Why did Islam invade Spain?

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Greetings,

HeiGou said:
You did not say it belonged to God but to the Muslims. Why did you make that comment? Do you think that God has, in fact, given all the world to the Muslims and they are the rightful owners?

[7.128] ... surely the land is Allah's; He causes such of His servants to inherit it as He pleases, and the end is for those who guard (against evil).

Regarding the topic of Enlightenment... I would just like to clarify whether or not we are talking about the same thing here. Perhaps it was initially used in a general sense of the word and taken to mean a specific turn in history known by that name? Can someone please clarify?

Peace.
 
Greetings,
Regarding the topic of Enlightenment... I would just like to clarify whether or not we are talking about the same thing here. Perhaps it was initially used in a general sense of the word and taken to mean a specific turn in history known by that name? Can someone please clarify?

You could be right. Here's something I wrote earlier in an attempt to clarify how I understand the term:
czgibson said:
What I'm asking about is the Enlightenment - the tide of rationality that spread through Europe during the 18th century, culminating with the modern scientific world view and increasing secularism. I was unaware that Islam had made any contribution to that, but I'd like to find out if this is indeed the case.

Peace
 
So you're answer is "yes the Americans are justified in invading Saudi Arabia"? How else do you stop someone? And how about Iraq and Afghanistan which also prohibited Christians and Jews preaching Christianity and Judaism?

They were goping against Islamic teachings but they were not killing people - to stop people you can just have them removed from your land or arrest them and hand them over to the other land they came from. So an American invasion was not justified and even if you look at what the Americans are doing now is worse than what saddam Hussein did - anyone who speaks agains the US becomes an insurgent? Open your eyes and see the truth - the US is supressing the Iraqi and Afghani people and the govt we talk about is their govt (US imposed)

Why do you think it is relevant?
This is relevant because we are talking about why Muslims invaded Spain - but the topic keeps drifting to us invasion of iraq for some reason

I do not see that as an act of war. Why do you think it is?
If people are unjustly killed, justice must be provided to their families. And if the culprits are govts who refuse to give justice and stop these acts, then yes it becomes an act of war in Islam.
 
They were goping against Islamic teachings but they were not killing people - to stop people you can just have them removed from your land or arrest them and hand them over to the other land they came from. So an American invasion was not justified and even if you look at what the Americans are doing now is worse than what saddam Hussein did - anyone who speaks agains the US becomes an insurgent? Open your eyes and see the truth - the US is supressing the Iraqi and Afghani people and the govt we talk about is their govt (US imposed)

Well I do not think it is true that what the US is doing is worse, but then I think that what the Muslims did in Spain was worse than what the Spanish were doing before the Muslims arrived. Saudi Arabia has the death penalty for people who preach Christianity. So if they did execute someone for it, that would be a valid reason for the US to invade?

This is relevant because we are talking about why Muslims invaded Spain - but the topic keeps drifting to us invasion of iraq for some reason

But that has nothing to do with why the Muslim invaded Spain.

If people are unjustly killed, justice must be provided to their families. And if the culprits are govts who refuse to give justice and stop these acts, then yes it becomes an act of war in Islam.

So then the US has the right to invade Egypt because of the Sinai bombings?
 
so many post...you come here everyday almost to do what? make people disbeleive? to question there faith? tell me what are you offering?

you question our belifs and take a stand against us? on what basis?
hate? anger? your just bored?

you offer nothing expect hate and disbelif...

you expect those of faith to listen to yourselves? ive heard islam be called intolrent , barbaric, a lie , a religon that wishes to take freedom , a religon that accepts no other religon?

do those who speak know of what they speak!? simple answer no...
otherwise why would they bother to say these things..and im sure many muslims as they read this know exactly what i mean...

by the time you find out what islam truly is you will know that peace in the only way it can be spread and justice and peace is our aim...

we accept ever prophet so how can we insult your religons...

