Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

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nah c'mon guys, i've had discussions with evangel in the past and we never argued or anything like that. :) So let's do it without no 'fighting' etc.


Thanks.
 
Where did I write, "now we are having 2 Gods."
you didn't explicitely say it, but you said it through the meaning of your words. check up the posts again
 
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evangel, you know there's no place in the bible where Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) tells people to worship him right? Rather he calls to the worship of the One above the heavens, true? :)

If you agree with that, and you know that Jesus son of Mary, conveyed the message. Then you should also realise that we should worship our Creator and Sustainer alone (whether it's prayer, any form of intercession etc.) - it should be focused to God Alone, since it's Him who Jesus called to, and without a doubt those who love Jesus follow his true teachings instead of doubt, and conjecture.



We love Jesus, the Messiah also. And we believe he will return near the final hour to fight the anti-christ, God/Allaah has given him honor in this world and the one to come. And without a doubt, those who are closest to Jesus are those who follow him with truth and sincerety. :)




Peace.
 
nah c'mon guys, i've had discussions with evangel in the past and we never argued or anything like that.
So let's do it without no 'fighting' etc.


Thanks.

u picky ;D;D :p
 
:salamext:


lolll shh bro.. don't mess about on the forums insha Allaah :)
 
Simply put, the Trinity is the three ways that the one true God manifests Himself.

Simply put, and simple for this non-Christian at least to understand. You are however, as you have probably gathered, totally wasting your time. Some posters profess to not understanding that idea simply because, I think, as they do not accept it as true they are unwilling to make the slightest effort to try. Hence the simplistic '1+1+1=3, QED' 'argument', which I find hugely ironic as that makes far more anthropomorphic assumptions about the nature of God than anything else that has been discussed here.

There is a huge difference between understanding an idea and accepting it as true. One does not necessarily involve the other.
 
lolll shh bro.. don't mess about on the forums insha Allaah

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Simply put, and simple for this non-Christian at least to understand. You are however, as you have probably gathered, totally wasting your time. Some posters profess to not understanding that idea simply because, I think, as they do not accept it as true they are unwilling to make the slightest effort to try. Hence the simplistic '1+1+1=3, QED' 'argument', which I find hugely ironic as that makes far more anthropomorphic assumptions about the nature of God than anything else that has been discussed here.

There is a huge difference between understanding an idea and accepting it as true. One does not necessarily involve the other.

it's not that we don't want to understand, but this concept of Trinity is unexplainable, even Christians don't understand it, but they pretend to understand it. Nobody till now has been able to come up and clearly explain this concept. but anywasy we are not going again into this, cuz we have already discussed it.
 
you didn't explicitely say it, but you said it through the meaning of your words. check up the posts again

The term I used was manifests. How many ways do you manifest yourself during the average day? Maybe all or a few of these, husband, brother, father, employee, employer, citizen, etc... These manifestations of the different characteristics of who you are doesn't mean there are multiple vpb's.
 
what happened?, Fi, could you delete the extra copies of the post.
 
The term I used was manifests. How many ways do you manifest yourself during the average day? Maybe all or a few of these, husband, brother, father, employee, employer, citizen, etc... These manifestations of the different characteristics of who you are doesn't mean there are multiple vpb's.

we have already spent hundreds of MB of bandwith on discussing such thing, so we might want to stop here, or else we can discuss something else :)
 
The term I used was manifests. How many ways do you manifest yourself during the average day? Maybe all or a few of these, husband, brother, father, employee, employer, citizen, etc... These manifestations of the different characteristics of who you are doesn't mean there are multiple vpb's.


The fault in that argument is that these three manifestations are within the same person no matter where he goes, however - the issue of 'god' being in three parts would mean that Jesus couldn't be on the earth while he is calling to the worship of the One above the heavens.

I.e. the claim of some christians who say that Jesus said; "why has thou forsaken me", why would he be saying that if he's talking to himself? If he's talking to God in that scenario, then that means that God is somewhere else, which means that they are two gods in different places? I.e. one being 'killed', while another is patient with this torture that the other is recieving?


Again, the idea of Jesus son of Mary being a prophet in that scenario would make much more sense. However, we know that Jesus son of Mary is so honorable in the sight of God that he wasn't even killed, rather he was raised upto God without being killed, and he will return once again near the final hour. That shows much more honor and love of God/Allaah for Jesus son of Mary, the honorable Messiah (peace be upon him.)
 
