Why do you reject Islam

[mansio]

Ansar ul 'Adl,

I don't understand what's wrong with my translations.

You say "as-samâ" is better translated as "heaven". I did so.

Of course "ad-dunya" isn't "al-ard" because one is the world and the other the earth.
You say "dunya" means world/universe and you translate it with "cosmic". So where's the problem ? Cosmic comes from Greek "kosmos" which means universe. If I slightly change my translation from world to universe then we agree again.

I think we aren't talking about the same thing : I'm talking about translation and you're talking about interpretations.

I've put down for you the very words of the Quran. Please accept them and do not try to modify them.
Here they are again in Arabic :

67-5) Wa (and) ja`al (made) nâ (We) hâ (her= the lamps) rujûman (missiles) li (for) sh (the) shayâtîni (devils).

So now tell me why my translation is a mistranslation. Which word hasn't been translated correctly?

I really wonder how you can understand the Quran if it's interpretation is a never-ending science. Or is it because it's meaning is sometimes too mundane to allow a plain translation ?
That reminds me of the Catholics that were forbidden for centuries to read the Bible by themselves. They had to hear from it through priests.

The assimilation of Dhu l-Qarnayn with Alexander has nothing to do with Yusuf Ali. This story has been picked up (again, I'm sorry) from Christian legends concerning Alexander the Great.

2-228) I'm ready to admit your interpretation about the rights of the wives as I know that every translator has interpreted it like you. I can read several languages and I've never counted all the different translations of the Quran I could refer to. I've even started a translation from Arabic to Turkish but I stopped it because the two languages have a too different structure.

I see that you mentioned dear old Doctor Bucaille. If the Prophet was illiterate he was neither deaf nor mute to listen to and to discuss with Jews or Christians. "Ummiyy" means also "who hasn't received a revelation" and doesn't imply necessarily that one cannot write. Besides as a business-man and a stateman he could dictate anytime to his secretaries. The scientific truths in the Quran were nothing new. You just had to ask the proper persons to find out about the science of the time and then have it written down in the Quran. Even the errors were passed along.

Salâm.

 

[_salam_]

WabbaJ,
Welcome to the forum, and I appreciate your inquiry.

A number of points may be mentioned in response to this absurd notion.

Let us point out the purpose behing praying the manner that we do:

1. Islam is a divinely ordained system. God has given us specific guidelines which will ensure our success in this life and the next. The two sources of Islam are the Qur'an and Sunnah. The Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad pbuh has been to pray in rows facing the Kaabah, which acts as a focal point directing worship of God across the globe and throughout time.

2. The manner is which we pray is pleasing to God and is the smae manner in which the angels pray in heaven. By joining together in rows, the prayer forms an organized pattern, and promotes unity and solidarity.

3. I cannot imagine how praying in a circle grants anymore equality than rows. A circle would have a number of problems. The whole notion of praying towards the Kaabah would have to be discarded. The Imaam would be standing in the center implying some sense of divinity. Rows would still be necessary to accomodate more people, unless one proposses widening the circle, which would only result in a waste of space. Mosques would have to be ten times larger to accomodate the same population.Hence, this notion is ridiculous.

4. If this person rejects Islam solely on the basis of prayer in rows, this would be very strange because this person is willing to accept the Qur'an and Sunnah. If one accepts the Qur'an and Sunnah they accept the Deen and must abide by it.​

In short, Islam is the natural way and for one to reject it is to reject their own nature.

We do pray in a circle if you think about it, the Kabba is the center. If you go to Mecca and pray right next to the Kabba the people will be circled around it and the "circle" goes out from there all around the world.

But besides all that, this has got to be the most rediculous reason for not excepting Islam. The person can not truely believe in the rest of the religion, like they say they do, and then throw it all away over something so trivial. ;D

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I don't understand what's wrong with my translations.

The only thing wrong is that you are attempting to translate a very complex book according to whatever meanings you understand from it. Qur'anic verses have various meanings and deeper interpretations and it is incorrect to feel that you can just slap together a translation of the Qur'an without studying it indepth, as the translators who devoted their lives to the Qur'an did.

You say "as-samâ" is better translated as "heaven". I did so.

Good.

Of course "ad-dunya" isn't "al-ard" because one is the world and the other the earth.
You say "dunya" means world/universe and you translate it with "cosmic". So where's the problem ? Cosmic comes from Greek "kosmos" which means universe. If I slightly change my translation from world to universe then we agree again.

Yes, but again, that's the whole point. We have to maintain the highest accuracy when conveying the meaning and eloquence of the Qur'an.

There is a significan difference when you translate a verse as "sky of the world" versus "cosmic heaven". I hope you can appreciate that difference and understand the importance in analyzing the Qur'an carefully.

47:24 Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them?

I think we aren't talking about the same thing : I'm talking about translation and you're talking about interpretations.

Any translation of the Qur'an is an interpretation!
This is a very important point.

I've put down for you the very words of the Quran. Please accept them and do not try to modify them.

I am slightly stunned by the way you have phrased this request. As a muslim I do not change the Qur'an at all. I can't. But there is a significant difference between changing the Qur'an and asking for the highest accuracy in translation.

Here they are again in Arabic :

67-5) Wa (and) ja`al (made) nâ (We) hâ (her= the lamps) rujûman (missiles) li (for) sh (the) shayâtîni (devils).

So now tell me why my translation is a mistranslation. Which word hasn't been translated correctly?

By translating each word literally, this does not necessarily make the translation of the verse accurate. There are phrases and expressions in various languages that sometimes make no sense when translated literally into another language.

To produce a correct translation, one must understand the verse, understand the various contexts of the verse, understand the tafsir, understand the features of both languages involved in the translation etc.

This is the work of a lifetime, and I'm just asking you to be accurate when translating the word of God.

I really wonder how you can understand the Quran if it's interpretation is a never-ending science.

Every time I read the Qur'an, I see new information. We can interpret the Qur'an in the light of any aspect of life. We will never understand every single meaning of a verse, Take for example Suratul Faitha. Books upon books have been authored just on these seven verses. They describe in detail hundreds of implications of these beautiful words. They question and ponder and go into so much depth- yet still books can be written on this subject. Still we have not even come close to exhausting the meaning of these verses.

When you begin to understand this, then you will realize what the Qur'an really is.

Let's just look at one verse:

I have seen entire books written just on understanding the meaning of Rabb. Understanding the relationship between the Rabb and His creation.
All of that is just analyzing one word of this verse. When we start speaking of the verse itself, we start understanding that glorification of Allah swt is the sublime reality of the universe. It is the start of life, and the end of life. Understanding the implications when you say Alhamulilah. This phrase itself moves the universe in worship.

You can't even begin to understand how complex this subject is. I really recommend that you try to understand Islam and read various books of tafsir rather than trying to put together your own homemade, third class understanding of this religion.

I am not trying to be insulting. I just can't seem to convey to you the understanding of what you are dealing with. You are trying to show me the beautiful world I live in, by looking at the mountains, forests, animals, water, atmoshpere- all the life- and then slapping a paintbrush on a canvass in two seconds, showing me your painting, pointing to it and saying, "This is the world you live in."

But that sloppy painting can't even do an atom's weight of justice to the life I see on this planet.

And the Qur'an is the spoken word of the Source of All Life.

That reminds me of the Catholics that were forbidden for centuries to read the Bible by themselves. They had to hear from it through priests.