we accept the bible and the torah so ho can we be said to be intolreant to its followers!?

as ive said...no muslim army has come to make you change your ways or claim your land....

its quite the opposite...

no muslim talked of changing your understandings and belif yet muslims MUST be democratic? (i find nothing wrong with TRUE democracy but we all know that aint whats spreading in iraq)why?

why must muslims be more open wear western clothes , watch western programs? act western...

who is attacking who??

and who is defending who?

your right a peoples freedom is at stake...just try and think a little harder on who those people are...

and think before you post your questions filled with disbelif and your quotes full of hatred...

i see no muslims telling you NOT to beleive, i see no muslims taking your freedom...

it is said no matter how hard the people of god will try and explain the disbeleivers will never listen...

seems to be a fact...hey?
 
There was never a time learning Arabic was illegal or that the teaching of Islam was prohibited.

Strongly DISAGREE with you, I have read many books in Arabic were Algerians themselves described their suffuring, they didnt have nay kind of religous freedom. Now u tell me which books r more reliable? the ones which were written by Arab Muslims who lived the horror ..or some western men who never stepped their foot on Algerian land?

Our argument was and is exactly about the Mughals. You claimed that the Hindus of India were happy under Muslim rule. This is self-evident nonsense as any text book would tell you.

My Mom told me that in school, in history classes, they learned bout the Mughls n stuff, n I asked her did u guys study bout Auranghzib n his liks n how they opressed the Hindus? She said never in school they learned such thing, Indian goverment Text books DOSNT have anything where it says that Aurangzhib oppressed n killd. Now for sake of objectivity, we know that no one is perfect, n maybe there were some incidents...but not in a large number. Trust me if Aurangzib commited many crimes agains Hindus, Indian History text book would never miss that.

Also, I found out that Hindu-Muslim conflict did exist prior British invasion but it dramaticly increased under their rule.

And the answer is not a big yes for the period of British rule - unlike Muslim rule. It is more complicated in the case of British India. The British did many good things and they did some bad things. The Mughals built the Taj Mahal.

Watever good thigns the British did, given the chance, indian would have achived the same just in a little more time. But the bad things they commited r so profound that Indian muslims n Hindus r still suffuring its consequences.

All that happned at times where Militery wars were considered a universal language. Now things changed
.
But what has changed - Islamic law or kafirs?

The situation changed, therefore, Islamic approach to the problame changes. N dont ask me to wat it changed? coz I dont have the answer for that q.

Because there is no evidence for it worth mentioning and because the Spanish fought longer and harder with many more deaths than the Algerians to be rid of Muslim rule. They did not think it was good, why should I? But I am happy to apply universal standards - if the Muslim invasion of Spain was good, French rule in Algeria was better. Do you disagree?

Yes, I disagree.

Better buildings, better roads, better health, better economy. An introduction to the modern world and science. What about values? France left the Algerians under Islamic law. Principles? The French taught some of those too. French justice was pretty good actually

Where is Algeria now?
 
Greetings,

Regarding the topic of Enlightenment... I would just like to clarify whether or not we are talking about the same thing here. Perhaps it was initially used in a general sense of the word and taken to mean a specific turn in history known by that name? Can someone please clarify?

Peace.

yes it was used in the general sense of the word.
 
Well I do not think it is true that what the US is doing is worse, but then I think that what the Muslims did in Spain was worse than what the Spanish were doing before the Muslims arrived. Saudi Arabia has the death penalty for people who preach Christianity. So if they did execute someone for it, that would be a valid reason for the US to invade?

What the Muslims did for spain was far better than what was being done before - under Islamic law Spain thrived to be the greatest place in all of Europe! While in Europe people lived in pretty bad conditions, in Islamic spain they got to see the latest technologies and beautiful buildings and roads. I strongly suggest you try and watch "Islam Empire of Faith" by PBS -its a documentary made by non muslims on islam and how it changed the world!
Aditionally I have never heard of a death penalty in Saudia Arabia on people preaching Christianity.

