Why do you reject Islam

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Mansio,
br Kadafi has answered most of your points, I'll just give a few words as well.

Religious borrowing is a common thing to historians of religions. There are a number of examples of that in the Quran. The bad thing is that sometimes the borrower(s) weren't able to sort out between high grade or low grade theological writings or sayings.

Religious borrowing is a very poor attempt to try to discredit the Qur'an. it is a notion completely ignorant of all historical circumstances at the time of the prophet Muhammad pbuh, as well as the details of the revelation, itself.
You may refer to this article:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Qurancopiedmyth
http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=7582

Simmilarities between the major scriptures only prove the Qur'an's claim that they are from God. God revealed His messages to humanity, so why should we be surprised at simmilarities?

The Qur’an is not a derivation from the Judeo/Christian scriptures as claimed by the orientalists and as evidenced by the following...


Some Information Given in the Qur’an that are Not Mentioned in the Bible or Old Testament:



1. Some of the Prophets mentioned in the Qur’an i.e. Hud for the Thamud and Salih for the `Ad people are not even mentioned in the Bible.


2. Information given in the Qur’an about Prophet Ibrahim specifically about his teachings on monotheism and the resultant struggle is not found in the Bible.


3. Jesus speaking in the cradle confirming the chastity of his mother, his giving life to the birds made in clay by God's permission, the table descending from heaven.


4. Musa traveling to the "meeting place of two seas".


5. The incident of Pharaoh's plan to kill Musa and that a "believer" in Pharaoh's court dissuaded him from carrying out his plan.


6. Musa striking the 12 springs for each of the Jewish tribe.


7. The magicians in Pharaoh’s court died for their belief in God.


8. Qur’an contradicts accounts given in the Bible:


9. The angels visiting Ibrahim on their way to Lut;


10. The preaching of Nuh was specifically monotheism according to Qur’an;


11. Qur’an categorically denies that concept of trinity and confirm that Jesus was no more than a Prophet - not god, not the son-of-god and not the trinity;


12. Qur’an categorically states that Jesus was not crucified nor killed;


13. Qur’an states that all the prophets are noble men sent by Allah and clears all of the prophets from evil intention or evil actions, as against what can be found in the Bible.


14. Qur’an testifies that all the prophets of God were sincere to their mission for which they were sent by God, and never betrayed their mission as suggested in the Bible such as Moses, Haroun, or sinned as in the case of Lut, David, Solomon and others.



More Details are Given in the Qur’an as Compared to the Bible



1. Incidents relating to Prophet Nuh.


2. Mary being asked to pray to Allah - implying that Mary is a human being who require the mercy of God.


3. The whole story of Yoosuf, peace and blessings be upon him, delivered in a spiritual atmosphere with more details of his life, that is not found in the Bible.



It is true that some of the historical incidents are mentioned in the Bible and the Qur’an, but this does not mean that the Qur’an picked them from these sources. Instead it is a confirmation of the events of the past but looking at them with a clear vision. There was no good library or museum in Makkah in the first place and the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, could not read or write. There were no scholars and philologists in that place to unravel the secrets of ancient work to the would-be Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him.


While casually recognizing that there are new elements in the Qur’an, the orientalists did seem to have never paid attention to find out the sources of these elements. If they had done so, the orientalists would surely have found reason to see that the assumptions under which they have hitherto been laboring so diligently and impressively need revision.

Denise Masson (and not only her) notes that the story of Dhul Qarnayn in the Quran doesn't mention Alexander the Great, but that the model of that story does ("The Romance of Alexander" by Pseudo Callisthenes and Jacques of Sarouj).

I suppose what you are trying to say is that the story of Dhul Qarnayn is similar to that of Alexander the Great, and therefore the Qur'an copied the story of Alexander the Great, and merely changed the name.
I'm sure you can see the flaws in this claim now. But let me just make sure we're clear on this. There are several points in the story of Dhul Qarnain which make it impossible for it to have been Alexander the Great. The similarities you speak of are nothing more than speculation and guesses.

If an angel appears to you and dictates you a most important message from God for the salvation of humankind, and you have it written in the next minutes on a piece of paper, would you then throw away the paper once you have it printed ?
That's exactly what happened to the Quran.

Actually it's not, and you should not make statements about something you don't know. The Qur'an was revealed in many different ways, and the Prophet Muhammad pbuh had SIXTY scribes recording for him and it was memorized by ALL companions. Nothing was thrown away.

Messages from God, written down sometimes minutes after they had been "sent down", have all been destroyed at the time of Uthman. For what reason could such a sacrilege have been done if it weren't to conceal something ? And that something could be the editorial work behind the text of the Quran.

The case with Uthman is often misunderstood. In fact it aided in the preservation of the Qur'an. As the Muslim empire spread across the world, people began to differ about the recitation. So Uthman rd burned all unauthorized copies and from then on, every one had to get permission and approval when copying out from the Qur'an. The ummah was united upon the pure Qur'an, and all unauthorized copies were burned with the companions standing by watching. This is a powerful testimony to the authenticity of Uthman rd's copy.


For a solid understanding of this subject, read "The History of the Qur'anic Text" by M. M. Al-Azami

 

[morrissey]

Hi Ansar, thankyou for linking to this site from J4J....

Above you quote that the Quran has added to what the Jews have in their Torah. The Jews were commanded not to add or subtract from it, yet these differences in your quote above mean possibly 2 things: 1 - The Jews re-wrote their Torah, or 2 - The Quran goes against G-d's commandment not to add or subtract from His Torah. What proof do you have that the Jews re-wrote their Torah? (as in physical/archaeological, without a doubt proof). Someone (even if they claim to be a prophet) just making a 'claim' that they did is just that - an unsubstantiated claim.


Do you know how the Jews have recorded their Torah word-perfect through the centuries, meticulously ensuring each one is identical? (http://www.torah.net/eng/kids/know/torah.htm) Millions of Jews around the world (obviously the majority of whom have never met, so therefore it is impossible for them to conspire) have identical copies of the Torah - if there was a difference it might be in the spelling of a word with the same meaning (eg color/colour in english), and I think the most differences they have ever found between 2 Sefer Torahs is about 9 spelling differences, as I have given in the example of the english word above. If a Torah Scroll is found to have an error, it is forbidden to use it, it is not 'kosher' and has to be religiously disposed of. It is useless.

