Who has the right to the land? Israelians or Palestinians?

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Here is the likely original range of Neanderthal. Phew....looks like they may not have a claim on the Holy Land.

neanderthal_map-1.gif


On the other hand, Homo ergaster may have made it to Georgia as much as 1.7 M yr ago. As they likely originated in Africa, it is likely they crossed the Sinai and Palestine/Israel (or whatever it was called then..."uggghmmmugah" perhaps). Let's hope they didn't keep their property deeds or we would have a fight over who is most closely related to H. ergaster.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/745080.stm
 
Basically your admitting Israel is a irresponsible power?:)

Nothing justifies ethnic cleansing and it's various levels of destruction resulting in enormous loss of innocent lives:

Massacre
Genocide
Holocaust

Nothing justifies this method

no matter what!

I am not admitting nor am I attempting to justify anything, I am just stating the obvious. Palestine and Israel are both at fault for acting like 5th century heathens who have nothing better to do than kill each other day in and day out. But the fact of the matter is Israel has a far far superior military, and Palestine is becoming increasingly aggressive towards Israel and Israel just like any other nation will reach a breaking point. It wont be ethnic cleansing, it will just be war with the enemy, and many will die and Israel will no doubt be victorious. The sooner the Palestinians recognize this and realize that peace is the only way the better off they will be.
 
Here is the likely original range of Neanderthal. Phew....looks like they may not have a claim on the Holy Land.

http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Images/neanderthal_map.gif

On the other hand, Homo ergaster may have made it to Georgia as much as 1.7 M yr ago. As they likely originated in Africa, it is likely they crossed the Sinai and Palestine/Israel (or whatever it was called then..."uggghmmmugah" perhaps). Let's hope they didn't keep their property deeds or we would have a fight over who is most closely related to H. ergaster.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/745080.stm

:D According to Antropologists and Geneticists the Neanderthal simply died out:D and the modern groups of people living in those areas they inhabited in Paleolithic times IIRC have no lineages derived from them so i guess that's solved!

I am not admitting nor am I attempting to justify anything, I am just stating the obvious. Palestine and Israel are both at fault for acting like 5th century heathens who have nothing better to do than kill each other day in and day out. But the fact of the matter is Israel has a far far superior military, and Palestine is becoming increasingly aggressive towards Israel and Israel just like any other nation will reach a breaking point. It wont be ethnic cleansing, it will just be war with the enemy, and many will die and Israel will no doubt be victorious. The sooner the Palestinians recognize this and realize that peace is the only way the better off they will be.

The future scenario you painted was quite disturbing IMO, wether Israel reaches a breaking point or not, no nation should be allowed to use conventional weapons in a non-conventional war. Palestine doesn't have a standing army therefore a few skirmishes between Palestinian fighters and the IDF doesn't equal ''your allowed to use F-16's and Merkava's'' to combat them. If Israel does restort to heavy weaponry and decides to use them in a all out war to fight Palestinian fighters and in the process slaughters thousands of innocent civilian lives they should be isolated the way Iran today is being Isolated by the so-called International community and face heavy sanctions and there commanders should be held responsible in The Hague.
 
The future scenario you painted was quite disturbing IMO, wether Israel reaches a breaking point or not, no nation should be allowed to use conventional weapons in a non-conventional war. Palestine doesn't have a standing army therefore a few skirmishes between Palestinian fighters and the IDF doesn't equal ''your allowed to use F-16's and Merkava's'' to combat them. If Israel does restort to heavy weaponry and decides to use them in a all out war to fight Palestinian fighters and in the process slaughters thousands of innocent civilian lives they should be isolated the way Iran today is being Isolated by the so-called International community and face heavy sanctions and there commanders should be held responsible in The Hague.


I agree with you that the scenario is incredibly disturbing, I hope that it never comes to be, however you mention conventional and non-conventional war, this intrigues me. Do you believe that just because a nation is smaller that they can determine the type of war that is fought because they dont have as good of weapons as their enemy? I believe that it is every nations right to protect its citizens, through whatever means necessary. If Israel were to never follow through with the scenario I mentioned, when would the war ever end? Should generation after generation of people have to be at war because of this ridiculous situation?

