Which Jesus? Muslism Jesus or Christian Jesus?
What Would Jesus (pbuh) Be?
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Which Jesus? Muslism Jesus or Christian Jesus?
aadil77
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Why did god create anything that is harmful and forbidden? drugs, alcohol etc
Mainly because its His will and then because it is a test for mankind
The Gospels show Jesus breaking the laws of the Torah. According to Matthew and Mark, Jesus said that all foods are clean, but the Jewish Law clearly prohibits the consumption of pork!
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. (Matthew 15:11)
"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' (Mark 7:18-20)
Notice how the deceptive editors placed a note (in brackets) claiming that Jesus made all foods clean. This is clearly false, and Jesus never uttered these words. The Gospels were written under the influence of Paul, who rejected the Jewish Law (Hebrews 5:13, Galatians 3:13)
The Gentile writers fabricated these words to make Jesus say that all foods are clean, thus supporting the Pauline doctrine. According to Matthew 5:17-20, 23:23, Jesus came to preach the Jewish Law, and what does the Jewish Law say about eating pork?
And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you.
Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you. (Leviticus 11:7-8)
And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it [is] unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.
These ye shall eat of all that [are] in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat: (Deu 14:8-9)
The Bible prohibits the eating of pork. Jesus never made permissible the consumption of ‘all’ foods, it was a Pauline innovation by the Gospel writers.
The Gnostic leader Marcion (d 140 CE) said that Jewish scribes were corrupting the Gospels by adding Jewish material into them. This proves that the four Gospels were originally composed by Gentile (pagan) writers.
Jesus only ate kosher meat and was forbidden to eat pig’s flesh.
"By what comes out of a man defileth a man ", he means waste products such as excreta as we all know that the Pig eats almost anything, be it human excreta or anything foul and unwholesome. Amongst all animal flesh, pork is the favoured cradle of harmful germs. Pork also serves as a carrier of diseases to mankind. It is for this reason that its flesh is not suitable for consumption and Thus by eating the pork , you're actually consuming those harmful germs some of which could not be killed even by cooking
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Nathaniel
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Was their statement of faith that "there is no God but YHWH and Moses is his messenger"?
Did they perform prayers five times a day?
Did they fast for a month each year?
Did they participate in a pilgrimage to Mecca at least once in their lifetime?
How else do you define a Muslim without the Five Pillars?
Nathaniel
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You realise that there are no brackets in Greek?
How, then, do you interpret Jesus' words that "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'?" It seems to me that you either have to say this is a corrupt verse, or that Jesus really did teach that what you eat doesn't make you unclean (but cleanliness depends on your heart).
aadil77
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There have been muslims since the creation of Adam till now, whether they called themselves jews, christians or whatever, as long as they folloed the true message revealed to them they are muslims.
Remember there were over 40,000 prophets sent to mankind, so there have been believers throughout those periods
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Nathaniel
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So what did Jesus mean when he said that it isn't what goes in your mouth that makes you unclean but what comes out of it? What is your interpretation?
Nathaniel
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So basically you've loosened up the definition of Muslim in order to make Jesus a Muslim. Does that mean I'm allowed to say that Moses was a Christian? Because I can define a Christian as someone who follows the true message of YHWH, and Moses certainly did that!
aadil77
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He certainly did follow the true message of Allah, but your understanding of 'true mesage' is not the same as ours, because if it was - nothing in the Quran and bible would conflict.
And no I haven't 'loosened up the definition of Muslim in order to make Jesus a Muslim' because Allah already states that in our Quran
Uthman
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Bear in mind that the definition of a Muslim in the linguistic sense is a person who submits. In a religious context, it refers to a person who submits themselves to God. Therefore, it is absolutely correct in this sense to say that Jesus and Moses were Muslims.
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"By what comes out of a man defileth a man ", he means waste products such as excreta as we all know that the Pig eats almost anything, be it human excreta or anything foul and unwholesome. Amongst all animal flesh, pork is the favoured cradle of harmful germs. Pork also serves as a carrier of diseases to mankind. It is for this reason that its flesh is not suitable for consumption and Thus by eating the pork , you're actually consuming those harmful germs many of which could not be killed even by cooking
01- CONSUMPTION OF PORK CAUSE SEVERAL DISEASES
The other non-Muslims and atheists (disbelievers of God) will agree only if convinced through reason, logic and science. Eating of pork can cause no less than SEVENTY different types of diseases.