Well that's not the case of the Qur'an. You can read it, but you should at least have some appreciation for what you are reading.

Look at the life of this world. I'm not stopping you, but don't judge the life of this world based on your sloppy painting.

The assimilation of Dhu l-Qarnayn with Alexander has nothing to do with Yusuf Ali. This story has been picked up (again, I'm sorry) from Christian legends concerning Alexander the Great.

And it has nothing to do with the Qur'an. The Qur'an says Dhul Qarnain not Alexander the Great. it is a misconception that Dhul Qarnain is the same as Alexander the Great.

2-228) I'm ready to admit your interpretation about the rights of the wives as I know that every translator has interpreted it like you. I can read several languages and I've never counted all the different translations of the Quran I could refer to. I've even started a translation from Arabic to Turkish but I stopped it because the two languages have a too different structure.

I think the most foolish thing anyone could do, would be to assume that they have more authority on understanding a scripture than the voluminous in-depth analysis carried out by thousands of scholars, each devoting their life to understand the book.

I see that you mentioned dear old Doctor Bucaille. If the Prophet was illiterate he was neither deaf nor mute to listen to and to discuss with Jews or Christians. "Ummiyy" means also "who hasn't received a revelation" and doesn't imply necessarily that one cannot write. Besides as a business-man and a stateman he could dictate anytime to his secretaries. The scientific truths in the Quran were nothing new. You just had to ask the proper persons to find out about the science of the time and then have it written down in the Quran. Even the errors were passed along.

Two misconceptions in one paragraph.

Let's just deal with embryology for now.
Refer to this article:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/PlagiarismGreek/

The ridiculous notion of religious borrowing should be dead by now. It is ignorant of so many details and is truly very imaginative.

Read the following:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Qurancopiedmyth
http://www.islamonline.net/English/In_Depth/mohamed/1424/misconception/article03.shtml

I am fully prepared to debate you on the subject, if you choose.

 

[yoshiyahu]

I have no reason to believe that my current religion is not adequete, and I am not convinced by Islamic proof-texts.

 

[wabbaJ]

Thank you for your most thoughtful response

 

[wabbaJ]

Hi im posting more stuff

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I have no reason to believe that my current religion is not adequete, and I am not convinced by Islamic proof-texts.

As long as you are keeping an open-mind when learning about Islam, I can accept this reason of yours. For some people its not really a rejection of Islam, as it is an acceptance of their own religion.

But islam's message to Jews is that this is not a different religion. This is what was taught by Prophet Moses and the Prophets of the Children of Israel. It is the continuation of your religion in its purest form.

Al-Baqarah
130. And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world: And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous.

131. Behold! When his Lord said to him, "Submit (i.e. be a Muslim)!" He said, "I have submitted myself (as a Muslim) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe."

132. And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

133. Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah. To Him we bow (in Islam)."

134. That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case!

135. They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."

136. Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

137. So if they believe as ye believe, they are indeed on the right path; but if they turn back, it is they who are in schism; but Allah will suffice thee as against them, and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

138. (Our religion is) the Sibghah of Allah. And which sibghah is better than that of Allah? And it is He Whom we worship.

Allah speaks the truth.

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

This is what was taught by Prophet Moses and the Prophets of the Children of Israel. It is the continuation of your religion in its purest form.

If this is what God had spoken to us on Mount Sinai, we would have already been practicing it. Even Islam does not claim what we can: That HaShem brought us out of Egypt, and He Himself spoke to all of us at Mt. Sinai, speaking to us directly His commandments.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

If this is what God had spoken to us on Mount Sinai, we would have already been practicing it.

I agree that at many times it was being practiced. But later on it was not.

Even Islam does not claim what we can: That HaShem brought us out of Egypt, and He Himself spoke to all of us at Mt. Sinai, speaking to us directly His commandments.

The Qur'an does speak of these events, if that's what you are asking about. Or are you pointing to a favour on you by God that you ask for a similar favour on Muslims?

Just as your people fled the persecution of Pharoah, so did the Muslims leave the persecution of the Makkans. But while the Children of Israel spent forty years wandering iin the desert, the Muslims returned to makkah and triumphed over it, and in the same time of forty years had become the largest empire in the land. Victory comes to those who do good, regardless of their ethnicity.

And Prophet Moses spoke to God on earth, and Prophet Muhammad spoke to God in heaven.

But in the end, Prophet Moses was a Muslim as well. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh told Umar ibn Al-Khattab that if Prophet Moses had been living at their time, he also would have followed Islam.

God sends Prophets to guide human beings to the right path. It was naturally intended for the Jews to follow the final messenger who would be sent to them - Prophet Muhammad saws.

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

And Prophet Moses spoke to God on earth, and Prophet Muhammad spoke to God in heaven.

Moses spoke to God on both heaven and earth.

God sends Prophets to guide human beings to the right path. It was naturally intended for the Jews to follow the final messenger who would be sent to them - Prophet Muhammad saws.

I'm afraid you are missing the point. The fact is that we did not need Moses as an intermediary to speak to HaShem for us, but HaShem chose him to be our leader and to guide us, and that none could be greater than him. More importantly, HaShem himself came to us and spoke so that even those who were deaf could hear his voice and even those who were blind could see his back, and he gave us our commandments and told us never to deviate from them, nor to change them in any way, be it to add to or subtract from them.

It is such a strong fact that no supersessionist religion that arose long after this event can claim otherwise. No other religion claims otherwise. In all other religions, their ways are the revelation of a single man or a group of men, where ours are directly from the mouth of HaShem to all his chosen at once, and not through a messenger alone. That is why Jews do not accept any other religion, and it is why we remain until moshiach come and beyond.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

May I see the passages you are referring to? That Moses spoke to God in heaven and that the Children of Israel as a whole were recipients of revelation, is new to me.

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

That Moses Ascended to Heaven is an oral law factoid (when he ascends into the cloud of HaShem), but that HaShem spoke to all of Israel is in the Torah:

Exodus 19:

9 And the Lord said to Moses, "Behold, I am coming to you in the thickness of the cloud, in order that the people hear when I speak to you, and they will also believe in you forever." And Moses relayed the words of the people to the Lord.
...
16. It came to pass on the third day when it was morning, that there were thunder claps and lightning flashes, and a thick cloud was upon the mountain, and a very powerful blast of a shofar, and the entire nation that was in the camp shuddered.

17. Moses brought the people out toward God from the camp, and they stood at the bottom of the mountain.

18. And the entire Mount Sinai smoked because the Lord had descended upon it in fire, and its smoke ascended like the smoke of the kiln, and the entire mountain quaked violently.

19. The sound of the shofar grew increasingly stronger; Moses would speak and God would answer him with a voice.

20. The Lord descended upon Mount Sinai, to the peak of the mountain, and the Lord summoned Moses to the peak of the mountain, and Moses ascended.
...
Exodus 20:

1. God spoke all these words, to respond:
- God spoke Heb. אֱלֹהִים. [The word] אֱֱלֹהִים always means “a judge.” [This Divine Name is used here] because there are some sections in the Torah [that contain commandments] that if a person performs them, he receives a reward, but if not, he does not receive any punishment for them. I might think that so it is with the Ten Commandments. Therefore, Scripture says: “God (אֱלֹהִים) spoke,” [signifying God’s role as] a Judge, [Whose function is] to mete out punishment [when the Ten Commandments are not obeyed]. [from Mechilta]
all these words [This] teaches [us] that the Holy One, blessed be He, said the Ten Commandments in one utterance, something that is impossible for a human being to say [in a similar way]. If so, why does the Torah say again, “I am [the Lord, your God (verse 2)]” and “You shall have no…” (verse 3)? Because He later explained each statement [of the Ten Commandments] individually. — [from Mechilta]
to respond Heb. לֵאמֹר, lit., to say. [This] teaches [us] that they responded to the positive [commandments], “Yes,” and to the negative [commandments], “No.” -[from Mechilta]
...Ten commandments...
15. And all the people saw the voices and the torches, the sound of the shofar, and the smoking mountain, and the people saw and trembled; so they stood from afar.