As I said before the situation with Israel is escalating and there will be a breaking point, if the government of Palestine doesnt take responsibility but doesnt stop it and neither do the people of Palestine then all are equally guilty. Their only real chance is a truce, and I would bet they will never even try for it. If Israel were to end this war through means of heavy force, could you blame them? Daily they say "Stop launching rockets and we will stop bombing and bulldozing" does it ever stop, no so how many options are left on the table? It is very sad and again I will say I hope to God this doesnt happen
 
As I said before the situation with Israel is escalating and there will be a breaking point, if the government of Palestine doesnt take responsibility but doesnt stop it and neither do the people of Palestine then all are equally guilty. Their only real chance is a truce, and I would bet they will never even try for it. If Israel were to end this war through means of heavy force, could you blame them? Daily they say "Stop launching rockets and we will stop bombing and bulldozing" does it ever stop, no so how many options are left on the table? It is very sad and again I will say I hope to God this doesnt happen

The rockets are Retaliation, they are REaction to the israeli Actions. When you oppress people to brink of desperation,do you think they will sit quitely and let you kill them? Even if both people were to live in peace, it won't be possible till Israel at the very least does as i suggested wilherm...


return all the land it occupies beyond the mandated one
,
stop all blockades and checkpoints,
tear down the wall,
go back to the original amount of land given to them,
dismantle all illegal settlements on palestinian lands,
obey the 67+ resultions set forth by UN
,
try to rule only the land mandated to them and leave palestinians alone from their state terrorism.
 
MTAFFI i have to agree with Islamirama's quote

Past non-Palestinian regional powers played with the Palestian child's destiny for their own interests and when that failed they ignored the Palestinian plight. It is in the Israelis best interest if they returned to their pre-war borders and Palestinians not ''regional powers'' were allowed to decide their own destiny and make no mistake ''peace'' is what the ordinary Palestinian child wants as does his Parents but daily Humiliation is not something they will accept quitely
 
MTAFFI i have to agree with Islamirama's quote

Past non-Palestinian regional powers played with the Palestian child's destiny for their own interests and when that failed they ignored the Palestinian plight. It is in the Israelis best interest if they returned to their pre-war borders and Palestinians not ''regional powers'' were allowed to decide their own destiny and make no mistake ''peace'' is what the ordinary Palestinian child wants as does his Parents but daily Humiliation is not something they will accept quitely

I think their borders were lost in a war, were they not? Therefore their borders are what they wish. The attacks from the palestinians out number the Israeli response everyday, without fail. If they would stop with the rockets, Israel would have to stop with the bombs and demolishion
 
I think their borders were lost in a war, were they not? Therefore their borders are what they wish.

So the borders of the United States today extend beyond Canada's(Alaska incl.) side and the Mexican side?(Bases excl.)

If let's say in the future Israel's military establisment completely disintergrated and Palestine managed to get the upperhand i doubt the UN,US etc etc would allow the Palestinians to re-draw the borders as they see fit imo

The attacks from the palestinians out number the Israeli response everyday, without fail. If they would stop with the rockets, Israel would have to stop with the bombs and demolishion

If they returned to their pre-war borders, then we would see a shift towards peace most definitely!
 
If they returned to their pre-war borders, then we would see a shift towards peace most definitely!
The objective of all the Palestinian Militants is the discruction of Israel.
As long as that is there objective, peace will not occure.
Moving the borders will just bring the Militants closer to those they want to kill. :raging:
 
The objective of all the Palestinian Militants is the discruction of Israel.
As long as that is there objective, peace will not occure.
Moving the borders will just bring the Militants closer to those they want to kill. :raging:

look at the statistics again and then tell me who is being killed more :raging:


you want peace, then give others a reason to even think about peace, grabbing them by the throat with a gun to their head wont' convince them!
 
I've seen a few people say that Israel should return to it's borders according to the original partition, which would bring peace. History says that that won't work. Israel used to occupy the Sinai and Lebanon, peace didn't come. They've even begun to dismantle some settlements, "land for peace." No peace yet. The millitants won't stop until Israel is destroyed. Whether or not Israel should have been placed where it is is debatable, however the current Isralies were mostly not born when Israel was founded, they are defending the only home they know.
 
look at the statistics again and then tell me who is being killed more :raging:


you want peace, then give others a reason to even think about peace, grabbing them by the throat with a gun to their head wont' convince them!
You can't get anything right, can you? Who said anything about who has done more killing? You just want to throw off the facts. Another "your momma is uglier than my momma" stunts you like to pull. :?

The fact remains, Hamas and many others have a stated objective of destroying Israel. :raging:

You can sugar coat it any way you want. You can use any logic you want to justify it. :skeleton:

Peace is not there objective!
 
Who has the right to the land? Israelians or Palestinians?

They should share it.

Only viable solution at the moment IMHO: segregate, build big walls between the communities, deescalate and hope that in a few decades some of the hate on either side will have diminished. Bah, I've become a cynic :(.
 
The objective of all the Palestinian Militants is the discruction of Israel.
As long as that is there objective, peace will not occure.
Moving the borders will just bring the Militants closer to those they want to kill. :raging:

this is exactly what I believe would happen
 
You can't get anything right, can you? Who said anything about who has done more killing? You just want to throw off the facts. Another "your momma is uglier than my momma" stunts you like to pull. :?

