Why does God demand worship?

[Skavau]

The universe can be grasped by reason, but not the creator of the universe. You cannot expect that you can describe God just by your reason or observation. The only thing about God that may be accessible to the reason is the existence of God. But How he existed, what does he look like, .. are questions out of our reason. They need 'reason' + 'belief' + 'revelation from God' to have answers.

I have no reason to take your position seriously then. You come to me and tell me that you believe in an entity that cannot be observed, cannot be grasped by reason and lives 'outside' of all known reality. Iti s by your own admission, unreasonable.

 

[Dagless]

We are expected then to believe that the universe was far too complex to have just been, or just be (eternally) but we are not expected to hold a hypothetical (and necessarily, far more complicated and powerful) deity to the same scrutiny. You would have us suspend the very logic you invoke us to embark upon against a godless existence and willingly suspend our reasoning when we apply to God. This is identical to telling us that your position is not based on reason.

How can you compare the universe with God? We already know, beyond reasonable doubt, our universe is not eternal and will eventually die out.

I have no reason to take your position seriously then. You come to me and tell me that you believe in an entity that cannot be observed, cannot be grasped by reason and lives 'outside' of all known reality. Iti s by your own admission, unreasonable.

It is possible to grasp by reason that there is a God (i.e. there is an outside to the box), but not possible to comprehend or fully understand that God.

 

[marwen]

If you admit that your reason can let you know everything and there is nothing out of the reach of reason, then yes you don't have to take my position seriously.
I say that there are things or concepts that need more than reason to be understood. For you that's unreasonable. For me it's wise enough to admit our reason has limits.

 

[Skavau]

How can you compare the universe with God? We already know, beyond reasonable doubt, our universe is not eternal and will eventually die out.

I did not say our universe. I said the universe.

How can I compare the universe with God? Both are, by everyone's admission unknowns. We do not know much at all about the universe prior to the Big Bang. We do not know anything whatsoever about an alleged deity. Why should exemptions be applied to a deity (that some propose, not know to exist), and restrictions on the universe?

That's not at all what he said. It is possible to grasp by reason that there is a God (i.e. there is an outside to the box), but not possible to comprehend or fully understand that God.

He did say. He said our reasoning cannot be applied to our creator (click here). He said that God cannot be described by reason or observation (click here). He also has stated that God lives "outside of the box" (see first link).

 

[Dagless]

I did not say our universe. I said the universe.

How can I compare the universe with God? Both are, by everyone's admission unknowns. We do not know much at all about the universe prior to the Big Bang. We do not know anything whatsoever about an alleged deity. Why should exemptions be applied to a deity (that some propose, not know to exist), and restrictions on the universe?

Our universe is the universe. When people talk about the universe they are speaking of one and the same. So you do not know what came before the big bang but disagree that we can say the same thing about God?
You agree that there must have been something before the big bang but cannot find out what it is, likewise we know there is a God but cannot understand him.

He did say. He said our reasoning cannot be applied to our creator (click here). He said that God cannot be described by reason or observation (click here). He also has stated that God lives "outside of the box" (see first link).

The universe can be grasped by reason, but not the creator of the universe. You cannot expect that you can describe God just by your reason or observation. The only thing about God that may be accessible to the reason is the existence of God. But How he existed, what does he look like, .. are questions out of our reason. They need 'reason' + 'belief' + 'revelation from God' to have answers.

Obviously you did not read the part in bold. As said in my previous post God's existence is within understanding, God is not.
I also don't like speaking for marwen, hence removed start of my previous post. Only he knows what he meant but my interpretation is that he is saying the above.

 

[Skavau]

Our universe is the universe. When people talk about the universe they are speaking of one and the same. So you do not know what came before the big bang but disagree that we can say the same thing about God?

The universe is effectively the sum total of everything that exists. That is what I am referring to.

In any case, no I do not what was prior to the Big Bang. I don't say you cannot concede ignorance regarding what was prior to God. You are free to do that and it is I observe as raindrop of humility in the theistic perspective.