And all the people saw [This] teaches [us] that there was not one blind person among them. From where do we know that [there was] no mute person among them? The Torah states: “And all the people replied” (Exod. 19:8). From where do we know that there was no deaf person among them? The Torah states: “We will do and hear” (Exod. 24:7). [from Mechilta]

16. They said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear, but let God not speak with us lest we die."

17. But Moses said to the people, "Fear not, for God has come in order to exalt you, and in order that His awe shall be upon your faces, so that you shall not sin."

18. The people remained far off, but Moses drew near to the opaque darkness, where God was.

19. The Lord said to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, +You have seen that from the heavens I have spoken with you.

from the heavens I have spoken But another verse states: “The Lord descended upon Mount Sinai” (Exod. 19:20). The third verse comes and harmonizes them: “From the heavens He let you hear His voice in order to discipline you, and on earth He showed you His great fire” (Deut. 4:36). His glory was in heaven, His fire and His power were on the earth. Alternatively, He bent down the [lower] heavens and the highest heavens and spread them out upon the mountain. So [Scripture] says: “And He bent the heavens, and He came down” (Ps. 18:10). [from Mechilta]

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Why do you find it hard to believe the Christian view that God was amongst men and in human form, when the torah says a similar thing?

And some questions have to be asked about the event.
How many people did God speak to? Is this that different from speaking to a single person?
And why would this have any affect on the validity of Islam?

And if this event is interpreted in the way I think it is, I would hae to reject it just as I reject God becoming a human or libving amongst them.

42:51 It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.

52. And thus have We, by Our Command, sent inspiration to thee: thou knewest not (before) what was Revelation, and what was Faith; but We have made the (Qur'an) a Light, wherewith We guide such of Our servants as We will; and verily thou dost guide (men) to the Straight Way,-

53. The Way of Allah, to Whom belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Behold (how) all affairs tend towards Allah.

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

Why do you find it hard to believe the Christian view that God was amongst men and in human form, when the torah says a similar thing?

HaShem was not in the form of a Man at all. Was he in the form of a bush when he spoke to Moses from there? The answer is exactly No. He simply denoted a place from which His voice would be heard and His "back" could be seen.

How many people did God speak to? Is this that different from speaking to a single person?

He spoke to all of Israel, it is much different than a single person claiming a revelation. Please read the following Al-'Adl

THE BELIEVABILITY GAME

Gauge the level of credibility of the following scenarios.

Some claims are inherently unverifiable. For example, would you believe me if I told you the following:

Scenario #1:

"Last week after dinner, I went for a walk through the forest near my house. Suddenly everything was awash in a tremendous light and God appeared to me, designating me as His prophet. He told me to announce this revelation to you at this time."

​

Believable?

In theory this could have happened. It doesn't seem likely, but you don't know I'm lying. Would you choose to believe me?

Without any substantiating evidence, why choose to believe me? A foolish move, indeed.

Scenario #2:

Would you believe me if I told you the following:

"Last night while I was eating dinner with my family, the room started to suddenly shake and God's booming voice was heard by all of us. He designated me as His prophet and commanded me to announce this revelation."

​

Believable?

This could have happened too. If I were to bring in my family to confirm the story it would be more believable than the first story. You certainly don't know if I'm lying.

Would you believe me? Would you fork over $10,000 dollars if I told you God commanded you to do so?

No way. There is still not enough evidence to trust my claim -- because it is very possible that my family is lying.

Scenario #3:

There is another type of claim that you can know is false. For example, would you believe me if I told you this:

"Do you remember what happened 10 minutes ago just as you began reading this article? Remember how the room started shaking, then the ceiling opened up to the skies, and you and I together heard God's booming voice come down and say 'Thou shalt hearken to the voice of Nechemia Coopersmith for he is my prophet!' And then the room went back to normal and you continued reading. You remember that, don't you?"

​

Is this believable?

This kind of claim is completely different. The two previous scenarios at least had the possibility of being true. You chose not to accept them because they were unverifiable. However this third scenario is impossible to believe. I'm claiming something happened to you that you know did not happen. Since you didn't experience it, you know I'm lying. I cannot convince you of something that you yourself know didn't happen.

This first type of claim -- that something happened to someone else -- is unverifiable, because you do not know for certain that the claim is a lie. Therefore it is possible for a person to decide to accept the claim as true if he really wanted to and take that leap of faith.

However, the other type of claim -- that something happened to you -- you know if it is inherently false. People do not accept patently false assertions, especially those that carry significant consequences.

SINAI: AN IMPOSSIBLE HOAX

So far we have seen two types of claims -- one is unverifiable and the other is inherently false.

Could the revelation at Sinai have been a brilliant hoax, duping millions of people into believing that God spoke to them?

Let's imagine the scene. Moses comes down the mountain and claims, "We all today heard God speak, all of you heard the God's voice from the fire..."

Assuming Moses is making it up, how would the people respond to his story?

"Moses! What are you talking about?! Boy, you sure had us going there for awhile. We may have even believed you if you came down and claimed that God appeared to you personally. But now you blew it! Now we know you're lying because you're claiming an event happened to us that we know didn't happen! We did not hear God speak to us from any fire!"

​

If the revelation at Sinai did not occur, then Moses is claiming an event everyone immediately knows is an outright lie, since they know that they never heard God speak. It is preposterous to think Moses can get away with a claim that everyone knows is lie.

REVELATION CLAIMED LATER IN HISTORY

Perhaps a hoax such as this could have been attempted at a later period in history. Perhaps the claim of national revelation did not originate at Sinai, but began, for example, 1,000 years after the event was said to have occurred. Perhaps the leader Ezra, for example, appears on the scene, introducing a book purported to be written by God and given to a people who stood at Sinai a long time ago.

Could someone get away with this kind of hoax? For example, would you believe the following:

"I want to let you in on a very little-known, but true fact. In 1794 over 200 years ago, from May until August, the entire continent of North America mysteriously sank under the sea. For those four months, the whole continent was submerged and somehow all animal, plant and human life managed to adapt to these bizarre conditions. Then, on August 31, the entire continent suddenly floated up to the surface and life resumed to normal."

​

Is there a possibility that I'm telling the truth? Do you know for a fact that it is a lie? After all, it happened so long ago, how do you know it didn't happen? Maybe you learned about in school and just forgot about it.

You know North America did not sink hundreds of years ago for one simple reason: If it did, you would have heard about it. An event so unique and amazing, witnessed by multitudes of people would have been known, discussed, and passed down, becoming a part of history. The fact that no one has heard of it up until now means you know the story is not true, making it impossible to accept.

An event of great significance with a large number of eyewitnesses cannot be perpetuated as a hoax. If it did not happen, everyone would realize it is false since no one ever heard about it before. Thus, if such an event was indeed accepted as part of history, the only way to understand its acceptance is that the event actually happened.