Why, therefore, is it claimed by your religion that the Jews have corrupted their Torah? From my experience, they are obsessed to the point of almost neurotic that their Torah doesnt become corrupted.

I am not Jewish by the way, I am an ex-christian who has been seeking her true Creator and discovered the pathway to Him through the Teachings of Judaism.

Best wishes
Rebecca

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings and welcome to the forum Morrissey.
Perhaps you would like to introduce yourself in the appropriate section.

As far as your point on the textual integrity of the Torah, I think that deserves its own thread because if we deal with it, we need to do justice to the topic.

You can go ahead and make that thread and God-willingly, I will comment in it soon.

As far as the belief of the Muslims is considered, it is believed that the previous scriptures were sent by Godm and it was a test for the people to see if they cpould preserve it.

But as I have shown before, even the Torah records the rebellious and corrupt behaviour that spread amongst a group of the Children of Israel who did not practice the truth as was revealed by God. It would come as no surprise that such people who took little effort in following God's laws would take little effort as well in preserving God's laws.

That is the basic overview, but I would like to provide concrete proof, insha'Allah in the appropriate thread.

As far as your original inquiry on J4J is concerned, I would like to know if you have found the answer in this thread because you seem to have dropped the question. Namely, the question of Prophet Muhammad pbuh's reception of revelation as a person.

If you have anymore questions on that topic, I would be happy to discuss them in this thread.

Peace

 

[morrissey]

Not really, I'm sorry Ansar but you didnt really find the answer I was looking for in that thread...

Maybe had the entire muslim population experienced the revelation of the Quran, as opposed to just Mohammed, then I might raise an eyebrow and think: 'hmmm...maybe there's something in that..."

But having walked away from christianity, because I couldnt accept a religion based on the revelation given to Paul, and the life story of a man called Jesus that I had to believe in without undeniable proof of his existence, else go to eternal ****ation, I find it equally as difficult to accept Islam, which is also based on just one man's revelations.

If anything, your answer, which I first responded to, only confirmed the belief that Mohammed is a false prophet to the Jewish people, because he sought to change the Torah, and his subsequent teachings sought to contradict the Torah. This is the evidence of a false prophet. Devarim 13 discusses this.

I honestly dont have anything against you, and everyone has their right to seek G-d in their own way....but as the thread title goes: "why do you reject Islam?" - I dont think it's a matter of rejecting it, it's a matter of finding it unnecessary in my path to G-d. You have your path, I have mine, why should I change something that is working perfectly well for me? As the saying goes: "if it aint broke , dont try and fix it"

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Maybe had the entire muslim population experienced the revelation of the Quran, as opposed to just Mohammed, then I might raise an eyebrow and think: 'hmmm...maybe there's something in that..."

Tell me, did no one from the Children of Israel believe in Prophet Moses pbuh until that event? Is that when he acheived his followers? Or did they believe in him at the beginning because of the truth in his message?

People trhoughout history have asked God for a 'clear sign'. It is recorded in the Qur'an. But those who do so ignore the temporal nature of this life as a test. God answers their request in the Qur'an:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showpost.php?p=7402&postcount=65

God gave Prophet Moses miracles indeed, as did all the Prophets, but did they ever perform the miracle first? No. They preached their message even until the continual request of the unbelievers for a sign. Then God would grant some miracles. But if you think about it, the Qur'an mentions hundreds of nations who witnessed the miracles of their Prophets, but none of them belived any differently before or after. Those who were blind to the truth remained blind to the truth.

And the miracle at Mount Sinai was a miracle like any other.

Let's talk about the Children of Israel. According to what you have said about the miracle, this should have given the Children of Israel concrete faith in their religion. They should have been completely devoted to the laws if miracles are as important as you mention.

But they weren't. The Torah itself describes their rebellious attitude.

Devarim 9:5-13
Not because of your righteousness or because of the honesty of your heart, do you come to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations, the Lord your God drives them out from before you, and in order to establish the matter that the Lord swore to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You shall know that, not because of your righteousness, the Lord, your God, gives you this land to possess it; for you are a stiffnecked people.

Remember do not forget, how you angered the Lord, your God, in the desert; from the day that you went out of the land of Egypt, until you came to this place, you have been rebelling against the Lord.
At Horeb, you angered the Lord, and the Lord was incensed with you to destroy you.

When I ascended the mountain to receive the stone tablets, the tablets of the covenant which the Lord made with you, I remained on the mountain forty days and forty nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water; and the Lord gave me two stone tablets, inscribed by the finger of God, and on them was [inscribed] according to all the words that the Lord spoke with you on the mountain from the midst of the fire on the day of the assembly. And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me two stone tablets, the tablets of the covenant.

And the Lord said to me, "Arise, descend quickly from here, for your people whom you have brought out of Egypt have become corrupt; they have quickly deviated from the way which I commanded them; they have made for themselves a molten image."
And the Lord spoke to me [further], saying, "I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people.


Moses told his people:
Devarim 31:29. For I know that after my death, you will surely become corrupted, and deviate from the way which I had commanded you. Consequently, the evil will befall you at the end of days, because you did evil in the eyes of the Lord, to provoke Him to anger through the work of your hands.

And Islam was not the first to bring the charge of corrupting the scriptures against the Children of Israel:
Yirmiyahu 23:36 You pervert the words of the living God, the Lord of Hosts, our God

So we all know that the conduct of the Children of Israel cannot as a whole be described as devoted to God, despite this miracle you describe. In fact their conduct can be described as rather rebellious.

Jews make it seem as though the miracle at Mount Sinai served two purposes:
-Evidence of the truth of Judaism
-Elevation of the Children of Israel over other nations


But the fact is that all those people who were spoken to at Mount Sinai were already followers of Prophet Moses. They didn't need this miracle to believe, because they already did believe! They accompanied him out of egypt. They were his followers since day 1. So this cannot be taken as evidence for Judaism, otherwise God would have performed this miracle at the beginning when Prophet Moses was struggling to gain followers.

