Who & what is Israel?

[therebbe]

מַחֲמַדִּים there we have it Machmudim!

Machmaddim = altogether lovely

_____


Song of Songs 5:16 "His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."

Problem:

• The underlined word is the Hebrew Machmaddim. Moslems claim that this word is a reference to Muhammad for two reasons,The word Machmad (singular of Machmaddim) sounds a bit like the name Muhammad
• The word Machmad means The praised one (i.e. the one worthy of praise); this, they assert, must be Muhammad!

Solution:

1. The logic of the assertion that the word Machmad is Muhammad because the two words sound a bit similar is somewhat specious. The name John sounds a bit like the Arabic Jinn, but there is no connection between the two. Similarly a connection on the grounds that the word means "the praised one" falls short of a guaranteed logical link; has only one person in the world ever been praised?
2. The context of the passage identifies the person described as Machmad as someone in the time of Solomon (Song 3:11) who is loved by a Shulamite (Song 6:13). He is red-haired (Song 5:10). None of these descriptions fits Muhammad who never visited Shunem in his life.
3. A search of all the occurrences of the word Machmad in the Bible shows that the word has nothing to do with praise. It simply refers to whatever is desirable for whatever reason and is derived from the root chamad which means desire.
4. If one is to accept that the word Machmad refers to Muhammad then one should look at all the occurrences of that word. When one does this one can see why only the occurrence in the Song of Solomon is cited by Moslems. The others tell one that Machmad was destroyed (2 Chron. 36:19), was to be laid waste (Isa. 64:10-11), has been taken captive by an enemy (Lam. 1:10), has been traded for food (Lam. 1:11), has been slain by God (Lam. 2:4; Hos. 9:16), has been removed by G-d (Ezek. 24:16), is to be profaned by God (Ezek. 24:21), is to be buried in nettles (Hos. 9:6) and been carried away by pagans into their temples (Joel 3:5). Even an unkind person would not attribute all these things to Muhammad.

http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/a08islam/song5v16.html

 

[جوري]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1837525168870785121
This is really good.. Dr. Ahmed deedat was brilliant.. may Allah receive him in his heavens and have mercy on his soul....... He goes into such details on names, their derivatives... how they are lost in the translation...... I don't think I can write anything here that will overshadow this video......

P.S on a side note..... john even if it sounds like Jinn the meaning of the word is what matters... john is from Yohanna (yahya) People just like to add a J to everything here....... yousef becomes joseph... yasmine becomes jasmine etc etc

Jinn litterally means that which can't be seen since Jinns are hidden from us..... it is used to also describe someone who is possessed by something unseen like Majnoon although using the word Majnoon in general is understood to be crazy in every day tongue.... and another derivative is the word Janna or paradise...again that which is hidden from sight.... many different spins.... many are the ways I can use the same word to describe something horrible (jinn) someone crazy (majnoon) or something wonderful (janna) heaven in different situations, and in different passages..... the importance is the solidity of the word in the native semitic tongue and how and why it is used........

carry that through...... I can use the word Moustapha which is also a name of the prophet mohammed PBUH (chosen), Istpha 'abidh... "chose his servant" I can use it "kama law kont austopheet lil'azhab" meaning as if I were chosen for suffering does that mean even though it is the name of the prophet (PBUH) that it applies to him, just because I used it in a different passage or statment that means something awful?.... ....

Again, same with annointed which was used to decribe Jesus PUBH.... annoited can be the lambs, or angels or your new sheets of laundry..... or even a regular Joe who was made king for a day by some perfuming ritual again does it mean the annoited Joe is Jesus?....... It is the context with which it is used and when it is used and why it was used that matters along with the meaning of the word itself..

one last note...... according to some Jews I know adding an
(em) to the end of a word denotes respect... not a spin on the words feel free to contradict that...... Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) imam Al3'almeen is {praise worthy} The name Muhammad etymologically means "the praised one" in Arabic..... sala Allah 3lyhi wasalaam, wa 3la Alih was7bih ajm3een inshallah.......
with that written.....I am tired and need to sign off...... I'd have done a better Job had I been more lucid, but why tamper with Dr Ahmed deedat perfection... he has done my home work for me....:smile:

 

[therebbe]

according to some Jews I know adding an
(em) to the end of a word denotes respect...

:giggling:

Okay, whatever they say I guess.... lol, do your Jewish friends know anything at all?

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Shalom , Therebe,

The general view is that the Moshiach will not just redeem the children of Israel, he will redeem mankind from meaninglessness, and teach the purpose of life to the universe, in otherwords he will come for the whole of mankind. not just exclusively for the children of Israel. Brother i am telling you he has already been! Dont miss the last train! He was Muhammad saws. The description fits. I lay you another topic alongside the ones we have going. You give us a description of the Moshiach and we will match it with the description of Muhammad peace be upon him.

