Who is the founder of Christianity?

[Zafran]

(For Zafran, who seemed to not know this in another thread, it is the first four books -- Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John -- which are termed Gospels by Christians. None of the books on this list are accepted by Jews; they do not recognize a New Testament and an Old Testament, but only consider what Christians call the Old Testament to be scripture.)

I know that - what thread? what did I say???

 

[Grace Seeker]

I know that - what thread? what did I say???

post #127 in this thread

Is that [the Gospel] the book the Jews and the christains have in common???? there is a book that both Jews and christains claim to posses yet see it in radically different ways. Historically the christains and the jews didnt see eye to eye - thats well known and heavily documented.

 

[Zafran]

Is that [the Gospel] the book the Jews and the christains have in common???? there is a book that both Jews and christains claim to posses yet see it in radically different ways. Historically the christains and the jews didnt see eye to eye - thats well known and heavily documented.

Yes I was talking about the OT/ Torah - Both see it radically differently. Nothing to do with the NT.

 

[suffiyan007]

Yes I was talking about the OT/ Torah - Both see it radically differently. Nothing to do with the NT.

Hello, Bro..i would to know if u willing to tell me....! i would like to understand a bit bout the Torah...i understand the NT only.tQ....

i had read a book of JuDas iscariot....juSt a sinopsis and summary of the book quite interesting....i dont know whether right or not....i heard that Judas iscariot is liking Jesus A.S and then he become betrayed jesus cause jesus doesn't like him and etc...i know why the narrator of the book written like this...if anyone read the book do tell me ok.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Yes I was talking about the OT/ Torah - Both see it radically differently. Nothing to do with the NT.

So, if you were intending to ask about the OT/Torah, can you see how asking a question, as you did, about the Gospel being a book that Jews and Christians have in common would seem rather confusing?

Anyway, hopefully that is all cleared up now.

As to the difference in views regarding the OT/Torah -- it isn't the whole of the Tanakah that we see so differently, but more in selected passages and the way those passages are understood to do or do not refer to the Messiah. Then the Christian acceptance of Jesus as the foretold Messiah leads us to look back on the Tanakah and see it in a different light than do Jews.

 

[Zafran]

So, if you were intending to ask about the OT/Torah, can you see how asking a question, as you did, about the Gospel being a book that Jews and Christians have in common would seem rather confusing?

Anyway, hopefully that is all cleared up now.

As to the difference in views regarding the OT/Torah -- it isn't the whole of the Tanakah that we see so differently, but more in selected passages and the way those passages are understood to do or do not refer to the Messiah. Then the Christian acceptance of Jesus as the foretold Messiah leads us to look back on the Tanakah and see it in a different light than do Jews.

I've also heard the trinity in Genesis. I can remember then and then we have Abhrham pbuh and sacrifce and what it represents and if Jesus pbuh was always around in the Torah.

In the Post in the other thread i was replying Follower who was mixing up the Quranic verse as usual.

 

[Zafran]

Hello, Bro..i would to know if u willing to tell me....! i would like to understand a bit bout the Torah...i understand the NT only.tQ....

The Torah is the first 5 books of the OT according to Jews and christains - Ofcourse Muslims belive in the Torah was given to Moses (as) but we question the so called Torah of today.

 

[Ben]

I’m not trying to run a sword into this thread, but I think it’s important to ask the following question: WHY are we trying to define the founder(s) of Christianity? A plurality of the votes (45% when I checked) is for Paul. But why does it matter? Even if 100% of the votes were for Paul, all we’ve done is established the origin of Christianity, but we have done nothing to show that Christianity is true or false. To attempt to invalidate a view by showing how that view came to be is to commit the genetic fallacy. Therefore I don’t see a purpose in debating the origin.

Just sayin’…feel free to carry on

 

[YusufNoor]

Yusuf, you assume too much.

speaking of assuming too much:

I'm not avoiding any questions because of fear that I can't talk about them. But I do discriminate in my use of time. When you ask questions that I am well aware that you know the answer to, I don't take your questions seriously. When I have limited time to respond, questions that I don't think are serious questions go to the bottom of the priority list. This is not to say that you don't have reasons for your questions, perhaps to draw something out or make a point in a particular way, but I have to make decisions as to what to take time on or not take time on independent of your agenda.

I too am well aware of the process by which the Bible that is in use today evolved over time.

actually, i believe that this is the first time that you have said as much

I don't have all of the answers to when this or that book was accepted or rejected memorized and don't always have the time to research answers to questions that I don't see as relevant to what I was asking, especially when they are as easily known to you as they are to me.

you write as is you have a better understanding of the authenticity of Christians texts than the scholars, therefore you should be able to back up what you say. and of course you wouldn't see the relevancy to any of this [in ANY thread] i presume.

Normally, I would be glad to join in your games, but this summer, at this particular point of time in my life I just don't have time.

no one is asking you to stick around here, but if you are going to make posts and start threads, then you should answer the questions and reply to the comments in them [instead of picking and choosing which pre-teen or teenager that you will responsd to.]