INTRODUCED LATER?

Let's assume for the moment that the revelation at Mount Sinai is really a hoax; God did not write the Torah. How did the revelation at Sinai become accepted for thousands of years as part of our nation's history?

Imagine someone trying to pull off such a hoax. An Ezra figure shows up one day holding a scroll.

"Hey Ezra – what are you holding there?"
"This is the Torah."
"The Torah? What's that?"
"It's an amazing book filled with laws, history and stories. Here, take a look at it."
Very nice, Ezra. Where did you get this?"
"Open up the book and see what it says. This book was given thousands of years ago to your ancestors. Three million of them stood at Mount Sinai and heard God speak! God appeared to everyone, giving His law and instruction."

​

How would you respond to such a claim?

The people give Ezra a quizzical look and say,

"Wait a second, Ezra. Something is a little fishy here. Why haven't we ever heard of this before? You're describing one of the most momentous events that could ever happen, claiming that it happened to our ancestors – and we never heard about it?"

"Sure. It was along time ago. Of course you never heard about it."

"C'mon Ezra! It's impossible that our grandparents or great-grandparents would not have passed down the most significant event in our nation's history to some of the people! How could it be that no one has heard about this up until now?! You're claiming all my ancestors, the entire nation, 3 million people heard God speak and received a set of instructions called the Torah, and none of us have heard about it?! You must be lying."

​

If one cannot pull off a hoax with regard to a continent sinking, so too one cannot pull off a hoax to convince an entire people that their ancestors experienced the most unique event in all of human history.

Everyone would know it's a lie.

For thousands of years, Sinai was accepted as central to Jewish history. How else can this be explained?

Given that people will not fall for a hoax they know is a lie, how could national revelation have been not only accepted -- but faithfully followed with great sacrifice by the vast majority of Jews?

The only way a people would accept such a claim is if it really happened. If Sinai did not happen, everyone would know it's a lie and it would never have been accepted. The only way one can ever claim a nation experienced revelation and have it accepted is if it is true.


SINAI: THE ONLY CLAIM OF NATIONAL REVELATION

Throughout history, tens of thousands of religions have been started by individuals, attempting to convince people that God spoke to him or her. All religions that base themselves on some type of revelation share essentially the same beginning: a holy person goes into solitude, comes back to his people, and announces that he has experienced a personal revelation where God appointed him to be His prophet.

Would you believe someone who claims to have received a personal communication from God appointing him or her as God's new prophet?

Maybe He did. Then again, maybe He didn't. One can never know. The claim is inherently unverifiable.

Personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a religion since one can never know if it is indeed true. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs miracles, there is still no verification that he is a genuine prophet. Miracles do not prove anything. All they show -- assuming they are genuine -- is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his claim of prophecy.

Maimonides writes:

Israel did not believe in Moses, our teacher, on account of the miracles he performed. For when one's faith is based on miracles, doubt remains in the mind that these miracles may have been done through the occult and witchcraft...

​

What then were the grounds of believing him? The revelation on Sinai which we saw with our own eyes, and heard with our own ears, not having to depend on the testimony of others... (Mishna Torah - Foundations of Torah 8:1)

​

A BOLD PREDICTION

There are 15,000 known religions in all of recorded history. Given this inherent weakness, why do all of them base their claim on personal revelation? If someone wanted their religion to be accepted, why wouldn't they present the strongest, most believable claim possible -- i.e. national revelation! It's far more credible. No one has to take a leap of faith and blindly trust just one person's word. It is qualitatively better to claim that God came to everyone, telling the entire group that so-and-so is His prophet.

Why would God establish His entire relationship with a nation through one man, without any possibility of verification, and still expect this nation to obediently follow an entire system of instructions, based only on blind faith?

Yet, Judaism is the only religion in the annals of history that makes the best of all claims -- that everyone heard God speak. No other religion claims the experience of national revelation. Why?

Furthermore, the author of the Torah predicts that there will never be another claim of national revelation throughout history!

'You might inquire about times long past, from the day that God created man on earth, and from one end of heaven to the other: Has there ever been anything like this great thing or has anything like it been heard? Has a people ever heard the voice of God speaking from the midst of the fires as you have heard and survived?' (Deut. 4:32-33)

​

Let's consider the option that God did not write the Torah, and its author successfully convinced a group of people to accept a false claim of national revelation. In this book, the author writes a prediction that over the course of history no one will ever make a similar claim. That means if such a claim is ever made at some future time, the prediction will end up being false and his religion is finished.

How could the author include in the book he is passing off as a hoax the prediction that no other person will ever attempt to perpetuate the same hoax when he just made that exact claim? If he could do it, he can be certain that others will too, especially since it is the best possible claim to make. If you are making up a religion, you do not write something you know you cannot predict and whose outcome you would think is guaranteed to be exactly the opposite.

However, aside from the Jewish claim of Mount Sinai, it is a fact that no other nation has ever claimed such a similar national revelation.

Let's summarize two primary questions:

1. Out of 15,000 known religions in recorded history, why is Judaism the only one that claims national revelation, the best of all claims? Why do all other religions base themselves on the inherently weak assertion of personal revelation?

2. If Judaism's claim is indeed an example of a successful hoax that falsely asserts national revelation, the author just got away with passing off the best possible claim, and others will certainly follow suit. Why then would he predict that no one else will ever make a similar claim, a prediction he knows he cannot foresee, and whose outcome is likely to be the exact opposite?

There is one simple answer to both questions. A national revelation -- as opposed to personal revelation -- is the one lie you cannot get away with. It is one event you cannot fabricate. The only way to make this claim is if it actually happened.

If the claim is true, the people will believe it because they are agreeing to something they already know. Either they personally witnessed it, or their ancestors collectively passed down the account as part of their nation's accepted history.

If the claim is false, it's like trying to convince you that God spoke to you or your parents and somehow you never heard of it. No one would ever accept such a claim.

Therefore no other religion has ever made the best of all claims, because it is the one claim that can only be made if it is true. One cannot pass national revelation off as a hoax.

When inventing a religion, the originator must resort to personal revelation, despite its inherent weakness, since it is a claim that is unverifiable. The originator can hope to find adherents willing to take a leap of faith and accept his or her religion. After all, no one can ever know it is a lie. [Of course, no one can know if it's true either.] This simply cannot work with national revelation since it's the one claim that everyone will know is a lie.

Only Judaism can claim national revelation since the Jewish people is the only nation in the history of mankind who ever experienced it.

Furthermore, it is interesting to note that the other major religions of the world both accept the Jewish revelation at Sinai, including the Five Books of Moses in their Bible, and hold the Sinai revelation as a key component of their religion.

When starting their own religions, why did they build upon the Jewish claim? Why didn't they just deny the revelation ever happened?

The answer is that they knew that if national revelation can never be fabricated; so too, its validity can therefore never be denied.

Now it is understandable how the Author of the Torah can confidently predict that there will never be another claim of national revelation in history.

Because only God knew it would happen only once, as it did -- at Sinai over 3,000 years ago.

And why would this have any affect on the validity of Islam?

Muhammed was a messenger who the Quran says received revelations from Allah. He alone had these, no one else can verify them.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Thanks for your post, SpaceFalcon.

HaShem was not in the form of a Man at all. Was he in the form of a bush when he spoke to Moses from there? The answer is exactly No. He simply denoted a place from which His voice would be heard and His "back" could be seen.