The truth of the matter is that this revelation served two purposes:
-Revelation of the laws to the Children of Israel
-Sign of God's infinite power i.e. deterrence from evil

The followers of Prophet Moses pbuh believed in him because of the truth of his message. but unfortunately, there were many corrupt people amongst his followers. Despite this sign, they continued in their disobedience to God, as is recorded in the Tanakh.

So why do you ask for a similar miracle to confirm your belief when the true followers of Prophet Moses never required it? Shouldn't you judge the validity of a message based upon the content of the message itself?

And I'm sure that's what you have done, when you became a Noahide. I don't think you left Christianity because you learned about the event at Mount Sinai.

And please read this post:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showpost.php?p=12809&postcount=35

 

[morrissey]

I might as well go back to being a christian if you ask me to have blind faith and just trust that your religion is correct. I need proof - like undeniable, 'ohmygosh' that is extremely persuasive. Not just "You will go to H*ll eternally if you dont just believe me". Gosh, flashbacks of christianity or what!

Leaving christianity was an extremely painful, long drawnout experience, where by I now have little to no contact with my father's side of the family. I spent a long time searching. And then nothing was hidden or mysterious when I started to learn about Judaism, except G-d Himself. The Truth flashed at me in neon lights - it was undeniable - I have never needed to have blind faith whilst I've learnt about Judaism. It's like having something in my soul uncovered, like it was there all along, it just needed to be revealled.

The Jews trusted Moses because he promised to fulfil for them the ancient promises God made to their forefathers, Avraham, Isaac and Jakob. They were Noachides who knew that God had greater things promised to them, and they trusted that Moses would lead them to the place where they would receive this Covenant from God Himself. This is the miracle of Sinai, Moses proved Himself by bringing them to experience this, en masse. God gave them all the Torah, Moses *lead* them to the Giving of the Torah, because he proved the most worthy to do so.

The Jews dont expect me to believe them, but I cannot not believe them. The Jews just expect mankind to trust the Covenant that G-d made to all mankind, which is why when one reads the 7 Laws, one thinks 'but that's really obvious - I could have thought of that myself'. Of course you could have thought it up yourself. It is a Covenant inscribed in your soul, which is represented by the Rainbow, the sign.

Ansar, I dont think you truly judge the validity of a message based upon the content of the message itself, in reference to Judaism - you show yourself to be uneducated about Torah Judaism, which is why you have gone to the J4J site to learn.

I dont take Judaism lightly. Judaism begs to be disected and questioned in order to gain understanding. There is never a question I have asked of a Rabbi where they have responded "Have blind faith", as you ask of me, and as christians ask of me.

Ansar, If the Jews corrupted their scriptures, why would the only part not corrupted be the part which you are trying to use to prove that they did? Surely if someone is trying to change a document to suit their 'wicked ways', they would paint themselves in a prettier light? It just seems absurd.

Also, Ansar, you claim that millions of muslims are corrupt because they support terrorism against innocent people - What is Allah going to do about it? The Jews dont get away with it, according to you, but you think the multitudes of Muslims I see crowding the streets in different middle eastern cities etc, after terroist attacks (eg, 911), shouting 'death to Jews' (G-d forbid) and 'death to America' (G-d forbid!) will get away with it? What does your Quran say about what will happen to these murderous venomous people, which you say have nothing to do with the Islam you are a part of?

 

[morrissey]

Ansar, my baby brother has had 2 near misses with suicide bombers. Only by the Infinite Mercies of HaShem has he been saved. Once he was 20 mtrs away from the edge of the blast site - he'd walked into a shop, Baruch HaShem!!, and the other time he miraculously overslept and missed the bus he caught every day to work, Baruch HaSHem!!. G-d is looking after him, and the G-d that protects him, is the G-d that I direct my prayers and worship to - and that G-d is the G-d of the Jews.

 

[Brother_Mujahid]

is the G-d that I direct my prayers and worship to - and that G-d is the G-d of the Jews.

Allah is not a god of the muslims, he is the universal god to the whole of creation and mankind.

just reading from the above, id like to add. When any prophet is sent, the first thing they do is to call to the oneness of the creator, the prophet will acknoledge the messagers and their messages before them.

did you know that in the quran it goes to great length in mentioning the life of musa (moses), far greater than it mentions any of the other prophets.

I think you should read what islam says about this great prophet throught the verses of the Quran, they will be similar to the story that the jews give.

 

[morrissey]

When I say "G-d of the Jews", I do not mean that is their G-d alone. They are the Light to the Nations, and The G-d that they serve, is the G-d that I choose to serve. G-d is the G-d of all mankind, because He is the Creator of all - He is the G-d of even every grain of sand, every atom in existence.....etc etc....

But I learn of this G-d from the Jews..... that is why I word it that way....

I am continuously fulfilled through Judaism, and I'm not even Jewish....I dont need Islam, I see the teachings of Judaism written on my soul....

I cannot see any good reason to change this? If Islam teaches that I need to convert, I need to know why....and no one can sufficiently show me why. It's like sitting at a banquet table covered in the greatest food and drink, and someone saying to me...."you look hungry, you look like you need food".....I then look at the food in front of me and think "no I dont"...

 

[Brother_Mujahid]

then if your so certain this is the truth then why have you not accepted and embraced it?

 

[morrissey]

Judaism doesnt expect the nations to take on the yoke of the 613 Laws. G-d created the stricter set of rules for the Jews, in order that their stringent disciplined lifestyle will safeguard and preserve the Covenant that G-d made with all mankind to Noach - the 7 Laws, for which the Rainbow is the sign. Being 'Chosen' isnt an 'exclusive club that only get into heaven' - The Jews have been the servants of the Nations, and G-d has allowed them to be preserved throughout ancient history, to this day, for our (the nations) benefit.

The Jews teach that the righteous of all Nations have a place in the world to come. You dont have to become Jewish to believe in Judaism.