The fact remains, Hamas and many others have a stated objective of destroying Israel. :raging:

You can sugar coat it any way you want. You can use any logic you want to justify it. :skeleton:

Peace is not there objective!

It is you who can't get it thru your head. Look at facts not what someone "wants" to do. The facts stand for themselves. Palestinians have surffered and zionists have oppressed for the last 50+years.

The fact remains hamas will continue for the freedom of Palestinians and is a legtimate resistance group despite how many terrorists countries of the west call it otherwise.

The fact remains that zionists have not obeyed to one UN resolutions and continues to oppress people more and more without anyone speaking up against it.

The fact remains zionists on PM sharon massacred 2 refuge camps and was called a hero of the zionists people.

The fact remains zionists invite any jew from anywhere in the world and gives them citizenship and if a native palestinian leaves his land (for education or whatever) and does not return within given time (very short window) then he looses his citizenship.

The fact remains that zionists have over 10,000 palestinians in jails, mostly women and children, and over million refuges kicked to the borders of egypt and jorden.

The fact remains that zionists have built over 200 illegal jews only settlements on stolen palestinian land.

The fact remains that zionists are trying to kill or kick out all palestinians so palestine becomes jews only state.

It is they who don't want peace and it is they who have blocked every resolution and peace plans set forth by the gov'ts and rejected every peace plan that doesn't fit their agenda.

it is you who is trying to sugar coat the facts. so i suggest you go live in palestine one week and see how well you gentile are treated by the zionist terrorists.
 
Shalom [Peace],

It is definitely reasonable for the world to expect Israel to comply with UN resolutions; however, it must be done in unison with the Palestinians. If only one side complies with the resolutions, then not only is it unfair, but it will bring about catastrophe for the side that does comply, since the other did not.

Pro-Arab sources often claim that UNSCR 242 requires Israel to withdraw from the West Bank, Gaza, and other areas. This is not true. In summary, here is what UNSCR 242 actually means:

1. UNSCR 242 calls on all parties to the conflict to negotiate a solution

2. It anticipates that Israel will withdraw to secure borders (not specified in the resolution) in exchange for peace guarantees from the Arab parties​

The Resolution was carefully worded to require that Israel withdraw from "territories" rather than "the territories." This construction, leaving out "the," was intentional, because it was not envisioned that Israel would withdraw from all the territories, thereby returning to the vulnerable pre-war borders. And any withdrawal would be such as to create "secure and recognized boundaries."

How do we know this is what was intended by the resolution? There is a long record of public statements about how the resolution was negotiated and what was intended for it to accomplish.

In an article, referenced among the Sources at the bottom of the page, by Eugene V. Rostow (Distinguished Fellow at the United States Institute of Peace, and former US Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs), the intent is explained in considerable detail. Rostow was one of the US officials involved in drafting 242 so he knows first hand what was and was not intended. He states:

Resolution 242, which as undersecretary of state for political affairs between 1966 and 1969 I helped produce, calls on the parties to make peace and allows Israel to administer the territories it occupied in 1967 until "a just and lasting peace in the Middle East" is achieved.

It was widely recognized that the balancing of the ideas of a territorial return with "secure and recognized boundaries" for Israel would mean that Israel would not be forced to withdraw from 100% of the land captured in the June 1967 war. There is a dispute between the British-American understanding of the wording of the resolution and the French understanding of the wording, but in the United Nations the binding version of any resolution is the version that is submitted to the voting body. In this case, the English version takes precedence over the French version.

In addition the Arab world seems to contradict itself when they react to the “occupation” of the west bank. A perfect example:

In April 1950, Jordan annexed eastern Jerusalem (dividing the city for the first time in its history) and the "West Bank" areas in historical Judea and Samaria that Trans-Jordan had occupied by military force in 1948 (Jordan changed its name to Trans-Jordan in April 1949). On April 24, 1950, the Jordan House of Deputies and House of Notables, in a joint session, adopted a Resolution making the West Bank and Jerusalem part of Jordan. This act had no basis in international law; it was only the de facto act of Trans-Jordan as a conquerer. The other Arab countries denied formal recognition of the Jordanian move and only two governments - Great Britain and Pakistan - formally recognized the Jordanian takeover. The rest of the world, including the United States, never did.

After the 1948 War for Independence and the Jordanian takeover, the Palestinian Arabs never attempted to establish an independent state in the territory alloted to them by the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan. They cooperated with its unilateral annexation by Jordan, becoming part of Jordan's political system. Across the barbed wire that marked the dividing line, Jordanian East Jerusalem was not made the capital, even for its Palestinian residents, in 19 years of Jordanian rule. The capital remained in Amman. There was no outcry of claims of "Palestinian" identity being submerged by Jordan.