I'm not sure I understand the last statement. But anyway, I can understand your saying of denoting a place for the voice.

He spoke to all of Israel, it is much different than a single person claiming a revelation. Please read the following Al-Haq

I read the article and it was interesting. But the article makes some assumptions that I will point out later.

Before i do, I should show you the Qur'an's response to this:
Suratul Qasas (28)
43. We did reveal to Moses the Book after We had destroyed the earlier generations, (to give) Insight to men, and guidance and Mercy, that they might receive admonition.

44. Thou wast not on the Western side when We decreed the Commission to Moses, nor wast thou a witness (of those events).

45. But We raised up (new) generations, and long were the ages that passed over them; but thou wast not a dweller among the people of Madyan, rehearsing Our Signs to them; but it is We Who send apostles (with inspiration).

46. Nor wast thou at the side of (the Mountain of) Tur when we called (to Moses). Yet (art thou sent) as Mercy from thy Lord, to give warning to a people to whom no warner had come before thee: in order that they may receive admonition.

47. If (We had) not (sent thee to the Quraish),- in case a calamity should seize them for (the deeds) that their hands have sent forth, they might say: "Our Lord! why didst Thou not sent us an apostle? We should then have followed Thy Signs and been amongst those who believe!"

48. But (now), when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not (Signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Do they not then reject (the Signs) which were formerly sent to Moses? They say: "Two kinds of sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say: "For us, we reject all (such things)!"

49. Say: "Then bring ye a Book from Allah, which is a better guide than either of them, that I may follow it! (do), if ye are truthful!"

50. But if they hearken not to thee, know that they only follow their own lusts: and who is more astray than one who follow his own lusts, devoid of guidance from Allah. for Allah guides not people given to wrong-doing.

51. Now have We caused the Word to reach them themselves, in order that they may receive admonition.

52. Those to whom We sent the Book before this,- they do believe in this (revelation):

53. And when it is recited to them, they say: "We believe therein, for it is the Truth from our Lord: indeed we have been Muslims (bowing to Allah.s Will) from before this.

54. Twice will they be given their reward, for that they have persevered, that they avert Evil with Good, and that they spend (in charity) out of what We have given them.

55. And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant."

56. It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one, whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance.

There are a few points to note here:
1. The belief in Prophet Moses as a prophet was amongst the Children of Israel before this event at Mount Sinai
2. There were no witnesses to Prophet Moses claiming Prophethood either! Not even his family!
28:29. Now when Moses had fulfilled the term, and was travelling with his family, he perceived a fire in the direction of Mount Tur. He said to his family: "Tarry ye; I perceive a fire; I hope to bring you from there some information, or a burning firebrand, that ye may warm yourselves."

28:30. But when he came to the (fire), a voice was heard from the right bank of the valley, from a tree in hallowed ground: "O Moses! Verily I am Allah, the Lord of the Worlds....
Thus, Prophet Moses was in the same position as Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Both first recieved revelation on their own, at a mountain as a sheperd.
-the real reason the Children of Israel believed in Prophet Moses, and the Sahaba in Prophet Muhammad was

a) because of the message
and b) because of the miracles​

Your claim that no one witnessed Prophet Muhamad's prophethood is not correct at all. He performed many signs in public that were witnessed by thousands.

http://islaam.com/Article.aspx?id=596
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=106

And lastly, the Qur'an directly answers this claim (usually from atheists) for a manifest sign from God eg. God speaking to the population, some sign from heaven, etc.

Please allow me to quote Ash-Shua'raa in its entirety.

1. Ta. Sin. Mim.

2. These are verses of the Book that makes (things) clear.

3. It may be thou frettest thy soul with grief, that they do not become Believers.

4. If (such) were Our Will, We could send down to them from the sky a Sign, to which they would bend their necks in humility.

5. But there comes not to them a newly-revealed Message from ((Allah)) Most Gracious, but they turn away therefrom.

6. They have indeed rejected (the Message): so they will know soon (enough) the truth of what they mocked at!

7. Do they not look at the earth,- how many noble things of all kinds We have produced therein?

8. Verily, in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

9. And verily, thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.​

10. Behold, thy Lord called Moses: "Go to the people of iniquity,-

11. "The people of the Pharaoh: will they not fear Allah."

12. He said: "O my Lord! I do fear that they will charge me with falsehood:

13. "My breast will be straitened. And my speech may not go (smoothly): so send unto Aaron.

14. "And (further), they have a charge of crime against me; and I fear they may slay me."

15. Allah said: "By no means! proceed then, both of you, with Our Signs; We are with you, and will listen (to your call).

16. "So go forth, both of you, to Pharaoh, and say: 'We have been sent by the Lord and Cherisher of the worlds;

17. "'Send thou with us the Children of Israel.'"

18. (Pharaoh) said: "Did we not cherish thee as a child among us, and didst thou not stay in our midst many years of thy life?

19. "And thou didst a deed of thine which (thou knowest) thou didst, and thou art an ungrateful (wretch)!"

20. Moses said: "I did it then, when I was in error.

21. "So I fled from you (all) when I feared you; but my Lord has (since) invested me with judgment (and wisdom) and appointed me as one of the apostles.

22. "And this is the favour with which thou dost reproach me,- that thou hast enslaved the Children of Israel!"

23. Pharaoh said: "And what is the 'Lord and Cherisher of the worlds'?"

24. (Moses) said: "The Lord and Cherisher of the heavens and the earth, and all between,- if ye want to be quite sure."

25. (Pharaoh) said to those around: "Did ye not listen (to what he says)?"

26. (Moses) said: "Your Lord and the Lord of your fathers from the beginning!"

27. (Pharaoh) said: "Truly your apostle who has been sent to you is a veritable madman!"

28. (Moses) said: "Lord of the East and the West, and all between! if ye only had sense!"

29. (Pharaoh) said: "If thou dost put forward any god other than me, I will certainly put thee in prison!"

30. (Moses) said: "Even if I showed you something clear (and) convincing?"

31. (Pharaoh) said: "Show it then, if thou tellest the truth!"

32. So (Moses) threw his rod, and behold, it was a serpent, plain (for all to see)!

33. And he drew out his hand, and behold, it was white to all beholders!

34. (Pharaoh) said to the Chiefs around him: "This is indeed a sorcerer well- versed:

35. "His plan is to get you out of your land by his sorcery; then what is it ye counsel?"

36. They said: "Keep him and his brother in suspense (for a while), and dispatch to the Cities heralds to collect-

37. "And bring up to thee all (our) sorcerers well-versed."

38. So the sorcerers were got together for the appointment of a day well-known,

39. And the people were told: "Are ye (now) assembled?-

40. "That we may follow the sorcerers (in religion) if they win?"

41. So when the sorcerers arrived, they said to Pharaoh: "Of course - shall we have a (suitable) reward if we win?

42. He said: "Yea, (and more),- for ye shall in that case be (raised to posts) nearest (to my person)."

43. Moses said to them: "Throw ye - that which ye are about to throw!"

44. So they threw their ropes and their rods, and said: "By the might of Pharaoh, it is we who will certainly win!"

45. Then Moses threw his rod, when, behold, it straightway swallows up all the falsehoods which they fake!

46. Then did the sorcerers fall down, prostrate in adoration,

47. Saying: "We believe in the Lord of the Worlds,

48. "The Lord of Moses and Aaron."

49. Said (Pharaoh): "Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? surely he is your leader, who has taught you sorcery! but soon shall ye know!