 

[Brother_Mujahid]

Judaism doesnt expect the nations to take on the yoke of the 613 Laws. G-d created the stricter set of rules for the Jews, in order that their stringent disciplined lifestyle will safeguard and preserve the Covenant that G-d made with all mankind to Noach - the 7 Laws

tha sounds no different to having the blind faith in christianity which you left. Laws sent to mankind by god are for all people to follow and abide by.

In islam everyone is equal not even the arabs are chosen over others, it is the fear of Allah that distinguishes us.

In essence every muslim is a follower of the message sent by musa. We acknowlegde all the prophets that came before us.

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

Laws sent to mankind by god are for all people to follow and abide by.

In islam everyone is equal not even the arabs are chosen over others, it is the fear of Allah that distinguishes us.

Fear of God also defines a noachide. They simply do not have the many other rules of the Jews place upon them.

Even many Jews are exempted from certain commandments:
Women from time based commandments, non-priests from priestly commandments, non-nazerites from nazerine commandments, non-kings from kingly commandments.

Are you suggesting that someone who is not a priest is bound by the laws of a priest? Of course not, that doesn't make sense. If God tells the priests to do something specific, should everyone do it? Everyone is not a priest! Thus, their attempt to do a commandment that does not belong to them (such as saying the priestly blessing over a congregation) is contrary to the purpose of the law!

Overall, the Mosaic part of the law is specific to Jews, but this does not mean that the noachide are lawless, or that their laws are insignificant, simply that those laws are all that they are bound to.

Just the same, I have a hard time believing Islam does not do the same thing. Are there no laws that are specific to the Caliph? To Men? To Women? Of course there are! For example, men have a slightly different dress code than women, here Sharia already makes a distinction between the two, but this doesn't mean that they aren't equal, or that they should be following the other's law.

However, if one were to believe you, these laws are good for all mankind with no distinctions, and you could propose that men should cover themselves up as much as women, which would be a contradiction to the Quran.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings Morrissey,
May I advise that the discussion would remain more objective if you responded direcctly to my points.

Let's examine what you have said.

I might as well go back to being a christian if you ask me to have blind faith and just trust that your religion is correct.

I would like to know where I have EVER endorsed blind faith? I am sure you can appreciate the difference between blind faith and evaluating the validity of the message based upon its content. The latter is a logical algorith for discovering the truth while the former is a blatant insult to one's intellect.

My religion is actually vehemently opposed to blind faith and classifies it as the path of the misguided.

The Qur'an states about those who do not use their intellect: "They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not.* They are like cattles--nay, they are in worse error: for they are heedless." [7:179].

The Qur'an makes it more clear by the following verses:

"Here is a book which We have sent down to you, full of blessings, that you may meditate and reflect on its signs (ayaths), and that people of understanding may receive admonition." [38:29. “In the sight of Allah, people who know are not equal to those who do not know." [39:9]

Allah chose Talut as king of Jews on the grounds of his knowledge and physical ability. [2:247]. Similarly, Prophet Daud [2:251 and 2:80], Yusuf [12:22], Prophet Musa [18:65] were selected by Allah due to their knowledge.

"Behold!* In the creation of the heavens and earth, and in the alternation of night and day, there are signs [ayath] for people of understanding and intellect." [3:190]. "Do they see nothing in the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and all that Allah has created?" [7:185]


The “signs [ayath] “of God, to which the Qur’an in the above verse and other verses constantly refers, are primarily the phenomena of the natural world.* The Qur'an is Allah's speech and a book of guidance in human vernacular form and its parts are called ayath. Similarly, the universe is a book of Allah in the material form and its parts are called ayath in the Qur’an.* Islam does not draw a clear line of demarcation between the natural and supernatural.* The physical universe is an integral part of the Muslim's religious universe.* Humanity has to explore the universe and its laws in order to know God.* Therefore, understanding the spiritual significance of an active nature (kiyan) is an important stepping-stone on the road to Islamic spirituality.* The sun, moon, and stars are not mere heavenly bodies but religious realities that participate in the Islamic vision of the universe.* In the Qur'an, Allah even takes them as witness on the Last Day:*
“So, I call the receding stars to witness.”* [81:15].

Both Qur'an and nature urge human beings to worship God:
“We shall show them our portents on the horizon and within themselves until it will be manifested unto them that it is the truth...” [Qur’an 41:53].
Therefore, a contemplative attitude towards nature is a form of worship.

If you re-read my response carefully, I am sure you will see that what I am advocating is very different from blind faith.

I need proof - like undeniable, 'ohmygosh' that is extremely persuasive. Not just "You will go to H*ll eternally if you dont just believe me". Gosh, flashbacks of christianity or what!

The reasons you are having flashbacks of Christianity is because you are only thinking about Christianity. I never made that statement about Hellfire.

I think you have also not considered the concepts I emphasized in my previous, which Is why I encourage you to respond directly to my points.

There are miracles in Islam as well, just as there is Mount Sinai for the Jews. But remember that such miracles are not what convinced the sincere followers of the Prophets.

Did Prophet Moses gain his followers before or after Mount Sinai??

Leaving christianity was an extremely painful, long drawnout experience, where by I now have little to no contact with my father's side of the family. I spent a long time searching. And then nothing was hidden or mysterious when I started to learn about Judaism, except G-d Himself. The Truth flashed at me in neon lights - it was undeniable - I have never needed to have blind faith whilst I've learnt about Judaism. It's like having something in my soul uncovered, like it was there all along, it just needed to be revealled.

Naturally, this would be expected from any story of conversion, and I congratualte you on your courage to accept Judaism.

But perhaps you could explain to us, the three most convincing factors in your conversion to Judaism, either any inadequacies in Christianity or any positive features of Judaism.

I think this would be a very important point.

The Jews trusted Moses because he promised to fulfil for them the ancient promises God made to their forefathers, Avraham, Isaac and Jakob.

And you know as well as I do, that a man who promises to simply fulfill ancient promises is not evidence for the validity of a claim, but it is a claim itself.

They were Noachides who knew that God had greater things promised to them, and they trusted that Moses would lead them to the place where they would receive this Covenant from God Himself.