The reason there was no Arab outrage over the annexation was because Jordan is a state whose ethnic majority is Palestinian Arabs. On the other hand, the Palestinians of Jordan are disenfranchised by the ruling Hashemite minority. Despite this fact, in the years following the annexation the Palestinians displayed no interest in achieving "self-determination" in Hashemite Jordan. It is only the presence of Jews, apparently, that incites this claim.

The Jordanian "occupation" of the West Bank was very abusive of the rights of Jews and Christians, or any resident of Israel. During the 1948-1967 period of its occupation, Jordan permitted terrorists to launch raids into Israel. Jewish and muslim residents of Israel were not permitted to visit their Holy Places in East Jerusalem. Christians, too, were discriminated against. In 1958, Jordanian legislation required all members of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre to adopt Jordanian citizenship. In 1965, Christian institutions were forbidden to acquire any land or rights in or near Jerusalem. In 1966, Christian schools were compelled to close on Fridays instead of Sundays, customs privileges of Christian religious institutions were abolished. Jerusalem was bisected by barbed wire, concrete barriers and walls. On a number of occasions Jordanian soldiers opened fire on Jewish Jerusalem. In May 1967, the Temple Mount became a military base for the Jordanian National Guard.​

Therefore both sides of UN resolutions must be followed by both sides. A perfect example of where the Arab side failed to do such was when the Palestinians signed the Oslo II agreement, they promised to "ensure free access to, respect the ways of worship in, and not make any changes to, the Jewish holy sites" on land given up by Israel. [They made the same promise in the Gaza-Jericho accord in 1994 and the Hebron accord in 1997.] Among the listed sites: the venerable "Peace Upon Israel" (shalom al yisrael) synagogue in Jericho and the yeshiva at Joseph's Tomb in Nablus. Today, neither exists. In October, Palestinians burned down the synagogue. They smashed Joseph's Tomb to rubble and trampled its holy books, and announced that a mosque would be built on the site.

Peace.
 
It is you who can't get it thru your head. Look at facts not what someone "wants" to do. The facts stand for themselves. Palestinians have surffered and zionists have oppressed for the last 50+years.

The fact remains hamas will continue for the freedom of Palestinians and is a legtimate resistance group despite how many terrorists countries of the west call it otherwise.

The fact remains that zionists have not obeyed to one UN resolutions and continues to oppress people more and more without anyone speaking up against it.

The fact remains zionists on PM sharon massacred 2 refuge camps and was called a hero of the zionists people.

The fact remains zionists invite any jew from anywhere in the world and gives them citizenship and if a native palestinian leaves his land (for education or whatever) and does not return within given time (very short window) then he looses his citizenship.

The fact remains that zionists have over 10,000 palestinians in jails, mostly women and children, and over million refuges kicked to the borders of egypt and jorden.

The fact remains that zionists have built over 200 illegal jews only settlements on stolen palestinian land.

The fact remains that zionists are trying to kill or kick out all palestinians so palestine becomes jews only state.

It is they who don't want peace and it is they who have blocked every resolution and peace plans set forth by the gov'ts and rejected every peace plan that doesn't fit their agenda.

it is you who is trying to sugar coat the facts. so i suggest you go live in palestine one week and see how well you gentile are treated by the zionist terrorists.

The fact remains, Hamas has no interest in peace. As long as there is Hamas and the like, there will not be peace.
But then Israel isn't interested in peace either.
 
I would say Israel has the right to all of that land really, the land was conquered just as the people living in the land was conquered. Then Israel fought its own war with the surrounding nations and won again, they obviously have all rights to the land, after all, the land doesnt really belong to either of these groups "originally"... who really knows for a fact who was there originally anyways? Not only that but who cares?! Nearly every piece of land in the world has been conquered or has conquered others to establish its boundaries. The problem in Palestine is the "militant islam" mind set, there is no government really so the people that fight Israel, fight like cowards and hide amongst "civilians" (if there is such a thing in palestine) and launch rockets at random targets. Basically these people need to recognize defeat, if this was an all out war (which it already was) these people would lose (as they already did once) so now since they cant win in war and have been conquered they choose to terrorize the winners until they give up the land (which they never will). Basically there will come a day when Israel will draw a line and declare a war against Palestine, and I am not talking about the fighters in Palestine, I am talking about every living person. Sadly I think that day is approaching (maybe within 5 years) and then the problem will be solved. It is Israels land and unless the Palestinians quit launching rockets, it will eventually all be Israels land.

since no one knows who was there originally, then why do the Jews have the right to come back?:D
 
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