A person can have various helminthes like roundworm, pinworm, hookworm, etc… One of the most dangerous is “Taenia Solium”, which is in lay man’s terminology called tapeworm. It harbors in the intestine and is very long. Its ova i.e. eggs, enter the blood stream and can reach almost all the organs of the body. If it enters the brain it can cause memory loss. If it enters the heart it can cause heart attack, if it enters the eye it can cause blindness, if it enters the liver it can cause liver damage. It can damage almost all the organs of the body.
Another dangerous helminthes is Trichura Tichurasis. A common misconception about pork is that if it is cooked well, these ova die. In a research project undertaken in America, it was found that out of twenty-four people suffering from Trichura Tichurasis, twenty two had cooked the pork very well. This indicates that the ova present in the pork do not die under normal cooking temperature.
02-DISEASES CAUSED BY PORK IN DETAIL
The following lists show germs or parasites that are found in pork and some diseases caused by them. Many of these diseases are contagious while some are proven fatal. This proves that the more science advances the more Islam is shown correct as a religion of God.
PARASITIC (Bloodsucking) DISEASES
a) TRICHINELLA SPIRATIS ( Trichina worms )
It is the most dangerous parasite to man ( Rheumatism and muscular pain). The infected persons shown no symptoms, recover very slowly some die, some reduced to permanent invalids. No one is immune from this disease and there is no cure.
b) TAENIA SOLIUM ( Pork tape worm )
The worm causes malnourishment of the person leading to anemia, diarrhea, extreme depression melancholia and digestive disturbances. Cysticercosis means that larva enter the blood stream then settle down in one or more of the vital organs of the body, for example: brain, liver, lungs or spinal cord. They grow and encapsulate, inducing pressure to thesystem around, resulting in dangerous diseases (diarrhea,digestive disorder, anemia, chronic invalidation).
c) ROUND WORMS
Examples: Ascaris, which may lead to digestive disturbances, appendicitis, obstructive jaundice.
d) HOOK WORMS
Examples:Ancylostomiasis, which may lead to anemia, oedema, heart failure or retarded growth ( mental and physical), tuberculosis,
diarrhea and typhoid.
e) SCHITOSOMA JAPONICUM
Bleeding, anemia and other syndromes. If ova are settled in the brain or spinal cord, paralysis and death may occur.
f) PARAGOMINES WESTERMAINI
Infestation leading to bleeding of the lungs ( endenve haemoptysis )
g) PACIOLEPSIS BUSKI
Digestive disturbances leading to persistent diarrhea; generalized oedema.
h) CLONORCHIS SINENSIS
chlonorchiasis-obstructive jaundice, liver enlargement.
i) METASTRONGYLUS APRI
Causes bronchitis, abscess of the lungs.
j) GIGANTHORINCHUS GIGAS
Cause anemia and digestive disorders.
k) BALATITIDIUM COLI
Causes acute dysentery and general weakness.
BACTERIAL DISEASES
Tuberculosis Fusiformis necrofurus: causing foot-rot which is very difficult to heal.
Salmonella Cholera suis: causing cholera Paratyphoid
Bruceellosis: Acute, sub acute and chronic. It may lead to permanent disabilities.
Swine Erysipelas: causing Erysipelas in man.
VIRAL DISEASES
Small pox: is was a source of infection to man.
Japanese B-encepphalitis: It is the source of infection
Influenza, foot mouth disease, gas tro-enteritis of the new born babies.
PROTOZOAN DISEASES
Toxo plasma goundii- It is a very dangerous diseases. A new born baby of an infected woman may die within few days or weeks after delivery. But if he survives he may develop blindness or deafness.In adult chronic exhaustive fever with enlarged liver and spleen may occur. Pneumonia, or celebro- spinal meninggitis which may lead to death or madness. The patient may become blind and deaf too.
OTHER DISEASES
Flesh of the pork is hard to digest and may lead to chronic digestive disturbances. Pimples, boils, cysts are common in pork eaters. These are some of the parasites and diseases found in pork and/ or the skin of pigs and certainly there are many more. There is still no means of killing these parasites, in the tissues, neither has anyone found a method of expelling them, even produced any specific treatment for the diseases.
03-FATS IN PIGS
Pork contains more fats than other meats. Therefore, people who are loving of pork are more fat than others. Cholesterol is higher in their blood thus making them more flat to asthereosclerosis cardiovascular accidents and sudden death.
04-PIG IS THE MOST SHAMELESS ANIMAL
The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives; i.e. many say “you sleep with my wife and I will sleep with your wife.” If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs. We look upon America to be very advanced and sophisticated. Whatever they do, we follow after a few years. According to an article in Island magazine, this practice of swapping wives has become common practice in South Asia.