Why did they trust Prophet Moses? Would you describe these people as weak minded because they believed in him without recieving direct revelation from God? Would you, thus, describe the closest followers of Prophet Moses as 'blind followers'?

This is the miracle of Sinai, Moses proved Himself by bringing them to experience this, en masse. God gave them all the Torah, Moses *lead* them to the Giving of the Torah, because he proved the most worthy to do so.

Again, you are labelling the miracle at Mount Sinai as the evidence for their faith, yet it is clearly not so, from a simple glance at history.

The Miracle at Mount Sinai was for those who were already his followers, i.e. they already believed in him and had faith in him. WHY?

They believed in him because of the content of his message.

Are miracles as important as you make them seem?

- if they were, we should have expected the armies of Pharoah to believe in Prophet Moses after witnessing the stick-snake, or the splitting of the sea
-if they were, we should have expected the followers of Prophet Moses to come to him only after the miracles
-if they were, we should have expected Prophet Moses to perform the miracles at the very initiation of his mission
-if they were, we should have expected a dramatic change on the conduct of the Children of Israel, one of devotion to the laws of God, rather than the rebellious conduct which the Tanakh records​

The Jews dont expect me to believe them, but I cannot not believe them. The Jews just expect mankind to trust the Covenant that G-d made to all mankind, which is why when one reads the 7 Laws, one thinks 'but that's really obvious - I could have thought of that myself'. Of course you could have thought it up yourself. It is a Covenant inscribed in your soul, which is represented by the Rainbow, the sign.

Perhaps you can elaborate on the reasoning behind the highlighted statement.

I would also like to comment on a very important point you raised.

Yes, God's laws are known to human beings because God has implanted in every human being the fitrah, an innate sense of good, much like a moral compass. It may become clouded by our desires and remain unused, but it is there in every human being and the way of submission is the natural way which our fitrah points to.

The Qur'an says:
3:114 They(the muslims) believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is maruf, and forbid what is munkar; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.

Munkar is evil, and Maruf refers to what is known by all humanity as righteous and good. So the call to Islam, is a call to one's true nature of good, given by God.

Ansar, I dont think you truly judge the validity of a message based upon the content of the message itself, in reference to Judaism - you show yourself to be uneducated about Torah Judaism, which is why you have gone to the J4J site to learn.

I think it would be very foolish to think that the knowledgeable need not learn. Learning is an ongoing process. I fail to see how my striving for interfaith discussions reflects ignorance on my part.

I chose Islam, not because my parents were Muslim, but because I saw the truth in Islam after approaching the universe with logic and reason.

As far as the content of the message of Judaism, I believe that Judaism as taught by Prophet Moses pbuh was Islam, as were all the Prophets of God. The message brought by God's human guides is the same eternal message of Islam.

Islam is not a different religion. Islam is the final message and the seal of the messages of the previous Prophets. I believe in Prophet Moses and his message, and therefore profess myself to be one of his followers.

Please contemplate the following verses:
Suratul Baqarah:
130. And who turns away from the religion of Ibrâhim (Abraham) (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism) except him who befools himself? Truly, We chose him in this world and verily, in the Hereafter he will be among the righteous.

131. When his Lord said to him, "Submit (i.e. be a Muslim)!" He said, "I have submitted myself (as a Muslim) to the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)."

132. And this (submission to Allâh, Islâm) was enjoined by Ibrâhim (Abraham) upon his sons and by Ya'qûb (Jacob), (saying), "O my sons! Allâh has chosen for you the (true) religion, then die not except in the Faith of Islâm (as Muslims - Islâmic Monotheism)."

133. Or were you witnesses when death approached Ya'qûb (Jacob)? When he said unto his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We shall worship your Ilâh (God - Allâh), the Ilâh (God) of your fathers, Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), One Ilâh (God), and to Him we submit (in Islâm)."

134. That was a nation who has passed away. They shall receive the reward of what they earned and you of what you earn. And you will not be asked of what they used to do.

135. And they say, "Be Jews or Christians, then you will be guided." Say (to them, O Muhammad Peace be upon him ), "Nay, (We follow) only the religion of Ibrâhim (Abraham), Hanifa [Islâmic Monotheism, i.e. to worship none but Allâh (Alone)], and he was not of Al-Mushrikûn (those who worshipped others along with Allâh - see V.2:105)."

136. Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Mûsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm)."

137. So if they believe in the like of that which you believe, then they are rightly guided, but if they turn away, then they are only in opposition. So Allâh will suffice you against them. And He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower.

138. [Our Sibghah (religion) is] the Sibghah (Religion) of Allâh (Islâm) and which Sibghah (religion) can be better than Allâh's? And we are His worshippers.

I dont take Judaism lightly. Judaism begs to be disected and questioned in order to gain understanding. There is never a question I have asked of a Rabbi where they have responded "Have blind faith", as you ask of me, and as christians ask of me.

Please do NOT put words in my mouth! I never said "have blind faith"! That is dynamically opposed to the values of my religion.

I request that you re-read my post and answer my points directly, as it seems that you have completely misinterpreted by message, or are replacing my words with your past impression of Christians.

Ansar, If the Jews corrupted their scriptures, why would the only part not corrupted be the part which you are trying to use to prove that they did? Surely if someone is trying to change a document to suit their 'wicked ways', they would paint themselves in a prettier light? It just seems absurd.

The parts of the Torah that muslims believe in are those that are confirmed by God's latest revelation. Confusion and corruption has spread in the previous revelations, so the final message clarifies the matter. This time, it is not a test of humans to preserve it, but to spread its light to people of all nations. The previous messages were restricted to their respective nations.

Also, Ansar, you claim that millions of muslims are corrupt

Can you please start quoting my statements and responding to them directly. I find it very difficult to dialogue through so many strawmen- I have not claimed what you attribute to me.

There are corrupt people in every group.

because they support terrorism against innocent people

Islam denounces terrorism.