But that has nothing to do with why the Muslim invaded Spain.
it has everything to do with why Muslims invaded Spain - Church would have us believe that Muslims were a barbaric nation who came to civilized Europe, but the TRUTH is its the opposite way around!

So then the US has the right to invade Egypt because of the Sinai bombings?
Egypt and Us are allies best to my knowledge - but yes if the usa wanted it could have made it a valid excuse to invade them...after all it invaded Iraq with no reasons lol
 
Egypt and Us are allies best to my knowledge - but yes if the usa wanted it could have made it a valid excuse to invade them...after all it invaded Iraq with no reasons lol
little slow today HeiGou? did the Egyptian gov sanction the bombing and then refuse to investigate it or even promoted it? because that is the topic of discussion here, those muslim missonaries were killed by the gov and the gov sanctioned it
 
Strongly DISAGREE with you, I have read many books in Arabic were Algerians themselves described their suffuring, they didnt have nay kind of religous freedom. Now u tell me which books r more reliable? the ones which were written by Arab Muslims who lived the horror ..or some western men who never stepped their foot on Algerian land?

Name me one such book. Not only did they have all the religious freedom they wanted, but some Muslim leaders, especially the Sufi orders, were active supporters of French rule. Not that this stopped the Algerian Salafi reformers coming along and attacking the Sufis either. The question is not a choice between Algerian Arabs and Westerners who have never set foot in Algeria - after all millions of Frenchmen were born in Algeria. It is between the historical record and truth on the one hand and propaganda and lies on the other. Find me some books on the Algerian period that make this claim.

My Mom told me that in school, in history classes, they learned bout the Mughls n stuff, n I asked her did u guys study bout Auranghzib n his liks n how they opressed the Hindus? She said never in school they learned such thing, Indian goverment Text books DOSNT have anything where it says that Aurangzhib oppressed n killd. Now for sake of objectivity, we know that no one is perfect, n maybe there were some incidents...but not in a large number. Trust me if Aurangzib commited many crimes agains Hindus, Indian History text book would never miss that.

First of all India has had a policy of reconciliation with the Muslims, but I assume you that Indian history texts do not miss that. You are holding up the opinion of your Mother based on what she can remember from primary school as proof?

Aurangzeb (from Persian, اورنگ‌زیب Aurang means throne and Zaib meant beauty or ornament),(November 3, 1618 – March 3, 1707, also known as Alamgir I, was the ruler of the Mughal Empire from 1658 until 1707. He was a very controversial figure in South Asian history, and is considered a tyrant by most Hindus, Sikhs, and other non-Muslim Indians.

Unlike his predecessors, Aurangzeb was remarkably pious and zealous. Strict adherence to Islam and Sharia (Islamic law)—as he interpreted them—were the foundations of his reign. He instituted these beliefs in the empire, abandoning the religious tolerance of his predecessors. During his reign, many Hindu temples were defaced and destroyed, and many non-Muslims (mostly Hindus) converted (widely believed forcibly) to Islam; the jizya, a head tax on non-Muslims, was reinstated during his rule.

This picture of Aurangzeb, and his unflinching use of vast military might in his goals, leaves him as one of the most controversial figures in Indian history. He ruled India for a period of 48 years (comparable to that of Akbar, regarded the greatest Mughal emperor); he also expanded the Mughal Empire to its greatest extent, leaving only the south tip of the Indian subcontinent independent from Mughal rule. However, his constant policies of war left the empire dangerously overextended, isolated from its strong allies of Rajputs, and with a population that (except for the Muslim minority) expressed resent, if not outright rebellion, to his reign. Aurangzeb's successors lacked his strong hand in suppressing high levels of Mughal opposition, and the Hindu Maratha Confederacy mostly replaced Mughal rule during the rest of the 18th century. Nevertheless, Aurangzeb is generally regarded as the last "great" Mughal ruler, and his religious policies have added to Muslim-Hindu conflict in India, wielding influence even in modern times.