Thank you! I did post this same answer on another thread... that if the Moshiach (Mahdi, etc.) comes, no one gets "wiped out" and I stand by that understanding. The one who earns this title will be responsible for identifying and ordering all the tribes (of all the peoples) under one council and resolving every dispute to the satisfaction of everyone concerned. Justice will prevail.

Ninth Scribe

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

I'm sorry but it has not. The Mosque on the Mount has none of the requirements for the Temple, and it accomplishes none of the things that must be accomplished in it. Like sacrifices. Therefore Muhommad did not build the third temple, therefore Muhommod i another of hundreds of people to claim they were Moshiach and be false.

And I suppose the attempts to genetically engineer a red heifer would be counted as a legal sign from Hashem?

Don't think I haven't been watching.

Ninth Scribe

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

:giggling:

Okay, whatever they say I guess.... lol, do your Jewish friends know anything at all?

You shouldn't laugh. It's sad to see the teachings become so distorted. But then again. I'm still trying to figure out who told the Greeks that the word Nephilim meant 'giants'.

Ninth Scribe

 

[Andaraawus]

Plural of respect right , the plural of majesty like Elohim ... from Eloah

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

I do not think you understand what the exile was.

Really? Please consider the fact that Malak Paras (King of Persia) gave your people a decree to return... to the land of Judea and Jerusalem.

Ask yourself: Why didn't Ezra (Uzayr) petition a claim to the lands of the Israelites as well?

Ninth Scribe

 

[therebbe]

Ask yourself: Why didn't Ezra (Uzayr) petition a claim to the lands of the Israelites as well?

At that time they were there and an actual people. Now the remnants of these tribes have not once claimed they care for a seperate country. Even if they did... how would it solve any problem for Muslims? So now there are two jewish countries on the land of Israel. Both follow Torah, both probably have similar laws.

 

[Andaraawus]

land of Israel

We have already estabalished that Israel is not a land,please discontinue with that notion. You may be a child of Israel, and you may have a right to Canaan, but be just - the seed of Avraham is more than just Yitshaq.

 

[Ulysses]

Did anyone see the recent evidence about our common human history that was found in the soil in Hadar region of Ethiopia earlier this year?

She is being called Lucy's Daughter http://www.economist.com/science/displayStory.cfm?story_id=7939767

 

[Andaraawus]

No but i seen a brilliant documentary or two that are totally irrelevant to the topic at hand http://www.evolutiondeceit.com/

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

At that time they were there and an actual people. Now the remnants of these tribes have not once claimed they care for a seperate country. Even if they did... how would it solve any problem for Muslims? So now there are two jewish countries on the land of Israel. Both follow Torah, both probably have similar laws.

Wrong. He didn't petition for those lands because he was not entitled to them, per the Torah, and he did not have the authority to speak on behalf of the other tribes.

You're entitlement, according to the Torah, are the lands of Judah and Benjamin. You do not have the authority to speak on behalf of the other tribes. You do not have any legal claim to the lands of the 10 tribes. That land should be awarded to Palestine - so we can be done with all this dissent (blowing stuff up). I, for one, could never bring myself to recognize this new state you call Israel, and if the American people knew only half of what I know... well, enough said.

Ninth Scribe

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

the seed of Avraham is more than just Yitshaq.

Thank you! The law of all the people is "Honor your Ancestors" and there is a severe price to be paid for turning on your own bloodline. That is what caused the fall of the Temple of Jerusalem... both times!

Ninth Scribe

 

[Andaraawus]

That is what caused the fall of the Temple of Jerusalem... both times!

We cant forget the tribal killings of the two Jewish groups the Sephardim and the Ashkenazim. They dont seem to learn. Thank Allah my mother wasnt Jewish! I am considered a product of a posthumous victory to Hitler, due to my grandfather marrying a Christian women. Id rather call it a fortunate escape. Otherwise i may have been shackled under the smokescreens of Zionism.

 

[therebbe]

You're entitlement, according to the Torah, are the lands of Judah and Benjamin.

My entitlement is under the fact that I follow the Torah and G-d's law.

I, for one, could never bring myself to recognize this new state you call Israel, and if the American people knew only half of what I know... well, enough said.

If Americans thought like you we would give medals of honor to baby killers like Zarqawi.

the seed of Avraham is more than just Yitshaq.

Yet, it was Yitzkhak's seed that was given Israel, and he was the one that was almost sacrificed.

We cant forget the tribal killings of the two Jewish groups the Sephardim and the Ashkenazim. They dont seem to learn.

I started laughing at the amound of knowledge you do not pocess about Jewish culture.

Want to talk about violence between to groups of the same religion? Look at Iraq.

 

[جوري]

Issac wasn't even born when God asked Abraham to sacrifice his ONLY son as per your bible. Ismael is his first born....... but we can keep at this till kingdom come!