So, without dates I've already stipulated that the NT was complied over time with varying books seen as being canonical at one point in history. That list would change over history till it was eventually settled on by general consensus, a consensus that was latter conferred as established by the church at a church council.

But for precises books and dates you can look them up as well and quickly as I. I have no idea how this relates to determining who is the founder of Christianity.

you wrote:

Thank-you for an a-ha moment.

If I understand you correctly, since the Qur'an reports that the disciples asked to be registered among the witness for the events as the Qur'an presents them, then if any other source of writing suggests that the disciples were doing something different that what the Qur'an says, those other sources (be they the Bible, contemporary historians, or writings of the disciples themselves) must by definition be wrong as a result of some type of corruption: the altering of manuscripts, the works being forgeries, using/creating fictious historical accounts or some other way in which error is introduced to them.

Do I understand the essence of what you are saying?


And if the disciples were true followers of Jesus and the NT record substantially disputes what is in the Qur'an, then since the disciples didn't fall away from sharing the message that the Qur'an presents Jesus as bringing, the next most logical person to have been able to make such a significant change in Jesus' teaching becomes Paul -- especially since about half of the NT is purported to have been written by him.

when asked, what half? you replied:

Not according to most of those "scholars" you like to quote from. They would probably tell you that the majority of letters attributed to Paul were supposedly written by someone else.

rather than answer the question, which i guess we'll just have to wonder about your motives for that, you IMPLY that there is something wrong with THOSE QUOTE "scholars" UNQUOTE, as if to marginalize them, perhaps because they don't conform to your views and Allahu Alum.

so it seems that YOU have the time to play games, when you prefer not to answer a question or series of questions, now claiming ignorance or lack of knowledge.

WHY don't you just claim this lack of knowledge instead or posting your usual propaganda? you could save a whole lot of your time then!

if you don't have time to respond, then post less. i've tried it, it works!

but as you your final question:

But for precises books and dates you can look them up as well and quickly as I. I have no idea how this relates to determining who is the founder of Christianity

you claimed that Paul wrote HALF of the Bible! as that is NOT true, i was simply trying to determine the basis for that comment.

are you sure Paul didn't write Hebrews? if not who did?

 

[glo]

I’m not trying to run a sword into this thread, but I think it’s important to ask the following question: WHY are we trying to define the founder(s) of Christianity? A plurality of the votes (45% when I checked) is for Paul. But why does it matter? Even if 100% of the votes were for Paul, all we’ve done is established the origin of Christianity, but we have done nothing to show that Christianity is true or false. To attempt to invalidate a view by showing how that view came to be is to commit the genetic fallacy. Therefore I don’t see a purpose in debating the origin.

Just sayin’…feel free to carry on

Hi Ben

I think the reason for asking the question is that in discussions with Muslims the argument often crops up that Jesus never claimed the things Christian doctrine teaches, and that his true teachings were distorted by his followers - Paul being the first and most obvious culprit.

In the light of those discussions the poll was started.

I agree with you that it does not prove or disprove Christianity in any way - but I don't think that is the purpose of the thread.
From a Christian perspective, I have found the question quite interesting.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Yusuf, you can accept the answers I've given or not. I don't much really care. I once asked you about a post you chose to respond to nearly a year later, and your answer to me was that you would post when you chose to post and that your method of posting wasn't going to be determined by someone else.

Sounded like a good answer then, and it still does now.

I've responded to everything you've asked, here, in other threads dealing with parallel questions or in the past. I'm not at this point in my life going to waste time continuing to rehash stuff with you over and over again. Yep, there are some posts by others I will respond to over yours. Deal with it. But you assume way too much with your interpretations as too why. That's just information -- absorb it, believe it, ignore it, disbelieve it, I don't much really care.

I've got plenty going on in my life right now, so that this forum isn't even on the list of priorities, let alone your posts in particular when I am on LI. Some friends who know some about what I am dealing with -- my 83 year old father collapsed in his driveway the middle of last month from congestive heart failure complicated by inoperable aortic stenosis and cardiac arythmias, spent a week in ICU, another week in the hospital and now is adjusting to involuntary life rehabbing in a nursing home 3 hours away from where I live -- recently asked about how things were going and this was my response:[quote author=Grace Seeker link=topic=16722.msg341220#msg341220 date=1247603793]

Dad is holding his own. Shows some improvement with regaining strength and mobility. Got a good attitude and works hard at his physical therapy. But the larger issues are unresolved and short of either life-threatening surgery or a miracle won't be.