Also, I found out that Hindu-Muslim conflict did exist prior British invasion but it dramaticly increased under their rule.

Well that is some progress. Increased in what sense? How many Hindus were murdered by Muslims after the British arrived?

Watever good thigns the British did, given the chance, indian would have achived the same just in a little more time. But the bad things they commited r so profound that Indian muslims n Hindus r still suffuring its consequences.

There is no evidence for the first claim - India's economy had not done well before the British arrived. In fact it had stayed roughly where it was when the Muslim invaded. It did not do well after they left either until recently. What bad things did the British do - build railways?

Yes, I disagree.

On what possible grounds? By any measure the French were more tolerant in Algeria than the Muslims were in Spain and the economic and social progress under the French grossly out-weighed that of the Muslims in Spain. How do you claim what you claim?

Where is Algeria now?

Much worse off, oil apart, than when the French were there.
 
little slow today HeiGou? did the Egyptian gov sanction the bombing and then refuse to investigate it or even promoted it? because that is the topic of discussion here, those muslim missonaries were killed by the gov and the gov sanctioned it

Well a little slow yesterday. Long day. But that quote above was not mine. Nor do I believe the story as anything other than fiction. Nor did Akulion make the claim that the government was responsible. I am trying to find out the limits of what he thinks justifies invasion. And yes, the Egyptian government is clearly to blame for the climate of opinion that makes the bombing possible, and the incompetence with which it is investigated.
 
So an American invasion was not justified and even if you look at what the Americans are doing now is worse than what saddam Hussein did - anyone who speaks agains the US becomes an insurgent? Open your eyes and see the truth - the US is supressing the Iraqi and Afghani people and the govt we talk about is their govt (US imposed)

I disagree. There are plenty of new political parties in Iraq that are fiercely anti-American and want America to leave as soon as possible. Similarly, since the invasion the number of newspapers and TV stations has skyrocketed and they frequently 'speak against the US'. Clearly your statement that they consider any opposition as 'insurgents' is just ludicrous.

Iraqis may not like the US better than Saddam, but they most obviously now have the means to express that opposition where they previously did not.
 
What the Muslims did for spain was far better than what was being done before - under Islamic law Spain thrived to be the greatest place in all of Europe!

And Algeria thrived to be one of the leading Muslim states. Not hard really if you think about it.

While in Europe people lived in pretty bad conditions, in Islamic spain they got to see the latest technologies and beautiful buildings and roads.

Absolutely. As the Algerians did in Algeria under the French too.

Aditionally I have never heard of a death penalty in Saudia Arabia on people preaching Christianity.

So the law is working then.

it has everything to do with why Muslims invaded Spain - Church would have us believe that Muslims were a barbaric nation who came to civilized Europe, but the TRUTH is its the opposite way around!

Well I could argue over that - the Persians also believed that the Arabs were a barbaric nation that ate snakes and lizards. But then the Arabs expanded into Roman territory and came across the products of European civilisation.

Egypt and Us are allies best to my knowledge - but yes if the usa wanted it could have made it a valid excuse to invade them...after all it invaded Iraq with no reasons lol

Excellent news for the neo-Cons.
 
Name me one such book. Not only did they have all the religious freedom they wanted, Find me some books on the Algerian period that make this claim.

Unfortunatnly, these books which r in Arabic r no more in my parents house, dad send them to India. But I do trust my memory.

well how bout couple of links?
http://www.alarabiya.net/Articles/2006/05/02/23382.htm
This artical stats that French men burned almost (8000) eight thousand villages including men n women who lived in these villages during their stay in ALgeria.

http://www.m-moudjahidine.dz/Histoire/Dossiers/D57.htm
here u will read bout the kind of oppression the Algerians lived, n how mosques where distructed n how learning Arabic n learing Islam was forbidden.

