jesus's blood" , your sins get washed and you get to heaven. I don't see anything else besides that you can do whatever u want , but having faith in Jesus (his blood) will save u. and there is clear verse in the bible about this.

 

[vpb]

What are you saying? To be tempted = sin ? No, to yield to temptation = sin.

When you say for someone "He was not attacked", it means that he was in danger to be attacked, but just didn't get attacked.

So when you say Jesus is sinless, you are automatically applying 'sin' term to Jesus. We never say Allah swt is sinless (astagfirullah), bc that term applies only to us.
Allah is High and has power over all things. Nobody can cause damage to HIM

 

[Woodrow]

salam,

okay i get it know...

But this verse is keep buggin' me..

“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mathew 27:46)

“And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)

why?

I have often wondered why those are the only words that were kept in Aramaic. Although they are attributed to Jesus(as), I have doubts of that, as we know Jesus(as), was not crucified and those were the words spoken by the man that the people believed to be Jesus.

To me the importance of the words being in Aramaic is to distinguish the man who was crucified from Jesus(as). It is as if at the last moment Matthew and Mark realized that was not Jesus(as) and they tried to leave a message that they witnessed somebody other than Jesus(AS) was crucified in his place.

A more accurate translation from Aramaic to English seems most likely to be:

Translation: "O God! O God! Why have you forsaken me?"

Source: http://www.srr.axbridge.org.uk/lemana.html

Which comes across more as an exclamation of anger. sounds more like something a person suddenly realizing he was being crucified in Jesus(as)'s place would say.

 

[snakelegs]

Deep in Jewish blood? I don't understand that one. Please enlighten me. Are you referring to the Catholic Inquisition or the Catholic Crusades or what? Remember, Hitler was NOT part of the Christian church, so what are you talking about?

i was referring to your statement:

Jesus was brought up Jewish and He was sent to the Jews as their Messiah. His first disciples were all Jewish. So how does a follower of the Jew's Messiah end up murdering 6 million Jews? That does not compute.

my point is that in spite of this, the church has a long history of persecution of jews even though they worship a man who was jewish. it doesn't compute but it is history.
as for hitler, he has yet to be excommunicated and there was no conflict between the nazis and the catholic church.
nevertheless, i think hitler was almost as anti-christian as he was anti-jewish, so you'll get no argument from me on this point.

 

[Phil12123]

I read your post.
and you said that the thief did not have any good deeds, but with repentance he went to paradise.
I am also connecting it with:

but, isn't the "blood of Jesus" that paid for your sins? which I think it means that whatever you do, even if you have no good deeds, just beliving in "Jesus's blood" , your sins get washed and you get to heaven. I don't see anything else besides that you can do whatever u want, but having faith in Jesus (his blood) will save u. and there is clear verse in the bible about this.

Which verse? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.

 

[Phil12123]

my point is that in spite of this, the church has a long history of persecution of jews even though they worship a man who was jewish. it doesn't compute but it is history.

I may be ignorant of that "long history of persecution of jews," so can you tell me something about that? Was it the Catholic church that did that? Or who?

as for hitler, he has yet to be excommunicated and there was no conflict between the nazis and the catholic church.
nevertheless, i think hitler was almost as anti-christian as he was anti-jewish, so you'll get no argument from me on this point.

I didn't know he was ever IN the Catholic church, membership-wise. But I did hear or read somewhere that the Pope in office at the time of Hitler sort of looked the other way while he was murdering Jews, refusing to speak out against it or help rescue or give sanctuary to any Jews.

 

[Phil12123]

What are you saying? To be tempted = sin ? No, to yield to temptation = sin.

When you say for someone "He was not attacked", it means that he was in danger to be attacked, but just didn't get attacked.

So when you say Jesus is sinless, you are automatically applying 'sin' term to Jesus.

What? What form of twisted logic are you using? Sinning is sin. Being tempted to sin is NOT sin. Simple enough, isn't it?

The writer of Hebrews says,

Hebrews 4:
12. For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
14. Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
16. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

We never say Allah swt is sinless (astagfirullah), bc that term applies only to us. Allah is High and has power over all things. Nobody can cause damage to HIM

Well, do you ever say, Allah is holy? Yes, according to 59:23 and 62:1. So that is sinless, because is it God Who determines what is sin and what is not. He can't sin because whatever God does is right. That's what makes Him holy. Same with Jesus. He never sinned, but instead, said, "I always do those things that please Him." (John 8:29)

 

[snakelegs]

I may be ignorant of that "long history of persecution of jews," so can you tell me something about that? Was it the Catholic church that did that? Or who?



I didn't know he was ever IN the Catholic church, membership-wise. But I did hear or read somewhere that the Pope in office at the time of Hitler sort of looked the other way while he was murdering Jews, refusing to speak out against it or help rescue or give sanctuary to any Jews.

there is no shortage of material on christian persecution of jews. an excellent book (written by a catholic) is constantine's sword: the church and the jews by james carroll. as for protestants, martin luther's hatred of jews was well known, so it is not just a monopoly of the catholics.
i am not interested in bashing christians here. i only raised this issue because you were implying that since jesus and his followers were jews, it didn't stand to reason that any of his followers would want to kill jews. it may not compute but that is the reality.
as for hitler, as far as i know he was never religious.

 

[MuhammadRizan]

Salam.

salam,

okay i get it know...

But this verse is keep buggin' me..

“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mathew 27:46)

“And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)

why?