50. "Be sure I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will cause you all to die on the cross!"

51. They said: "No matter! for us, we shall but return to our Lord!

52. "Only, our desire is that our Lord will forgive us our faults, that we may become foremost among the believers!"

53. By inspiration we told Moses: "Travel by night with my servants; for surely ye shall be pursued."

54. Then Pharaoh sent heralds to (all) the Cities,

55. (Saying): "These (Israelites) are but a small band,

56. "And they are raging furiously against us;

57. "But we are a multitude amply fore-warned."

58. So We expelled them from gardens, springs,

59. Treasures, and every kind of honourable position;

60. Thus it was, but We made the Children of Israel inheritors of such things.

61. So they pursued them at sunrise.

62. And when the two bodies saw each other, the people of Moses said: "We are sure to be overtaken."

63. (Moses) said: "By no means! my Lord is with me! Soon will He guide me!"

64. Then We told Moses by inspiration: "Strike the sea with thy rod." So it divided, and each separate part became like the huge, firm mass of a mountain.

65. And We made the other party approach thither.

66. We delivered Moses and all who were with him;

67. But We drowned the others.

68. Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

69. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.​

70. And rehearse to them (something of) Abraham's story.

71. Behold, he said to his father and his people: "What worship ye?"

72. They said: "We worship idols, and we remain constantly in attendance on them."

73. He said: "Do they listen to you when ye call (on them), or do you good or harm?"

74. They said: "Nay, but we found our fathers doing thus (what we do)."

75. He said: "Do ye then see whom ye have been worshipping,-

76. "Ye and your fathers before you?-

77. "For they are enemies to me; not so the Lord and Cherisher of the Worlds;

78. "Who created me, and it is He Who guides me;

79. "Who gives me food and drink,

80. "And when I am ill, it is He Who cures me;

81. "Who will cause me to die, and then to life (again);

82. "And who, I hope, will forgive me my faults on the day of Judgment.

83. "O my Lord! bestow wisdom on me, and join me with the righteous;

84. "Grant me honourable mention on the tongue of truth among the latest (generations);

85. "Make me one of the inheritors of the Garden of Bliss;

86. "Forgive my father, for that he is among those astray;

87. "And let me not be in disgrace on the Day when (men) will be raised up;-

88. "The Day whereon neither wealth nor sons will avail,

89. "But only he (will prosper) that brings to Allah a sound heart;

90. "To the righteous, the Garden will be brought near,

91. "And to those straying in Evil, the Fire will be placed in full view;

92. "And it shall be said to them: 'Where are the (gods) ye worshipped-

93. "'Besides Allah. Can they help you or help themselves?'

94. "Then they will be thrown headlong into the (Fire),- they and those straying in Evil,

95. "And the whole hosts of Iblis together.

96. "They will say there in their mutual bickerings:

97. "'By Allah, we were truly in an error manifest,

98. "'When we held you as equals with the Lord of the Worlds;

99. "'And our seducers were only those who were steeped in guilt.

100. "'Now, then, we have none to intercede (for us),

101. "'Nor a single friend to feel (for us).

102. "'Now if we only had a chance of return we shall truly be of those who believe!'"

103. Verily in this is a Sign but most of them do not believe.

104. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.​

105. The people of Noah rejected the apostles.

106. Behold, their brother Noah said to them: "Will ye not fear ((Allah))?

107. "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust:

108. "So fear Allah, and obey me.

109. "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds:

110. "So fear Allah, and obey me."

111. They said: "Shall we believe in thee when it is the meanest that follow thee?"

112. He said: "And what do I know as to what they do?

113. "Their account is only with my Lord, if ye could (but) understand.

114. "I am not one to drive away those who believe.

115. "I am sent only to warn plainly in public."

116. They said: "If thou desist not, O Noah! thou shalt be stoned (to death)."

117. He said: "O my Lord! truly my people have rejected me.

118. "Judge Thou, then, between me and them openly, and deliver me and those of the Believers who are with me."

119. So We delivered him and those with him, in the Ark filled (with all creatures).

120. Thereafter We drowned those who remained behind.

121. Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

122. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.​

123. The 'Ad (people) rejected the apostles.

124. Behold, their brother Hud said to them: "Will ye not fear ((Allah))?

125. "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust:

126. "So fear Allah and obey me.

127. "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds.

128. "Do ye build a landmark on every high place to amuse yourselves?

129. "And do ye get for yourselves fine buildings in the hope of living therein (for ever)?

130. "And when ye exert your strong hand, do ye do it like men of absolute power?

131. "Now fear Allah, and obey me.

132. "Yea, fear Him Who has bestowed on you freely all that ye know.

133. "Freely has He bestowed on you cattle and sons,-

134. "And Gardens and Springs.

135. "Truly I fear for you the Penalty of a Great Day."

136. They said: "It is the same to us whether thou admonish us or be not among (our) admonishers!

137. "This is no other than a customary device of the ancients,

138. "And we are not the ones to receive Pains and Penalties!"

139. So they rejected him, and We destroyed them.

Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

140. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.​

141. The Thamud (people) rejected the apostles.

142. Behold, their brother Salih said to them: "Will you not fear ((Allah))?

143. "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust.

144. "So fear Allah, and obey me.

145. "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds.

146. "Will ye be left secure, in (the enjoyment of) all that ye have here?-

147. "Gardens and Springs,

148. "And corn-fields and date-palms with spathes near breaking (with the weight of fruit)?

149. "And ye carve houses out of (rocky) mountains with great skill.

150. "But fear Allah and obey me;

151. "And follow not the bidding of those who are extravagant,-

152. "Who make mischief in the land, and mend not (their ways)."

153. They said: "Thou art only one of those bewitched!

154. "Thou art no more than a mortal like us: then bring us a Sign, if thou tellest the truth!"

155. He said: "Here is a she-camel: she has a right of watering, and ye have a right of watering, (severally) on a day appointed.

156. "Touch her not with harm, lest the Penalty of a Great Day seize you."

157. But they ham-strung her: then did they become full of regrets.

158. But the Penalty seized them.

Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

159. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.​

160. The people of Lut rejected the apostles.

161. Behold, their brother Lut said to them: "Will ye not fear ((Allah))?

162. "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust.

163. "So fear Allah and obey me.

164. "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the lord of the Worlds.

165. "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males,

166. "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"

167. They said: "If thou desist not, O Lut! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!"

168. He said: "I do detest your doings."

169. "O my Lord! deliver me and my family from such things as they do!"

170. So We delivered him and his family,- all

171. Except an old woman who lingered behind.

172. But the rest We destroyed utterly.

173. We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)!

174. Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

175. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might Most Merciful.​

176. The Companions of the Wood rejected the apostles.

177. Behold, Shu'aib said to them: "Will ye not fear ((Allah))?

178. "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust.

179. "So fear Allah and obey me.

180. "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds.

181. "Give just measure, and cause no loss (to others by fraud).

182. "And weigh with scales true and upright.

183. "And withhold not things justly due to men, nor do evil in the land, working mischief.

184. "And fear Him Who created you and (who created) the generations before (you)"

185. They said: "Thou art only one of those bewitched!

186. "Thou art no more than a mortal like us, and indeed we think thou art a liar!

187. "Now cause a piece of the sky to fall on us, if thou art truthful!"