First of all India has had a policy of reconciliation with the Muslims, but I assume you that Indian history texts do not miss that. You are holding up the opinion of your Mother based on what she can remember from primary school as proof?

Yes, Any pro with that?

Aurangzeb (from Persian, اورنگ‌زیب Aurang means throne and Zaib meant beauty or ornament),(November 3, 1618 – March 3, 1707, also known as Alamgir I, was the ruler of the Mughal Empire from 1658 until 1707. He was a very controversial figure in South Asian history, and is considered a tyrant by most Hindus, Sikhs, and other non-Muslim Indians.​



Oh u refferd to Wikipedia..:)...well, still that doesnt mean that British invasion didnt create the worst kind of damage within Indian community. U see for this I dont need to reffer u to books n that sort, its a common knowledge in India, not just Muslims belive so, but also Hindus.

Now since I am the indian here,,,,n u r the one who is questioning my understanding of my own history, I demand that u mention ur sources for such claim, n i am telling u, If i consider these sources as unrelaibale, then I have every right to refuse accepting these openions of urs.​
 
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First u asid
The British did many good things and they did some bad things

I assumed that U knew some of the bad thing the British did in India, but then u changed ur mind n decided not to share that with us, u said

What bad things did the British do - build railways?

With the imposition of direct rule, the economy of India became even more closely linked than before with that of Britain. The opening of the Suez Canal in 1869 reduced the sailing time between Britain and India from about three months to only three weeks, enabling London to exercise tight control over all aspects of Indian trade. Railroads, roads, and communications were developed to bring raw materials, especially cotton, to ports for shipment to England, and manufactured goods from England for sale in an expanding Indian market. Development schemes, such as massive irrigation projects in the Punjab, were also intended to serve the purpose of enriching England. Indian entrepreneurs were not encouraged to develop their own industries.

Although some industrialization took place during this period, its benefits did not reach the majority of the Indian population.


In a layman's langauge that is called Enslavment, oppression n Stealing resources.
 
I assumed that U knew some of the bad thing the British did in India, but then u changed ur mind n decided not to share that with us,

I do not deny that the British did some bad things in India. But what do you know that they did that was bad?

With the imposition of direct rule, the economy of India became even more closely linked than before with that of Britain. The opening of the Suez Canal in 1869 reduced the sailing time between Britain and India from about three months to only three weeks, enabling London to exercise tight control over all aspects of Indian trade.

So they encouraged the Indian economy by developping markets in Britain? This is oppression? They helped India by bringing their exports within three weeks of Europe. This is oppression?

Railroads, roads, and communications were developed to bring raw materials, especially cotton, to ports for shipment to England, and manufactured goods from England for sale in an expanding Indian market.

So they built railways, roads and ports to help Indian exports? How dare they! An expanding Indian market? You mean the Indian economy was growing?

Development schemes, such as massive irrigation projects in the Punjab, were also intended to serve the purpose of enriching England. Indian entrepreneurs were not encouraged to develop their own industries.

Development projects? The swine! Massive irrigation projects? The dogs! Not encouraged is (a) not true - ask the Tatas and (b) is not the same as forbidding. Look at the Tatas.

Although some industrialization took place during this period, its benefits did not reach the majority of the Indian population.

Although some industrialisation took place. Wow. You mean they actually built factories in India? One thing is for sure, no industrialisation means that no benefits reach any Indians.

In a layman's langauge that is called Enslavment, oppression n Stealing resources.

No it is not. It is called slow but sure minor economic improvement.
 
Ok I think there are more than 1 or 2 debates going on here lol I dont know where Algeria and then US army and all the stuff came in from - this was about Spain in the middle ages :p

So either ways I have expressed my opinions best to my knowledge - so insha'allah I take my leave now.
Thank you all for the fruitful discussion (even if it wasnt fruitful still thanks lol)
 

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