What I do say is that you cannot contend after saying that well, we don't know the origins of God, we can't hold any of our reason into deciphering God and we cannot observe anything about God claim that you know God to be true and contend that everyone should agree. You cannot very well claim the universe cannot be eternal, invoke the cosmological argument and disagree with infinity in general and then go on and say that God is eternal. It is a path to special pleading and arguments from ignorance.

You agree that there must have been something before the big bang but cannot find out what it is, likewise we know there is a God but cannot understand him.

How is that comparable? I say, that in the absence of evidence that I concede ignorance. You say that you will invoke a deity to apparently explain it all.

Obviously you did not read the part in bold. As said in my previous post God's existence is within understanding, God is not. I also don't like speaking for marwen, hence removed start of my previous post. Only he knows what he meant but my interpretation is that he is saying the above.

He can clarify. He did say that God's existence can be affirmed through reason. He however, did say the other three things which was what I pointed out.

 

[marwen]

He can clarify. He did say that God's existence can be affirmed through reason. He however, did say the other three things which was what I pointed out.

Yes skavau, I said the existence of God can be affirmed through reason, That's what Dagless showed too. But you cannot make assumptions about all God's characteristics based on your human reasoning. For example, you cannot make the assumption that God only exists if someone made him. This assumption is applied on created objects not on the Creator of these objects.

 

[Skavau]

Yes skavau, I said the existence of God can be affirmed through reason, That's what Dagless showed too. But you cannot make assumptions about all God's characteristics based on your human reasoning. For example, you cannot make the assumption that God only exists if someone made him. This assumption is applied on created objects not on the Creator of these objects.

These are your restrictions of course. The terms 'created objects' and 'creator' in the context that you're using them simply are not in my world view. When someone tells me that a God, or a deity exists and tells me that he is beyond our capacity to understand him - I contend that I am right to hold it to just as much scrutiny as anything else.

 

[marwen]

If I don't fully understand what God is, that doesn't mean He doesn't exist. Many other things exist and we haven't a clear understanding of them, but we know they exist.

 

[Dagless]

The universe is effectively the sum total of everything that exists. That is what I am referring to.

In any case, no I do not what was prior to the Big Bang. I don't say you cannot concede ignorance regarding what was prior to God. You are free to do that and it is I observe as raindrop of humility in the theistic perspective.

What I do say is that you cannot contend after saying that well, we don't know the origins of God, we can't hold any of our reason into deciphering God and we cannot observe anything about God claim that you know God to be true and contend that everyone should agree. You cannot very well claim the universe cannot be eternal, invoke the cosmological argument and disagree with infinity in general and then go on and say that God is eternal. It is a path to special pleading and arguments from ignorance.


How is that comparable? I say, that in the absence of evidence that I concede ignorance. You say that you will invoke a deity to apparently explain it all.

This is confusing matters. Saying we can concede ignorance as to what was before God is in itself ignorant. It has been stated that we believe God has no beginning and no end, therefore the question of what came before is illogical. Lets put it very simply:

- Belief in God is based on evidence.
- Belief the universe will end is based on evidence.
- I do not understand God fully.
- I do not understand the universe fully.

 

[Pygoscelis]

No, belief in God is not based on evidence. It is based on faith.

 

[Darth Ultor]

Faith and the fact that some things can just not be explained.

 

[Dagless]

No, belief in God is not based on evidence. It is based on faith.

It is based on evidence from the Quran, from life, etc. This is more than the blind faith implied.

 

[Woodrow]

In very simple terms. some people see prayer as being a demanded chore, others see it as a gift and key to happiness. The meaning of this thread will vary depended on how we view prayer. I see prayer as a joy and as a great gift to us.

 

[Darth Ultor]

I don't feel that connection in prayer. My prayers are sincere, but I feel that there are other ways to feel close to God.