 

[Phil12123]

But this verse is keep buggin' me..

“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mathew 27:46)

“And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)

why?

Very good question.

If we remember that Jesus was God in the flesh, "the Word became flesh [that] dwelt among us" (John 1:14), we will not forget the humanity of Jesus. And, of course, that is all Muslims do remember, as they deny His Deity. Personally, I believe the verse quoted is Jesus the Man speaking in relation to His Father and the relationship He had with His Father for all of eternity past until that moment when Jesus was bearing our sins "in His own body upon the tree" (1 Peter 2:24). At that instant, all the world's sins from the first one until the last one ever to be committed on this earth---probably zillions and zillions of sins---were on Him, thereby separating Him for the only time ever from the Father. If we could only conceive of such a burden that He was that moment bearing for all of mankind, we might have some idea of His love for us in being willing to do that. We would also have an idea of how a Holy God, Who cannot look upon sin ("You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness" ---Habakkuk 1:13) can forsake such a sin-bearer. But that is what happened and that is what paid for all those sins, satisfying the demands of a Holy God, as Isaiah had prophesied:

Isaiah 53:
6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not his mouth.
8. He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living(He died); for the transgressions of My people He was stricken (for our sins).
9. And they made His grave with the wicked but with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11. He shall see the travail of His soul, and be satisfied. by His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.
12. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The quote from Jesus on the cross is also something He said in fulfillment of the words uttered by David centuries before:

Psalm 22:1 --- "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me, And from the words of My groaning?"

At that moment, Jesus, with the weight of sin upon Him, must have felt as far from God, His God, His Father, as anyone could ever feel. David himself when he first uttered those words could not have felt as separated from God as Jesus did because of all those sins.

A similar but somewhat different view is expressed by one commentator:

a. My God, My God: In quoting Psalm 22, Jesus declared His fulfillment of that prophecy, in both its agony and it exultation. The Psalm goes on to say, You have answered Me. I will declare Your name to My brethren; in the midst of the congregation I will praise You. (Psalm 22:21b-22)

b. Why have You forsaken Me? Jesus knew great pain and suffering---both physical and emotional---in His life, but had never known separation from His Father; now He does. There was a significant sense in which Jesus rightly felt forsaken by the Father at this moment.

i. How? Because God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:21)

ii. But Jesus not only endured the withdrawal of the Father’s fellowship, but also the actual outpouring of the Father’s wrath upon Him as a substitute for sinful humanity.

iii. Horrible as this was, it fulfilled God’s good and loving plan of redemption. Therefore Isaiah can say Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him. (Isaiah 53:10)

iv. At the same time, we cannot say that the separation between the Father and the Son at the cross was complete. Paul made this clear in 2 Corinthians 5:19: God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself at the cross.

c. The agony of this cry is significant. It rarely grieves man to be separated from God, or to consider that he is a worthy object of God’s wrath. Yet this was the true agony of Jesus on the cross.

http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/4027.htm

 

[MuhammadRizan]

salam.

So this crucifixion actually already Prophesied, that what He meant when He said
to "Fulfill".

And this words are to declare His mission is accomplish, besides at the same times He know for first ever time what it's feel to bear a zillions sin.

am i correct?

 

[MuhammadRizan]

Salam.

1 The LORD hear thee in the day of trouble; the name of the God of Jacob defend thee;
2 Send thee help from the sanctuary, and strengthen thee out of Zion;
3 Remember all thy offerings, and accept thy burnt sacrifice; Selah. 4 Grant thee according to thine own heart, and fulfil all thy counsel.
5 We will rejoice in thy salvation, and in the name of our God we will set up our banners: the LORD fulfil all thy petitions.
6 Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.
7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
8 They are brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright.
9 Save, LORD: let the king hear us when we call.
Psalm 20

coincidently Jesus said,

Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Matthew 26:64)

In Psalm20:6 God promised to protect and save the messiah, Jesus is Christ and Christ means the anointed one or the messiah right?

Jesus also said explicitly 'he will sitting on God saving strenght(right hand)'

why this make the impressions that God will never forsaken His messiah?

this several verse also give the impression that Jesus never come here to die for any reason..

Jesus replied, "Let us go somewhere else—to the nearby villages—so I can preach there also. That is why I have come." (Mark 1:38)

But he said, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent." (Luke 4:43)

For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. (Matthew 18:11, KJV only)

For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. (Luke 19:10)

But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. (Matthew 9:13)

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” (Matthew 5:17-18)

This verse also give the impression that Jesus unwilling to die.

After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him. (John 7:1)

Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (John 8:59)

Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there continued with his disciples. (John 11:54)

And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt].(Matthew 26:39, Luke 22:42)

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; (Hebrews 5:7)

Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. (James 5:16)

If God is all knowing and in His plan He will come to us and wash away our sin,
why did he promise such a guarantee to protect and save the christ (which is Himself)??....and Jesus conformed that!?

If Jesus come here to die here in the first place why did he say and do something that contradict His own initial Mission?like praying to the father to save Him?

Why?

mg:

 

[Phil12123]

So this crucifixion actually already Prophesied, that what He meant when He said to "Fulfill".

And this words are to declare His mission is accomplish, besides at the same times He know for first ever time what it's feel to bear a zillions sin.

am i correct?

Yes, I think so, if I understand you correctly. In addition, here is a link to a site that lists several prophecies in the O.T. that Jesus fulfilled in the N.T.:

http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/messianicprophecies.html