188. He said: "My Lord knows best what ye do."

189. But they rejected him. Then the punishment of a day of overshadowing gloom seized them, and that was the Penalty of a Great Day.

center]190. Verily in that is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

191. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.[/center]

192. Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds:

193. With it came down the spirit of Faith and Truth-

194. To thy heart and mind, that thou mayest admonish.

195. In the perspicuous Arabic tongue.

196. Without doubt it is (announced) in the mystic Books of former peoples.

197. Is it not a Sign to them that the Learned of the Children of Israel knew it (as true)?​

198. Had We revealed it to any of the non-Arabs,

199. And had he recited it to them, they would not have believed in it.

200. Thus have We caused it to enter the hearts of the sinners.

201. They will not believe in it until they see the grievous Penalty;

202. But the (Penalty) will come to them of a sudden, while they perceive it not;

203. Then they will say: "Shall we be respited?"

204. Do they then ask for Our Penalty to be hastened on?

205. Seest thou? If We do let them enjoy (this life) for a few years,

206. Yet there comes to them at length the (Punishment) which they were promised!

207. It will profit them not that they enjoyed (this life)!

208. Never did We destroy a population, but had its warners -

209. By way of reminder; and We never are unjust.

210. No evil ones have brought down this (Revelation):

211. It would neither suit them nor would they be able (to produce it).

212. Indeed they have been removed far from even (a chance of) hearing it.

213. So call not on any other god with Allah, or thou wilt be among those under the Penalty.

214. And admonish thy nearest kinsmen,

215. And lower thy wing to the Believers who follow thee.

216. Then if they disobey thee, say: "I am free (of responsibility) for what ye do!"

217. And put thy trust on the Exalted in Might, the Merciful,-

218. Who seeth thee standing forth (in prayer),

219. And thy movements among those who prostrate themselves,

220. For it is He Who heareth and knoweth all things.

221. Shall I inform you, (O people!), on whom it is that the evil ones descend?

222. They descend on every lying, wicked person,

223. (Into whose ears) they pour hearsay vanities, and most of them are liars.

224. And the Poets,- It is those straying in Evil, who follow them:

225. Seest thou not that they wander distracted in every valley?-

226. And that they say what they practise not?-

227. Except those who believe, work righteousness, engage much in the remembrance of Allah, and defend themselves only after they are unjustly attacked. And soon will the unjust assailants know what vicissitudes their affairs will take!


I know it's a large chapter, but I think it serves my point just like your article served yours. Please read it, and you may find something interesting.

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

There are a few points to note here:
1. The belief in Prophet Moses as a prophet was amongst the Children of Israel before this event at Mount Sinai
2. There were no witnesses to Prophet Moses claiming Prophethood either! Not even his family!

The issue is not that Moses was a prophet, but that the law was given directly from God to the people. It did not pass through a prophet at all.

Thus, Prophet Moses was in the same position as Prophet Muhammad pbuh. Both first recieved revelation on their own, at a mountain as a sheperd.

As I pointed out, the law was not given to Moses alone, but to all. To know that one is a prophet does not require a national revelation, but a national revelation was needed to procure the law.

Your claim that no one witnessed Prophet Muhamad's prophethood is not correct at all. He performed many signs in public that were witnessed by thousands.

Whether Muhammed did anything miraculous isn't really the issue. He couldn't have been a prophet because of two reasons:
1) The time of prophecy had ended with the building of the second temple. Jesus and Muhammed came long after.

2) He rewrote what HaShem Himself had given, and commanded as eternal for the Jews. HaShem told us to listen to every prophet provided that he does not change the Law. Then Muhammed comes to the Jews and tells them that he alone recieved a revelation that HaShem was wrong. Martain Luther tried the same. They both re-rejected the Jews for not accepting their new ideas that contradicted God himself. There is simply no reason to listen to a Man over God.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings SF2K,

The issue is not that Moses was a prophet, but that the law was given directly from God to the people. It did not pass through a prophet at all. As I pointed out, the law was not given to Moses alone, but to all. To know that one is a prophet does not require a national revelation, but a national revelation was needed to procure the law.

That's fine, but the point you were making, and the point specifically made in the article you provided was that of acceptance and belief. namely that the validity of Judaism is much greater than other religions because the claims were witnessed. But as I pointed out, and as you agreed:

To know that one is a prophet does not require a national revelation

Thus, what does the 'national revelation 'add to your point?

He couldn't have been a prophet because of two reasons:
1) The time of prophecy had ended with the building of the second temple. Jesus and Muhammed came long after.

i think you provided the source for this before, but if you could briefly quote it again, that would be useful.

And what features are necessary to end the age of prophecy?

2) He rewrote what HaShem Himself had given, and commanded as eternal for the Jews. HaShem told us to listen to every prophet provided that he does not change the Law.

I'd appreciate the source for this one too please.

Then Muhammed comes to the Jews and tells them that he alone recieved a revelation that HaShem was wrong.

Now you know as well as I do that that claim is not correct. HaShem revealed the Qur'an himself and within it gave very clear instructions to the Jews about what was happening.

They both re-rejected the Jews for not accepting their new ideas that contradicted God himself. There is simply no reason to listen to a Man over God.

And as you know, I am not advocating that. That's a strawman, since Prophet Muhammad was not speaking of himself....

53:3. Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire.

53:4. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him:

I understand that you do not view Prophet Muhammad saws as a Prophet. Therefore, that should be the focus of our discussion.

 

[mansio]

Salâm Ansar ul Adl,

Religious borrowing is a common thing to historians of religions. There are a number of examples of that in the Quran. The bad thing is that sometimes the borrower(s) weren't able to sort out between high grade or low grade theological writings or sayings.
The most sold translation of the Quran in France is that of a lady Denise Masson. Her translation has been agreed by Al-Azhar University in Cairo. Ahmed Deedat uses it in the French translation of his lectures.
Denise Masson (and not only her) notes that the story of Dhul Qarnayn in the Quran doesn't mention Alexander the Great, but that the model of that story does ("The Romance of Alexander" by Pseudo Callisthenes and Jacques of Sarouj).
If an angel appears to you and dictates you a most important message from God for the salvation of humankind, and you have it written in the next minutes on a piece of paper, would you then throw away the paper once you have it printed ?
That's exactly what happened to the Quran. Messages from God, written down sometimes minutes after they had been "sent down", have all been destroyed at the time of Uthman. For what reason could such a sacrilege have been done if it weren't to conceal something ? And that something could be the editorial work behind the text of the Quran.
We have a good example of that with the Mormons. Their prophet Joseph Smith found the Book of Mormon under the directions of a heavenly messenger. That book is to be found in religious bookstores as the Quran is. But where are the plates some people swear they have seen ?
They have been taken back to heaven ! That event didn't happen in the sixth century but about 150 years ago and millions believe in it.

 

[kadafi]

Salâm Ansar ul Adl,

Religious borrowing is a common thing to historians of religions. There are a number of examples of that in the Quran. The bad thing is that sometimes the borrower(s) weren't able to sort out between high grade or low grade theological writings or sayings.
The most sold translation of the Quran in France is that of a lady Denise Masson. Her translation has been agreed by Al-Azhar University in Cairo. Ahmed Deedat uses it in the French translation of his lectures.
Denise Masson (and not only her) notes that the story of Dhul Qarnayn in the Quran doesn't mention Alexander the Great, but that the model of that story does ("The Romance of Alexander" by Pseudo Callisthenes and Jacques of Sarouj).