God commands justice and doing good and giving to relatives. And He forbids indecency and doing wrong and tyranny. He warns you so that hopefully you will pay heed. (Qur'an, 16:90)

Please read:
http://islamdenouncesterrorism.com/terrorism1.htm
http://thetruereligion.org/modules/wfsection/index.php?category=14

What is Allah going to do about it?

Punish them. What else would He do about it? Salvation belongs to those who have faith and perform righteous deeds.

As the Qur'an says:
41:46 Whoever works righteousness benefits his own soul; whoever works evil, it is against his own soul: nor is thy Lord ever unjust (in the least) to His Servants.

The Jews dont get away with it, according to you, but you think the multitudes of Muslims I see crowding the streets in different middle eastern cities etc, after terroist attacks (eg, 911), shouting 'death to Jews' (G-d forbid) and 'death to America' (G-d forbid!) will get away with it?

A couple of points here:
You are judging Islam based on the typical misconceptions from the media. You are allowing your personal experience to cloud your perception of Islam. If you had an abusive teacher, would you ask for all schools to be shut down?

Secondly, if you wish to understand why these people react in the way they do, then perhaps you should do some research on the conditions in their countries and pretty much "stepp into their shoes". Obviously, much of the behaviour around the world is against Islamic teachings, and as such I certainly am opposed to it, and join all the other Muslims in denouncing it. But that does not negate the fact that we should still try to understand these people, to understand their situation. Only by doing that, will it resolve our conflicts. I am sure you would not wish them to judge you based on the stereotypical views of their media, so why would you make the same mistake?

This has nothing to do with Islam, its just a simple attitude for world peace.

What does your Quran say about what will happen to these murderous venomous people, which you say have nothing to do with the Islam you are a part of?

"my" Qur'an, as you have chosen to label it, says the following:

...if someone kills another person - unless it is in retaliation for someone else or for causing corruption in the earth - it is as if he had murdered all mankind. And if anyone gives life to another person, it is as if he had given life to all mankind... (Qur'an, 5:32

God does not love corruption". (Qur'an, 2:205)

Eat and drink of God's provision and do not go about the earth corrupting it. (Qur'an, 2:60)


Do not corrupt the earth after it has been put right. Call on Him fearfully and eagerly. God's mercy is close to the good-doers. (Qur'an, 7:56)

It is quite impossible for someone who fears God and has grasped the true morality of Islam to support violence or wickedness, or to take part in such actions. That is why Islam is the true solution to terrorism. When the sublime morality of the Qur'an is explained, it will be impossible for people to connect true Islam with those who support or join groups that aim at hatred, war and chaos. That is because God has forbidden wickedness:

Whenever he holds the upperhand, he goes about the earth corrupting it, destroying (people's) crops and breeding stock. God does not love corruption. When he is told to have fear of God, he is seized by pride which drives him to wrongdoing. Hell will be enough for him! What an evil resting-place. (Qur'an, 2:205-206)

... And do good as God has been good to you. And do not seek to cause corruption in the earth. God does not love corrupters. (Qur'an, 28:77)

Please read here:
http://islamdenouncesterrorism.com/terrorism2.htm

Ansar, my baby brother has had 2 near misses with suicide bombers. Only by the Infinite Mercies of HaShem has he been saved. Once he was 20 mtrs away from the edge of the blast site - he'd walked into a shop, Baruch HaShem!!, and the other time he miraculously overslept and missed the bus he caught every day to work, Baruch HaSHem!!. G-d is looking after him, and the G-d that protects him, is the G-d that I direct my prayers and worship to - and that G-d is the G-d of the Jews.

I am glad that Allah swt saved your baby brother from such a dreadful catastrophe, but I'm afraid I don't see the point your are making with this narrative. Unless you wish to imply that we have seperate Gods and you are tallying up the score for "the Jewish God", which is a ludicrous notion.

Or perhaps you are wishing to blame Islam for your personal experiences with Muslims, which would be as ludicrous as blaming Judaism for the corruption of some Jews, or even more simply, blaming Mathematics for the mistake you obtained on your test.

I am continuously fulfilled through Judaism, and I'm not even Jewish....I dont need Islam, I see the teachings of Judaism written on my soul....

Perhaps you have not yet realized that Judaism as practiced by Prophet Moses was Islam. Islam is not an alternate system. It is the last and final revelation of God, to complete the message to humanity.

I strongly encourage that you begin some basic understanding of Islam from this website:
http://www.beconvinced.com

In many cases you will find that it complements your Judaic beliefs.

In fact, Muslims are Noahides in practice. The only difference is we have the additional belief in the completeion of God's message.

I cannot see any good reason to change this? If Islam teaches that I need to convert, I need to know why....and no one can sufficiently show me why.

I don't think you have waited lonbg enough for that. The discussion has only just begun. Please check out the links I gave you. I find that reading about Judaism is very useful to me, maybe you will find the same thing about Islam.

It's like sitting at a banquet table covered in the greatest food and drink, and someone saying to me...."you look hungry, you look like you need food".....I then look at the food in front of me and think "no I dont"...

The food has not yet been prepared, and you haven't yet taken your seat at the table.

greetings of peace from a Muslim Noahide,
Ansar Al-'Adl

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Are you suggesting that someone who is not a priest is bound by the laws of a priest? Of course not, that doesn't make sense. If God tells the priests to do something specific, should everyone do it? Everyone is not a priest! Thus, their attempt to do a commandment that does not belong to them (such as saying the priestly blessing over a congregation) is contrary to the purpose of the law!

Perhaps you have forgotten that there is no priesthood in Islam.

However, if one were to believe you, these laws are good for all mankind with no distinctions, and you could propose that men should cover themselves up as much as women, which would be a contradiction to the Quran.

While a man-woman:Jew-gentile anlaogy is certainly better than the Rabbi's talent-analogy, I believe this one is also not very accurate.

males are never declared to be the "righteous guide" for women, or vice-versa. They are certainly equal in their relation to God. Men are never described as the "chosen gender". In fact the verse from Al-Hujurat discusses males and females as well:
49:13 O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

But when we examine the Jew-Gentile comparison, we find that it is very different. Gentiles are not considered chosen because Judaism says that their ancestors did not accept the Torah, something that we have no control of.