The fault in that argument is that these three manifestations are within the same person no matter where he goes, however - the issue of 'god' being in three parts would mean that Jesus couldn't be on the earth while he is calling to the worship of the One above the heavens.

I.e. the claim of some christians who say that Jesus said; "why has thou forsaken me", why would he be saying that if he's talking to himself? If he's talking to God in that scenario, then that means that God is somewhere else, which means that they are two gods in different places? I.e. one being 'killed', while another is patient with this torture that the other is recieving?


Again, the idea of Jesus son of Mary being a prophet in that scenario would make much more sense. However, we know that Jesus son of Mary is so honorable in the sight of God that he wasn't even killed, rather he was raised upto God without being killed, and he will return once again near the final hour. That shows much more honor and love of God/Allaah for Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him.)
you just spent 24234234 words, :p trying to explain, but we have talked about this before, and they will not get it unless want to,

2:171
And the parable of those who disbelieve is as the parable of one who calls out to that which hears no more than a call and a cry; deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they do not understand.
 
Only Allaah knows, :)




Allaah says:

“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”

Narrated by Muslim (2577).
 
I actually have no difficulty in the concept that Allah(swt) could manifest Himself as 3 separate identities if He chose to do so. The question is not if He can do it the Question is "Did He do it?"

I can find no indication that he did so. In fact even Christians have written their own documentation that they do not consider the 3 to be the same person.

We have Jesus(as) speaking to God(swt) and even asking God(swt) for favors.

Luke 6:12 One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.

Luke 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
Interesting side note here::[a] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.Footnotes: 1. Luke 23:34 Some early manuscripts do not have this sentence. Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lk%2023:34;&version=31;

This one varies according to which Bible you use:

Luke 23:46 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

46Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.


Luke 23:46 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

46And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Luke 23:46 (Young's Literal Translation)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible]

46and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, `Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit.

Then We have Jesus(as) being blessed by The Holy Spirit.

Luke 3:22 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

Luke 3:22 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

To me that all reads like the Trinity is three separate Unequal beings and that Jesus(as) is the least powerful of them as he Needs to ask God(as) for favors and He prays to God in worship. He also received a Blessing from the Holy Spirit.

Now if that sounds like a description of 3 separate entities being one person. I am hopelessly confused.
 
Wodroow, it doesn't seem to me these verses to refer to One God , or do they?
 
...even Christians have written their own documentation that they do not consider the 3 to be the same person.

We have Jesus(as) speaking to God(swt) and even asking God(swt) for favors.

To me that all reads like the Trinity is three separate Unequal beings and that Jesus(as) is the least powerful of them as he Needs to ask God(as) for favors and He prays to God in worship. He also received a Blessing from the Holy Spirit.

Now if that sounds like a description of 3 separate entities being one person. I am hopelessly confused.

I would agree that the 3 separate entities, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are 3 separate personages Who together are the ONE GOD. The problem we humans have is perhaps semantics---the words we use to describe GOD. For Christians, the term and teaching of "Trinity" and 3 "Persons" or "Personages" is merely an attempt to verbalize and summarize what God Himself has said about Himself in His Word, both Old and New testaments. "Let US make man in OUR image..." There are many places in the Old Testament indicating GOD is more than an absolute ONE, but rather a composite ONE. So when Jesus said, "My Father and I are ONE," it should come as no shock to someone who has read all of the O.T. and much of the N.T., with the concept becoming more clear and pronounced in the N.T.

The Three are co-equal in all their essence, substance, and nature. Those 3 words simply describe what something consists of. God consists of DEITY. Man consists of humanity. Animals consist of animal matter/life. Plants consist of plant matter/life. Rocks consist of inanimate minerals or whatever. Regarding GOD and Jesus and their relationship, we must consider this passage:

Philippians 2:
3. Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
4. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
5. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7. but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Now, the context of the passage has to do with pride vs. humility. Paul writes to the Philippians and urges them to do nothing out of conceit but have lowliness of mind (humility), esteeming others better than yourself. He then uses Jesus Christ as the ultimate example of humility. Though He was in the form of God, He did not think it was robbing God to be equal with God or, some versions, He did not think His equality with God was something to be grasped or held onto no matter what, but instead made Himself of no reputation, taking on the form of man and humbling Himself even to a death on the cross. That's the lowest of the low. But afterward He was exalted with a Name above every name and a position that was back to His original where every knee would bow and declare Him to be LORD to the glory of God.