05- PIG IS ONE OF THE FILTHIEST ANIMALS ON EARTH
The pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth. It lives and thrives on muck, feces and dirt. It is the best scavenger that I know that God has produced. In the villages they don’t have modern toilets and the villagers defecate in the open air (Body releases) and Very often these releases are cleared by pigs.
Some may argue that in advanced countries like Australia, pigs are bred in very clean and hygienic conditions. Even in these hygienic conditions the pigs are kept together in sties. No matter how hard you try to keep them clean they are filthy by nature. They eat and enjoy their own as well as their neighbor's excreta.
Ramadhan
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Alhamdulillah!
Finally a christian who acknowledges Jesus pbuh was fully man!
I do not claim to be an expert in bible, but to me those verses do not abolish what foods are allowed and what are not allowed. The verses only say that what you eat do not make you unclean/defiled, they do not say that you can eat all food.
So you think Mark 7-22 supercede these following verses:
"And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase." Deuteronomy 14:8
And Jesus (pbuh) came to reinforce verses like Deuteronomy 14:8 quoted above with:
Matthew 5:17 - "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them,
5:18 - because I tell you with certainty that until heaven and earth disappear, not one letter or one stroke of a letter will disappear from the Law until everything has been accomplished.
5:19 - So whoever sets aside one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven
5:20 - because I tell you, unless your righteousness greatly exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven!"
If you really think that Jesus pbuh would be happy with you eating pork, be my guest. I am not the one claims to follow his teaching. I am just pointing out that Jesus pbuh stated otherwise supported by your own scriptures.
By the way, did you know that Mark 7:16 is problematic? Except for KJV, no other bible version list 7:16 in the main text.
That shows you how (un)reliable your own scripture is.
Honestly, do you really think ALL food is clean for you?
Do you really believe Jesus pbuh made all food okay to eat?
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Ramadhan
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Ramadhan
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From http://www.readingislam.com/servlet...sh-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE
In the first place, we need to recognize that, according to the Christian Gospels, there were pigs in Palestine at the time of Jesus (peace be upon him). In one of the Gospel accounts of Jesus healing a young man possessed with devils, Jesus commands the devils to leave the man and to go, instead, into a head of pigs.
In the story, the pigs then rush off a nearby cliff and are killed. In Saint Luke's story of the Prodigal Son, too, Jesus talks about a young man who goes off with his share of the inheritance and wastes it on wine, women and song, until he is so penniless that he has to take a job looking after pigs.
So clearly there were pigs around. What were they doing in Palestine, when Jews do not eat pork? Who were they for? In fact, both the Romans and the Greeks used to eat pork as a delicacy, so we must assume that the pigs were bred either for export or to feed the Romans who were occupying Palestine at the time.
In one of the first books of the Old Testament the Jews are told very clearly which animals they may eat and which animals they may not eat. We read:
"… and the pig, which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud and is therefore unclean for you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their dead bodies you shall not touch; they are unclean for you." (Leviticus 11:7-8)
To this day, Jews do not eat pork.
From what we read in the Gospels, Jesus says nothing at all about eating or not eating pork, so where do his Christian followers get the idea from that it is permissible to eat pork?
As a prophet of Islam, Jesus would not have eaten pork, but it is highly unlikely, according even to the Gospel accounts themselves, that he would have done so as a Jew.
Why the change, then? Why do Christians eat pork, if they believe that their religion grew out of the Jewish one, which forbids it?
Jesus, in fact, is quoted as saying in Saint Matthew's Gospel,
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them."
In such a case, then, we can only presume that he left untouched the instruction about pork.
The answer, in fact, lies not with Jesus, but with the Church which grew up after him and claimed to speak in his name.
After Jesus died, according to a book called Acts of the Apostles written by St Luke, a dispute arose among his followers about those who converted to Christianity. In the earliest days, the followers of Jesus were known as "followers of the Way." They did not consider themselves as anything other than Jews, but they followed the teachings of the Jewish rabbi, Jesus. It was only later in Antioch that they first came to be called "Christians."
Some people said that if someone wanted to be a follower of Jesus, he clearly had to become a Jew first.
"But some from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, 'It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic Law.' The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter." (Acts 15:5)
A meeting was held in Jerusalem to discuss this. It was much more important than a debate about circumcision, since its results would determine the future of those who followed Jesus. There were basically two arguments.
The first was put forward by the Apostle James, heavily influenced by Peter. He upheld the traditional view about circumcision and observation of the Jewish Law. In other words, as Jews the followers of Jesus had to follow the Jewish laws.