Iraqis are now three times more likely to die of various things including ca and heart disease since the presence of Americans on their soil... so please don't come and speak of baby and people killers........ enough of this it is sickening


Study: 655,000 Iraqis Died Due to War
Oct 10 11:43 PM US/Eastern

By MALCOLM RITTER
AP Science Writer

NEW YORK

A controversial new study contends nearly 655,000 Iraqis have died because of the war, suggesting a far higher death toll than other estimates.

The timing of the survey's release, just a few weeks before the U.S. congressional elections, led one expert to call it "politics."

In the new study, researchers attempt to calculate how many more Iraqis have died since March 2003 than one would expect without the war. Their conclusion, based on interviews of households and not a body count, is that about 600,000 died from violence, mostly gunfire. They also found a small increase in deaths from other causes like heart disease and cancer.

"Deaths are occurring in Iraq now at a rate more than three times that from before the invasion of March 2003," Dr. Gilbert Burnham, lead author of the study, said in a statement.

The study by Burnham, of the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, and others is to be published Thursday on the Web site of The Lancet, a medical journal.

An accurate count of Iraqi deaths has been difficult to obtain, but one respected group puts its rough estimate at closer to 50,000. And at least one expert was skeptical of the new findings.

"They're almost certainly way too high," said Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic & International Studies in Washington. He criticized the way the estimate was derived and noted that the results were released shortly before the Nov. 7 election.

"This is not analysis, this is politics," Cordesman said.

The work updates an earlier Johns Hopkins study _ that one was released just before the November 2005 presidential election. At the time, the lead researcher, Les Roberts of Hopkins, said the timing was deliberate. Many of the same researchers were involved in the latest estimate.

Speaking of the new study, Burnham said the estimate was much higher than others because it was derived from a house-to-house survey rather than approaches that depend on body counts or media reports.

A private group called Iraqi Body Count, for example, says it has recorded about 44,000 to 49,000 civilian Iraqi deaths. But it notes that those totals are based on media reports, which it says probably overlook "many if not most civilian casualties."

For Burnham's study, researchers gathered data from a sample of 1,849 Iraqi households with a total of 12,801 residents from late May to early July. That sample was used to extrapolate the total figure. The estimate deals with deaths up to July.

The survey participants attributed about 31 percent of violent deaths to coalition forces.

Accurate death tolls have been difficult to obtain ever since the Iraq conflict began in March 2003. When top Iraqi political officials cite death numbers, they often refuse to say where the numbers came from.

The Health Ministry, which tallies civilian deaths, relies on reports from government hospitals and morgues. The Interior Ministry compiles its figures from police stations, while the Defense Ministry reports deaths only among army soldiers and insurgents killed in combat.

The United Nations keeps its own count, based largely on reports from the Baghdad morgue and the Health Ministry.

The major funder of the new study was the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

___

On the Net:

The Lancet: http://www.thelancet.com

Iraqi Body Count: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

 

[therebbe]

Issac wasn't even born when God asked Abraham to sacrifice his ONLY son as per your bible. Ismael is his first born....... but we can keep at this till kingdom come!

Oh really? UNTRUE.

When Isaac was about twenty-five years of age, the L-rd tried Abraham and commanded him to sacrifice his son. Abraham obeyed and took Isaac, with two of his servants, to the place the Lord should show him. On the third day, discerning the place (supposed to be mount Moriah), he took the wood as for a burn-offering, placed it on his son Isaac, and took fire in his hand and a knife. As they went together toward the mount, Isaac said, "We have the fire and the wood, but where is the sacrifice for the burnt-offering?". Abraham answered. "Dear son, G-d will provide a lamb for himself."
When they had arrived at the appointed place, Abraham put the wood in order, bound his beloved son Isaac as a sacrifice, and taking the knife, stretched forth his hand to kill him. But an angel of the L-rd prevented him doing so and provided another sacrifice (a sheep).

When Ishmael was about 16 years old, he angered Sarah by mocking Isaac and causing trouble, and she asked Abraham to send him away. G-d then later told Abraham to do so and he would take care of Ishmael. See:Genesis 21

At 16 Ismael when he was sent away, and Isaac was 25 when almost sacrificed.

 

[جوري]

very unlikely story considering the source... but you can believe that if you want! The rest of us know better!
the place of Ismael sacrifice was in where mecca is today... and the water that Hagar found zamzam started the migration of entire tribes to that region....

 

[therebbe]

very unlikely story considering the source... but you can believe that if you want! The rest of us know better!
the place of Ismael sacrifice was in where mecca is today... and the water that Hagar found zamzam started the migration of entire tribes to that region....

The source is the Bible.

You states the Bible says your opinion. I proved your wrong by pointing you to what the bible says. You can believe the Quran story if you want but don't claim the Bible makes your point when it obviously does not.