Greetings Mansio,

Yes, that's correct. The translation of Masson has been widely acclaimed in France. The reason why her translation was approved by the council and recommended was 'cause unlike other (french) translations -- she uses the word God in order to abolish the disseminated misconception that Allah is a moon god.

However, this does not signify that her translation is accurate. In spite of the fact that I haven't read her commentaries regarding the Dhul Qarnayn passages; I do have to note that she is grossly incorrect regardin' her interpretation (and assertion). This assertion shatteres in pieces if one pursues a honest research and compares the assertion vis-a-vis with the evidence acquired.

You can read the article produced by Dr. M S M Saifullah who addresses this allegation at:
The Sources Of The Qur'anic Dhul-Qarnayn

He concluded with the following statement:
It has been claimed by Nöldeke and subsequent scholarship that the Qur'anic story of Dhul-Qarnayn was borrowed from the Christian Legend attributed to Jacob of Serugh. Internal evidence however shows that it was composed after 628 CE. Investigations by Hunnius, Kmoskó and Czeglédy have conclusively shown that the writer had ex eventu (i.e., a prophesy or predication after the event) knowledge of Khazar invasion of Armenia. The text provides no date by which the terminus ad quem (a final limiting point in time) can be fixed. It is not only important to know the dates of composition of the individual works that are used to establish the theories of borrowing, but to also understand the difference between the Qur'an and the Qur'anic commentaries.

If an angel appears to you and dictates you a most important message from God for the salvation of humankind, and you have it written in the next minutes on a piece of paper, would you then throw away the paper once you have it printed ?
That's exactly what happened to the Quran. Messages from God, written down sometimes minutes after they had been "sent down", have all been destroyed at the time of Uthman. For what reason could such a sacrilege have been done if it weren't to conceal something ? And that something could be the editorial work behind the text of the Quran.

This is incorrect my friend.

We have Qu'ranic manuscripts that are dated to first half of the first century of hijara (i.e., before 50 AH / 670 CE) and they all bear a striking resemblance when compared with the Uthman Qurans.
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/

Furthermore, you misunderstood the concept of why Uthman (May Allah be pleased with him burned down the other Qurans)

This is discussed in the article 'Versions of the Qur'an?' located at:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Qiraat/hafs.html

Here is a small excerpt from the article that more or less summarizes the action of Uthman:

The Qur'an continued to be read according to the seven ahruf until midway through Caliph 'Uthman's rule when some confusion arose in the outlying provinces concerning the Qur'an's recitation. Some Arab tribes had began to boast about the superiority of their ahruf and a rivalry began to develop. At the same time, some new Muslims also began mixing the various forms of recitation out of ignorance. Caliph 'Uthman decided to make official copies of the Qur'an according to the dialect of the Quraysh and send them along with the Qur'anic reciters to the major centres of Islam. This decision was approved by Sahaabah and all unofficial copies of the Qur'an were destroyed. Following the distribution of the official copies, all the other ahruf were dropped and the Qur'an began to be read in only one harf. Thus, the Qur'an which is available through out the world today is written and recited only according to the harf of Quraysh.

Now a few words on Qira'at:

A Qira'at is for the most part a method of pronunciation used in the recitations of the Qur'an. These methods are different from the seven forms or modes (ahruf) in which the Qur'an was revealed. The seven modes were reduced to one, that of the Quraysh, during the era of Caliph 'Uthman, and all of the methods of recitation are based on this mode. The various methods have all been traced back to the Prophet(P) through a number of Sahaabah who were most noted for their Qur'anic recitations. That is, these Sahaabah recited the Qur'an to the Prophet(P) or in his presence and received his approval. Among them were the following: Ubayy Ibn K'ab, 'Alee Ibn Abi Taalib, Zayd Ibn Thaabit, 'Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud, Abu ad-Dardaa and Abu Musaa al-Ash'aree. Many of the other Sahaabah learned from these masters. For example, Ibn 'Abbaas, the master commentator of the Qur'an among the Sahaabah, learned from both Ubayy and Zayd.

"The orthodoxy took into consideration various factors for accepting a recitation authentic. It had to fulfill three conditions and if any of the conditions were missing such a recitation was classified as Shâdhdh (unusual).

1 The first condition was that the recitation have an authentic chain of narration in which the chain of narrators was continuous, the narrators were all known to be righteous and they were all knwon to possess good memories. It was also required that the recitation be conveyed by a large number of narrators on each level of the chain of narration below the level of Sahaabah (the condition of Tawaatur). Narrations which had authentic chains but lacked the condition of Tawaatur were accepted as explanations (Tafseer) of the Sahaabah but were not considered as methods of reciting the Qur'ân. As for the narrations which did not even have an authentic chain of narration, they were classified as Baatil (false) and rejected totally.

2 The seond condition was that the variations in recitations match known Arabic grammatical constructions. Unusual constructions could be verified by their existence in passages of pre-Islamic prose or poetry.

3 The third condition required the recitation to coincide with the script of one of the copies of the Qur'ân distributed during the era of Caliph 'Uthman. Hence differences which result from dot placement (i.e., ta'lamoon and ya'lamoon)are considered acceptable provided the other conditions are met. A recitation of a construction for which no evidence could be found would be classified Shaadhdh. This classification did not mean that all aspects of the recitation was considered Shaadhdh. It only meant that the unverified constructions were considered Shaadhdh."

So in short my friend,
In short, the reason why he burned the other copies was because new nations, which were non-Arabs, embraced Islam. And they used to make mistakes in the recitation of the Qur'an. Therefore, he resulted to the above measure, thereby, united Arabs and non-Arabs under the same recitation and scripture as the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, commanded the Companions.

The authencity of the Qur'an is indisputable in the academic world. We have two elements of authenticity that any other World Scripture lacks.

The famous Christian missionary from University of Oxford, Sir Willium Muir wrote in his book 'The Life Of Mohammad':
The recension of 'Uthman has been handed down to us unaltered. So carefully, indeed, has it been preserved, that there are no variations of importance, - we might almost say no variations at all, - amongst the innumerable copies of the Koran scattered throughout the vast bounds of empire of Islam. Contending and embittered factions, taking their rise in the murder of 'Uthman himself within a quarter of a century from the death of Muhammad have ever since rent the Muslim world. Yet but ONE KORAN has always been current amongst them.... There is probably in the world no other work which has remained twelve centuries with so pure a text.

drian Brockett said in his article 'The Value of Hafs And Warsh Transmissions For The Textual History Of The Qur'an':
The transmission of the Qur'an after the death of Muhammad was essentially static, rather than organic. There was a single text, and nothing significant, not even allegedly abrogated material, could be taken out nor could anything be put in.

Bernard Lewis in Islam in History makes a great point regardin' the transmission method used by the Muslims:
From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. "Traditional science", as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth.

 

[root]

In short, the reason why he burned the other copies was because new nations, which were non-Arabs, embraced Islam. And they used to make mistakes in the recitation of the Qur'an. Therefore, he resulted to the above measure, thereby, united Arabs and non-Arabs under the same recitation and scripture as the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, commanded the Companions.

The authencity of the Qur'an is indisputable in the academic world. We have two elements of authenticity that any other World Scripture lacks.

This issue seems to crop up time & time again. Recently, given the archeological evidence to support a "mis quote" that the parting of the red sea was not actually the red sea, but the "reefs" which by a remarkable coincidence evidence of chariot's were found beneath with "volcanic Ash". Makes me wonder as an atheist what "other" misqoutes their are.