Paul of Tarsus, on the other hand, said that there was no longer any need for those new to Christianity to observe the Mosaic Law and become Jews, since Christianity was something different to Judaism.
A compromise was reached. Those who were born as Jews but who had become followers of Jesus would continue to observe the laws of the Jews. Those who were converts did not have to. The prevailing idea was expressed by Peter,
"The truth I have come to realize is that God does not have favorites. Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him." (Acts 10:34).
Laws particular to the Jews would no longer need to apply.
So, you see, it was not Jesus who changed the rule about eating pork. He was quite clear that the Law said you must not do so. As in so many other cases, it was his followers, who became known as the Church, who made this new rule.
If Christians did not have to become Jews, then Christians were no longer bound by the rules of circumcision or of dietary requirements. They could eat as much pork as they wanted.
These leaders would ultimately declare, three hundred years later, that Jesus was God.
In the first place, we need to recognize that, according to the Christian Gospels, there were pigs in Palestine at the time of Jesus (peace be upon him). In one of the Gospel accounts of Jesus healing a young man possessed with devils, Jesus commands the devils to leave the man and to go, instead, into a head of pigs.
In the story, the pigs then rush off a nearby cliff and are killed. In Saint Luke's story of the Prodigal Son, too, Jesus talks about a young man who goes off with his share of the inheritance and wastes it on wine, women and song, until he is so penniless that he has to take a job looking after pigs.
So clearly there were pigs around. What were they doing in Palestine, when Jews do not eat pork? Who were they for? In fact, both the Romans and the Greeks used to eat pork as a delicacy, so we must assume that the pigs were bred either for export or to feed the Romans who were occupying Palestine at the time.
In one of the first books of the Old Testament the Jews are told very clearly which animals they may eat and which animals they may not eat. We read:
"… and the pig, which does indeed have hoofs and is cloven-footed, but does not chew the cud and is therefore unclean for you. Their flesh you shall not eat, and their dead bodies you shall not touch; they are unclean for you." (Leviticus 11:7-8)
To this day, Jews do not eat pork.
From what we read in the Gospels, Jesus says nothing at all about eating or not eating pork, so where do his Christian followers get the idea from that it is permissible to eat pork?
As a prophet of Islam, Jesus would not have eaten pork, but it is highly unlikely, according even to the Gospel accounts themselves, that he would have done so as a Jew.
Why the change, then? Why do Christians eat pork, if they believe that their religion grew out of the Jewish one, which forbids it?
Jesus, in fact, is quoted as saying in Saint Matthew's Gospel,
"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I didn't come to destroy them, but to fulfill them."
In such a case, then, we can only presume that he left untouched the instruction about pork.
The answer, in fact, lies not with Jesus, but with the Church which grew up after him and claimed to speak in his name.
After Jesus died, according to a book called Acts of the Apostles written by St Luke, a dispute arose among his followers about those who converted to Christianity. In the earliest days, the followers of Jesus were known as "followers of the Way." They did not consider themselves as anything other than Jews, but they followed the teachings of the Jewish rabbi, Jesus. It was only later in Antioch that they first came to be called "Christians."
Some people said that if someone wanted to be a follower of Jesus, he clearly had to become a Jew first.
"But some from the party of the Pharisees who had become believers stood up and said, 'It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic Law.' The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter." (Acts 15:5)
A meeting was held in Jerusalem to discuss this. It was much more important than a debate about circumcision, since its results would determine the future of those who followed Jesus. There were basically two arguments.
The first was put forward by the Apostle James, heavily influenced by Peter. He upheld the traditional view about circumcision and observation of the Jewish Law. In other words, as Jews the followers of Jesus had to follow the Jewish laws.
Paul of Tarsus, on the other hand, said that there was no longer any need for those new to Christianity to observe the Mosaic Law and become Jews, since Christianity was something different to Judaism.
A compromise was reached. Those who were born as Jews but who had become followers of Jesus would continue to observe the laws of the Jews. Those who were converts did not have to. The prevailing idea was expressed by Peter,
"The truth I have come to realize is that God does not have favorites. Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him." (Acts 10:34).
Laws particular to the Jews would no longer need to apply.
So, you see, it was not Jesus who changed the rule about eating pork. He was quite clear that the Law said you must not do so. As in so many other cases, it was his followers, who became known as the Church, who made this new rule.
If Christians did not have to become Jews, then Christians were no longer bound by the rules of circumcision or of dietary requirements. They could eat as much pork as they wanted.
These leaders would ultimately declare, three hundred years later, that Jesus was God.