And Jews do not like intermarriage, or Jews leaving Judaism.

I find the notion of classification based on one's ethnicity, difficult to say the least.

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

Perhaps you have forgotten that there is no priesthood in Islam.

Classes are an analogy Ansar Al-'Adl. You have your leaders too.

While a man-woman:Jew-gentile anlaogy is certainly better than the Rabbi's talent-analogy, I believe this one is also not very accurate.

males are never declared to be the "righteous guide" for women, or vice-versa. They are certainly equal in their relation to God.

I never said that they are not equal, I said they have different laws. Which most people confuse to mean "better" or "worse". Are you better or worse than a woman because you do not have a stricter dress code?
If you contend that such a fact does not change either of your status' with Allah, you shouldn't have a problem with the difference between the Jew and the Gentile.

But when we examine the Jew-Gentile comparison, we find that it is very different. Gentiles are not considered chosen because Judaism says that their ancestors did not accept the Torah, something that we have no control of.

They do have the control to take the Torah on themselves, but that is unnessicary because, again, that alone doesn't make them better.

I guess I can say it a thousand times and no one will hear: Chosenness does not imply a relationship with God that others cannot achieve, simply a different way of achieving it.

Please read into the following link Ansar Al-'Adl, it gives great detail on chosenness, and why this is not a privilige issue, simply a difference of duties:
http://www.simpletoremember.com/faqs/The_Jewish_Nation.htm
A small Excerpt:
What does it mean to be chosen? Chosen for what?

G-d chose us for special duties not privilegeshttp://www.simpletoremember.com/faqs/The_Jewish_Nation.htm#_ftn6, because we showed a willingness to accept those duties, which the rest of the world rejected. These responsibilities involve not only a more demanding level of spiritual and moral standards, but also include caring for the broader spiritual fulfillment of the world and all its peoplehttp://www.simpletoremember.com/faqs/The_Jewish_Nation.htm#_ftn7. The Jews did not accept the Torah only for themselves, but on behalf of the whole world. Nor have we ever tried to get anyone else to take over our responsibilities.

And Jews do not like intermarriage, or Jews leaving Judaism.

Muslims do?

I find the notion of classification based on one's ethnicity, difficult to say the least.

This is why I mention non-jews, Jews, priests, men, women, rules, and Nazerenes (oath takers, essencially). They have different, additional, less, easier, harder, laws than the others based on who they are, be it ethnicity, parents, gender, status, or otherwise, but that doesn't inheirently make them unequal.

“The Bible terms Israel סגולה, “a chosen treasure." This designation, however, does not imply, as some have falsely interpreted it, that Israel has a monopoly on G-d's love and favor. On the contrary, it proclaims that G-d has the sole and exclusive claim to Israel's devotion and service." (Fifteenth Letter)

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Muslims do?

Islam does not make the same claims as Judaism. Islam is universal and makes no distinction between any nation. What matters is that you love your Lord and worship Him.

I would have no problem with much of what you have said, but I think some other ideas are being neglected in your explanation, such as the Jews recieving Prophets from God, while the Gentiles must recieve the Jewish nation as their 'prophet' because of the Jew's claimed righteousness and example to all.

 

[morrissey]

tha sounds no different to having the blind faith in christianity which you left. Laws sent to mankind by god are for all people to follow and abide by.

In islam everyone is equal not even the arabs are chosen over others, it is the fear of Allah that distinguishes us.

In essence every muslim is a follower of the message sent by musa. We acknowlegde all the prophets that came before us.

I dont know if Spacefalcon has addressed this, as Ive only just read your post.

Being 'Chosen' is not the same as being put in an exclusive fantastic club.

It is harder to be a Jew than a Gentile. Non-Jews have WAAYYYY less expected of them and they receive equal from G-d. The ones who have it more difficult are the Jews! They have to keep Shabbas to be pleasing to G-d, the non-Jew does not, and we are still as equally pleasing to G-d.

The Jews are the servant to the Nations.

There is a joke that says that G-d offered the Torah to all the other nations before the Jews. G-d first took it to the English. The English checked it over, and said: "so, we'll have to stop eating pork sausages?" G-d said: "Yes", The English said, "no, we dont want it". G-d took it to the French, and the French looked it over and said: "So, we'll only get to make-love only 2 weeks in the month - sorry, no we dont want it". G-d took it to the Japanese, who looked it over and said "So, we cant work on a Saturday? No, sorry, we dont want it". So on and So on, each nation found something that they couldnt bring themselves to do. Lastly, G-d went to the Jews. "Jewish people, will you take the burden of my Torah upon yourselves". The Jews looked it over. "How much does it cost?" They asked G-d. "It's free", G-d replied. "Ok, we'll take it", they replied......

It doesnt take blind faith for me, I promise you. The Laws I already know, where they came from though, the pieces of the puzzle fit together they way the Jews explain. I can follow the laws whether I believe what stories the Jews say or not. The Jews believe that righteous people that live in nations that have never heard of or seen a Jew in their life also merit a place in the world to come. If you keep the laws, you get in....it is written in our hearts, we dont need to be told about it. That is why the laws sound so simple and obvious. G-d created them inside there, whether we rise above our egos and keep them is another matter. But all this is attainable without any connection to the Jews.

I also think it doesnt take blind faith to agree that 3 million Jews simultaneously recieved the Torah, as opposed to Just 1 man in Islam and 1 man in christianity. It would take more blind faith for me to believe that 3 million jews sat down one day under a mountain and conspired to make up the entire Torah. Two Jews agreeing? I dont think so...... It is much easier to believe that G-d spoke to them all, and that is why they have carried the identical story throughout ancient history to this day.

This would take blind faith: Trying to believe that Since the dawn of time, everyone was muslims. Where is the archaeological proof of this? I have seen archaeological proof of the Sinai event, but none of any Islamic event.