My daughter visited with her kids last week and that made his day. I'm finding that he's got an incredible number of friends scattered throughout the community. I'm there at least 2 days a week (the church gave me an extra day off so that I could be there that much) to help with his personal affairs and begin to work on the house. As of yet I haven't had any time to work on the house, but am meeting a lot of people as I go from business to business that are genuinely interested in how he is doing. I mean like I dropped his car off at the auto dealer to get a part replaced that he had previously ordered, and the shop foreman started asking about him. Same with the secretary at the car insurance and managers of two banks. It seems everywhere I go my Dad has people who have a story to tell me about him. I had no idea. The neighbors have gone out of there way not just for him, but for us as well. And he seems to have company from the church or neighborhood almost everyday. He's 83 and in a nursing home and there are 11 year old kids coming to visit him. I can see why he didn't want to be placed in a nursing home near me.

As for me, I'm tired. I've had more meals out than at home these last couple of weeks, and driven more miles than I did when I made my living as a truck driver.
[/quote]

And right now I'm off to a committee I continue to chair helping about 100 people who lost homes in our areas from record flooding last year in their continuing process of recovery. Given all of this, Yusuf, your concerns don't even register a blip on my radar.

 

[glo]

I'm praying for you and your family, Grace Seeker, especially your dad.
Take care of yourself too, that's important!

And yes, cyber places like this pale into insignificance at times like this.

I am sure I speak for everyone here when I say that we understand the pressures you are under, and that we do not wish to add to those pressures.

God bless you and keep you.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I'm praying for you and your family, Grace Seeker, especially your dad.
Take care of yourself too, that's important!

And yes, cyber places like this pale into insignificance at times like this.

I am sure I speak for everyone here when I say that we understand the pressures you are under, and that we do not wish to add to those pressures.

God bless you and keep you.

Thank-you, Glo. This is a long-term issue with times that require a great deal of attention and times that I simply have to trust my father into other people's hands. There are days when I am completely exhausted, and days when I can recover and have renewed energy. Strangely it is sometimes on those exhausting days that I intentionally come here and to other forums as sort of a catharitic experience, giving me something else to think about for a time. But I'm surely going to frustrate people who are used to engaging me as I've been willing to in the past. I realize that when I am tired I am not always as clear thinking as I would like to be. So, I have to pick and choose where I spend my time and what I invest my energies in. I will be here some, and then gone, only to come back again perhaps days later, and when I return who knows exactly what I will be able to pick up agains and what I will have to let go. We shall see.

But again, thanks to you and to all who sent me private notes, that you are praying for my dad. I admit it is tough having just lost my mother January 1, and I don't want to lose them both in one year.

 

[Danah]

Hi all,

I read this verse yesterday

“According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the FOUNDATION, and another builds on it"

1 Corinthians 3:10

who was meant in this verse? wasn't Paul who wrote this?

 

[Grace Seeker]

To answer the second part of your question: Yes, Paul wrote the above. He also wrote the verse which follows the one you quoted:

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 3:11)
Hopefully that answers the first part of your question as to the nature of the foundation Paul is referencing in verse 10.

 

[جوري]

^^ does that statement sugar coat the one that preceded it? If no church needed to be re- laid after Jesus then why all the additives and preservatives? shouldn't what Jesus laid stand unadulterated?

 

[Grace Seeker]

I think the whole passage is a metaphor. Paul is using a building analogy to talk about his understanding of what the church is.

In asking the original question at the beginning of this thread I wasn't thinking of this verse at all, but more in terms of the way that people speak of George Washington as the "father of our country" in the USA. So, I was curious as to who people would identify as the "founding father(s)" of Christianity. I knew there would be a lot of different answers -- I tried to name a few of the probably answers in the poll. Not surprisingly some didn't like my suggestions and wanted to give a different answer I hadn't considered. As the thread developed, I sometimes found the reasons given for the various answers even more intriguing than the answer itself.

I've been surprised that Peter and the other disciples didn't elicit more support. After all the movement was under their leadership long before Paul arrived on the scene. It seems Paul's eventually rise to a place of dominant influence, at least if based on the amount of his writings that are preserved within the canon of the New Testament and the degree to which they influenced the development of the dogmas of later generations tend to make him a more pivotal figure in many people's eyes in producing the ultimate form which Christianity would take on for succeeding generations than even Jesus himself. I'm not agreement with that argument, for I think that makes Paul more the shaper of Christianity than it's founder, but perhaps that is a distinction that I draw to finely to be well received in a forum like this?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

....it is tough having just lost my mother January 1, and I don't want to lose them both in one year.

My God ; it's such a tough situation ..really. I lost my dad last year and can't think of even illness of mom . May God help all your family members and you to take care of your dad . May God grant what is good for him .

 

[Rabi Mansur]

I voted Paul. I always thought that he had the greatest impact on the early Christian church and his writings informed the beliefs of those who came later. He also had a profound influence on Martin Luther. Without Paul the church would look a lot different. Where would the teachings on being saved by grace be today without Paul? Without his missionary zeal throughout the ancient world I don't think Christianity would have spread.

Peace. eace:

 

[Ramadhan]

I don't know much about christianity history.
so is paul considered a prophet by christians?
he never met 'Eesa (peace be upon him) did he?