So, we see the incarnation where He Who was in the form of God and equal with God took on the form of a man/servant/slave. Now, Paul would reason, if HE can do THAT, you Philippians should follow His example and be humble too. Now, His example was probably not given to explain God as much as to exhort humility. But we learn from it, if we can receive it. Paul was given so many revelations that he was also given that thorn in the flesh to keep HIM humble. Let's hope we can be humble enough to receive the truth given and not exalt our minds to reject it because we don't understand it.

In any event, when "the Word became flesh" or when He Who was in the form of God and equal with God took on the form of a servant, the question becomes, Did He cease to be God? His "form" or outward expression did change and when that became that of a servant, all the aspects of servanthood came with it---hunger, thirst, tiredness, etc. So in that respect it is sometimes said He was 100% man. But can He Who was equal with God cease to be that? No, and so in that respect it is sometimes said He was still 100% God. Personally, I don't understand that any more than you do. 100% + !00% seems to = 200%, which doesn't make sense. But He certainly humbled Himself to limit Himself to whatever God wanted, subjecting Himself 100% to the will of His Father, doing and saying ONLY what His Father lead Him to do and say, subjecting His own will 100% to the will of His Father. But the fact that there were separate wills whereby He could have called it all off and not gone to the cross, shows a distinction of entities, even if both had the same essence, substance, and nature.
 
Phil like always I do respect your belief and welcome your honest opinions.

I am quite confused by Philippians 2.

Philippians 2:
3. Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
4. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
5. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7. but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I see that as a statement that Jesus(as) was not God(swt) but, that God(swt) elevated him to a status above all other men. Just my opinion, astragfirullah
 
Wodroow, it doesn't seem to me these verses to refer to One God , or do they?

That is how I see them also. To me they are identifying 3 separate people and that Jesus(as) is the least of them. I could be confused, but that is what I see.
 
That is how I see them also. To me they are identifying 3 separate people and that Jesus(as) is the least of them. I could be confused, but that is what I see.
Every religious book I've come across always referred Judaism and Islam as the two monotheistic religions, but never included Christianity.
the idea of One God in Christinity must be a new concept.
 
Again, the idea of Jesus son of Mary being a prophet in that scenario would make much more sense. However, we know that Jesus son of Mary is so honorable in the sight of God that he wasn't even killed, rather he was raised up to God without being killed, and he will return once again near the final hour. That shows much more honor and love of God/Allaah for Jesus son of Mary, the honorable Messiah (peace be upon him.)

If Jesus chose to go to the cross, or to obey God Who sent Him to the cross, it is not a matter of "honor" or being too "honorable" for that to occur. In my opinion, Muhammad could not conceive of such a thing being honorable or good. To him it spelled defeat for Jesus and victory for His enemies, so his "revelation" from Gabriel was to deny that that could have occurred.

Consider the mindset of Muhammad at that time. He was fighting off enemies of monotheism, with that belief being HIS "killer point" to end all points. He was not considering redemption or atonement or anything remotely close to "the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world." Christianity, as HE saw it, was idolatry and anything BUT monotheism, with the "worship" or veneration of Mary, various saints, statues, relics, etc. Rather than simply correct those excesses, he went to the other extreme and denied the Deity of Christ and His atoning sacrifice for sins.

So he accomplished the denial of any worship that he saw as not being to God alone, but destroyed the only means today by which a person can receive forgiveness of sins---the atoning sacrifice of Christ at Calvary. Biblical Christianity fulfills the O.T. faith of Abraham, but Islam reverses and destroys what is a beautiful picture of God reaching down to man to lift him out of his sin, all apart from any "good" works he may have. What started out as strict obedience to the Law (Judaism) and then moved to the Grace of God and salvation apart from the deeds of the Law (Christianity) had ended up in Islam as being a reversion to strict obedience to a new and sometimes stricter Law, Islamic law. That's not of God, not right, and it doesn't even make sense.
 

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