I think Muslims are on the right track, dont get me wrong. Being monotheistic is the natural religion for all mankind. But the Jews believe that each nation (70 nations) have their own unique path to G-d, using the 7 laws as the blueprint. The error, as we all agree, is using intermediaries, as this idolatry. I pray to G-d, the Creator of the Universe. You pray to G-d, the Creator of the Universe. As long as we keep the laws, we are equal in His eyes. I dont have to become Jewish, Muslim or christian....Sikh, Buddhist or Hindu......I just have to follow the 7 universal laws, and I am doing as G-d expects of me. This is the message of the Jews. This is why you dont have to become Jewish. Their more complicated laws have been merely a vehicle by which purity has been maintained in the world, so the nations dont end up defying the 7 laws, and having ourselves obliterated.

I have never heard a more hopeful message, and a message which makes me well-up with the true understanding of the infinite love that our Creator has for all His Creation

 

[morrissey]

Naturally, this would be expected from any story of conversion, and I congratualte you on your courage to accept Judaism.

But perhaps you could explain to us, the three most convincing factors in your conversion to Judaism, either any inadequacies in Christianity or any positive features of Judaism.

I think this would be a very important point.

Hi Ansar, I wil respond bit by bit - I have 3 sons vying for my attention also today....

Firstly, as of yet I have not converted to Judaism, I remain a Noachide. To convert is something I have a strong magnetic pull to do, but it is a long journey, as once you are a Jew you complicate life for yourself. As a Noachide, I dont have to do any where near so much, and I can strive to be equally as pleasing in the eyes of G-d. The Talmud states that a Righteous Gentile can reach the lofty spiritual heights of a Kohen Godel (Jewish High Priest) - something which your average Jew is incapable of. So I live with a choice....either one is the pathway to G-d - one is just a rockier road.

Leaving christianity was not necessarily connected to becoming Noachide for me (I didnt find out about the 7 laws till about 6 years later). so,

reason 1: I couldnt beleive in a human deity, born of a virgin, who became a human sacrifice.

Reason 2: I couldnt believe that righteous people, who could not bring themselves to accept Jesus as a g?d (G-d forbid!) would end up in an eternal h*ll. Coupled with that, if G-d is a loving and merciful G-d who transcends time and space, and knows what the future holds, it was just plain sick and cruel to create people who did not have the ability to accept Jesus, who would go to h*ll eternally. I couldn't believe that the real G-d was like that.

Reason 3: Hypocrisy....usually the clincher for most people leaving a religion. Contradictory sermons, contradictory stories in the New Testament. Things just didnt add up, and when I asked questions I was told to have blind faith, and it was just the d*vil trying to confuse me and lead me astray.

So, each of those reasons connects to why I accept Judaism, and it sits most comfortably with my soul:

Reason 1: Judaism believes that a human deity, born of a virgin, who became a human sacrifice are all pagan idolatrous beliefs, and are vile to G-d.

Reason 2: Judaism believes the Righteous of all the Nations, as long as
they keep the seven laws, have a place in the world to come. G-d 'means tests' our souls, depending on how much we offer him of our lives (eg, Cain and Abel's sacrifice - G-d judged them on the motivation of their hearts). Also, the concept of eternal ****ation has never existed in Judaism. All our souls are pure, we are tested on how much we use our free-will to tame our egos, and 'break-in' our egos, like a rider breaks-in a horse (ie, dont destroy your ego, make it work for you!). Judaism is about the here and now, making this world a place worthy as a dwelling place for HaShem, which was His intention all along. This world isnt a bad place, it is a place to be rectified and purified. This is why the Jews are not concerned with reward or an afterlife. This makes perfect sense to me.

And Reason 3: I am free to question and batter any 'idea' with a huge stick until I understand. There is no expectation of me to just accept any idea without knowing why. If something appears contradictory, I am not told to just accept it, I am welcome to question it, disect it and work through it until my brain is satisfied with the result.

There are manifold reasons why I have taken to Judaism like a duck to water.....I could probably write a novel, but people would switch off half way through reading!

The book which was a turning point for me to devoting my life to deepening my understanding of the 7 laws, was a book by Rabbi Simon Jacobson, called 'Towards a Meaningful Life'. It is a book for anyone of any religion, and I wouldnt be surprised if a Muslim were to read it, they would agree with every word he says......So maybe he wrote my novel of reasons for me?

 

[morrissey]

The food has not yet been prepared, and you haven't yet taken your seat at the table.

greetings of peace from a Muslim Noahide,
Ansar Al-'Adl

Ansar 'Adl - sometimes it seems like we are arguing when in actual fact we are agreeing. There are obvious points we disagree on, but I think they are the factors which do require proving to me.

Ansar 'Adl, I have been sitting and indulging at the 'banquet table' now for many years. The feast is good and I have become healthier and because of the nuitrition.....from my experience, (as I try to talk to you without my mouth full ) is that I stumbled upon the feast when I stumbled upon Judaism. Christianity was the equivilant of Mcdonalds to me - if filled me up for a while, but made me unhealthy and it got monotonous.

Judaism has offered me all the most exquisite delicacies, it has been like stumbling upon an eternal alladdins cave of treasures. I have more than I need, I do literally feel as though 'my cup runneth over'....

If I have more than I need already, why should I try to cram anything else in?

It's like driving a magnificent sports car, that works perfectly and a mechanic telling me it doesnt - yet I experience it and I know it does.

Ansar 'Adl, I am not 'rejecting Islam'. I merely find it 'unnecessary'.

G-d is in my life, and I cannot escape Him. I speak to Him all the time, and He responds, in the classic fashion of my understanding in retrospect how he answers me. Every day Ansar. I prayed for a friend giving birth 2 nights ago, I said Tehillim for her, as she has always had difficult births. She had a fabulous water birth, which was the furtherest from the expectations of the Doctors. I am sure G-d answers you too in a similar fashion. G-d is not leading me to become Muslim. G-d is leading me to be a better me, so that I am a more productive member of the human race.

We are more similar than we are disimilar. I dont know why, if you say eternal d**nation isnt a key factor in the Muslims drive to make converts (you keep saying you've never mentioned it), that you wish that I should convert. I dont think you need to convert to anything, why do you think I should convert? My relationship with G-d, who you call Allah, is GREAT