 

[Woodrow]

I don't feel that connection in prayer. My prayers are sincere, but I feel that there are other ways to feel close to God.

That which makes you close to God(swt) is a prayer even if it is not a standard or commanded method. Even a smile can be a prayer if the intent and thought is to please God(swt). All that we do and think should be a prayer, but few if any of us will ever achieve that.

 

[cat eyes]

importance of salah (prayer) in islam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCyexasyRzs

 

[siam]

"God is described in every faith as something beyond human comprehension, an all-know all-powerful spiritual force intertwined with everything physical and spiritual, yet is nothing like His creation. It seems rather ungodly for Him to demand worship and submission as if He is human king ruling an absolute monarchy....."

I would like to take a stab at answering the original question----this is my opinion only......(The part about Judaism comes from a conversation with a Jewish person on the concept of soul)

If we accept that God is Just, Compassionate, and Merciful. And, we also accept that God has no needs/wants---Then any assumption that God "demands" that we worship him out of any "egoic' desires/wants such as arrogance, pride, anger, jealousy...etc have to be ruled out.

The Quran says we have been created for worship of God, and that this worship strenghtens our souls. Soul in Quran is Nafs, and in Judaism it is Nefesh. In Judaism, Nefesh is further divided into 2 parts/levels, Yezter Ha Ra,(egoic/animal soul) and Yezter Ha Tov, (transegoic soul) which would correspond somewhat to Nafs Ammara (egoic/animal soul) and Nafs Lawwama (transegoic soul).
(Nafs Mutmainna (Peaceful soul) would correspond to Neshama (the highest level of soul)in Judaism)

God created the soul to inhabit the body. As Human beings, (body and soul) we need to have shelter, to eat, to have companionship, and to protect the family and territory in order to survive on earth. Therefore, our "animal desires" are a neccessary part of our survival mechanism. However, we have also been created inherently good. When God animated us, he blew in his breath/spirit (Ruh= Quran, Ruach=Judaism) We have spiritual natures. When we build up God awareness (Taqwa) through worship of God, we strengthen our spiritual natures/soul---which leads us to strengthen in goodness. Weakness of our transegoic soul leads us to strenghten our egoic soul--which leads to all kinds of problems such as pride, anger, hate, arrogance, greed...etc.

Thus, a Compassionate, Merciful and Just God, guides us to the right path so that we may enter Paradise. To worship God is for the benefit of Human beings. Therefore, "submission" as demaded in Islam is a path that leads to "Nafs mutmainna"--or peaceful soul because we achieve harmony/balance with the noble nature we were created with.

So why give us free-will---why not just create us to obey God's will? ----Because God is compassionate and Merciful----It is our scope of free-will that enables us to connect with the Divine, to experience spirituality. without it, we would never have the oportunity---we would simply be like any other animal.

God has given us conditional free-will. We do not have a choice as to where we are born, when we die or some of the circumstances of our life---but we do have some choices. With free-will, coupled with God-given intelligence, we can choose to make choices that would benefit all of God's creations in the best possible way. As his representatives on earth, it is our responsibility to do so.---and we can best accomplish our duty through Islam (submission to God)

​

 

[Gabriel Ibn Yus]

Hey Boaz

This is a beautiful question.

I heard a beautiful answer once (that is, it is not mine).

Allah wants two things from us - our worship and our faith.

Our faith he wants for our own sake because only through fate
we can have a good life, a life of abundance and peace and also
be in the beauty of the afterlife.

Our worship he also wants for us. Allah knows the human nature
and knows that we do not like to get things for free. Look at the
abundance around you, the water, the food, the bed you sleep
in. All this we get for free. If we would truly understand this it
would be very hard. Especially for non-believers. Therefore, he
asked us to worship, to give him the only thing we can truly give
from ourselves - prayers.

 

[Gabriel Ibn Yus]

By the way, some places in the world do not have peace. This would for sure change when everybody would turn into believers and accept the true way.