Why have we become such a disgrace that we dotn even carry out allahs punishment

[Salahudeen]

Are you telling me if some 1 mocked the prophet pbuh infront of you in a non islamic country where there's no shari'a, you'd just kill them ? is that what you're saying? is that what you're promoting here? I'm abit unclear about what you're trying to get at.

well is the above what you're saying?? I actually knew a boy at school who used to mock the prophet pbuh, I befriended him and told him the truth regarding the prophet pbuh and over time his heart softened and he accepted Islam. I dread to think what would've happened if he met you, maybe he would be lying in a grave somewhere allah hu alam.

 

[quranalim]

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/22809

I read it, and where does it say Muslim's who are not living under shari'a should carry out these punishments? I see the fatwa, and the sheikh is out lining the shari punishment for the 1 who mocks the prophet pbuh. where does he say Muslim's should do this themselves living in non Muslim lands where there's no sharia?

as far as I understood it that entire article was based upon the assumption you're living under sharia law. I didn't see any mention of those who live in non muslim lands where there's no sharia.

i am gettign the feeling that you think islam is against punishing somone who mocks the prophet? without a leader.


i have already mentioned several hadith where people excuted those who mocked the prophet instantly without even seeking the permission of anyone. they took it in their own hands to carry out this act and became vigalantes. in many other cases this would be forbidden, but the hadith prove that this case is an exception

the fair justice is allah's justice, not the ones in non-muslim land...although some non-muslim land follow parts of shariah

 

[quranalim]

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/22809

You're quoting hadith but all the hadith are in the time of the prophet pbuh when there was an Islamic state and sharia was being implemented. show me a hadith that shows Muslim's carrying out the punishment of Allah whilst living in a non Muslim land under kuffar rulers. That will hold weight as that would be similar to our situation. But the hadith you're quoting were at the time of the Islamic state under sharia law.

so show me where the punishment of Allah was carried out under a non muslim ruler in a foreign land against the laws of that country and the prophet pbuh gave approval. I'm interested to know if such a hadith exists.

here are hadith relating to executions of those who mocked the prophet and sided with enemies

Sunnan Abu Dawud 38:4348, Sunnan Abu Dawud 38:4361, Sunan AbuDawud 2686, .Sahih al-Bukhari 3:45:687, .Sahih al-Bukhari 3:45:687, .Sahih al-Bukhari 3:45:687, Sahih al-Bukhari 5:59:370, Sahih al-Bukhari 5:59:371, Sunnan Abu Dawud 38:4346, Sahih al-Bukhari 5:59:582, Sunnan Abu Dawud 14:2678

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace be upon him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.

Abu Dawud 38:4349

Brother, the above hadith indicates that the punishment was carried out by a vigilante on a non-muslim "jew"

 

[quranalim]

Furthermoe brother, i would like to tell you that their will be many instances when even muslim countries will nto implement the shariah, and their is no choice but to take things in your own hands

Farag Foda was a egyptia who use to mock Muhammad (saw), yet egypt government did nothing. and was assisinated by muslims

An Al-Azhar University scholar, Mohammed al-Ghazali, a witness before the court, declared it was not wrong to kill a foe of Islam. Al-Ghazali said:

"The killing of Farag Foda was in fact the implementation of the punishment against an apostate which the imam (the Islamic leader) has failed to implement (undertake)."

i hope you understand the cases regardign taking matters to your own hands. these days even muslim countries dont follow shariah.

 

[Billal-A]

Assalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu,

Akhi "quranalim" without a doubt the rulings are clear regarding an individual be it Muslim or non-Muslim who slanders and speaks ill of the Prophet pbuh that he should be killed. Alhamdulillah. But to take that hadd punishments legislated in sharee'ah are to be applied in lands of kufr is not from among the scholarly opinions we have found. You have, alhamdulillah quoted from the very beneficial site Islam Q&A in referring to the ahaadeeth proving this however failed to address the issue of the following:

1. Who applies the hadd punishment?
2. What about when the act is carried out in a land that is not governed by sharee'ah?

I believe the following link from the same website addresses adequately both of these points alhamdulillah.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/12461

If a person commits a crime which deserves a hadd punishment in a land that is not ruled according to that which Allaah has revealed, what is to be done?

If a Muslim commits a crime which deserves a hadd punishment, such as zina (adultery), and he wants to purify himself by having the hadd punishment carried out on him, but his government does not rule according to that which Allaah has revealed, what should he do? If he asks some of his relatives or friends to carry out the hadd punishment on him, is that correct, and will his sins be forgiven?.


Praise be to Allaah.

The scholars are unanimously agreed that the hadd punishment can only be carried out by the imam (Islamic ruler) or his deputy. This is in the people’s interests and is for the protection of their soul, their wealth and their honour. The imam is able to carry it out because of the power and authority he has, which make the people obey him, and because no one can accuse the imam of being biased or negligent in carrying out the hadd punishments. Thus the imam is able to carry out the hudood punishments in the proper manner so that the shar’i goals will certainly be achieved.

Al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah, 17/145.

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 7/21:

The hadd punishments can only be carried out by a Muslim ruler or one who takes the place of the ruler. It is not permissible for individual Muslims to carry out the hadd punishments because of the chaos and fitnah (tribulation) to which that will lead.”

It also says (21/5-6):

No one can carry out the hadd punishments except the Muslim ruler or his deputy, in order to maintain order and prevent anyone from transgressing against others, and to protect against injustice. And the sinner has to pray for forgiveness and repent to Allaah and do a lot of good deeds. If he is sincere in his repentance towards Allaah, Allaah will accept his repentance and forgive Him by His grace and kindness. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And those who invoke not any other ilaah (god) along with Allaah, nor kill such person as Allaah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse and whoever does this shall receive the punishment.

69. The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace;

70. Except those who repent and believe (in Islamic Monotheism), and do righteous deeds; for those, Allaah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allaah is Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Furqaan 25:67-70]

“And verily, I am indeed forgiving to him who repents, believes (in My Oneness, and associates none in worship with Me) and does righteous good deeds, and then remains constant in doing them (till his death)”

[Ta-Ha 20:82]

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Islam erases whatever came before it, and repentance erases whatever came before it.”.

 

[Billal-A]

Assalaamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu,

After having addressed the above cited issues using scholarly opinion, I just wanted to briefly speak about some of the issues I felt concerned about during the review of this post.

Firstly, may Allaah accept the efforts of all our Muslim brothers and sisters who do not and will not tolerate abuse towards our Noble Messenger Muhammad sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam, may Allaah allow you all to be forgiven for your gheerah for the beloved status of our dear Nabi may Allaah give him a praised platform ameen.

That being said we need to understand a few key issues:

1. The deen is always about balance and prioritising - When we commit to Islaam we do it in a way that is both obligatory and suitable for a healthy middle path, not going into extremes, nor becoming too lax or lenient. The sharee'ah is the threshold for justice and mercy, as well as the standard by which we are moderate. Whatever it commands is to be followed and whatever it prohibits is to be left. Going beyond the limits of the sharee'ah is extremism and falling short of its obligations is equally extreme.

- Why is it that many times we will see specific controversial issues being discussed like this and so many of us are caught up in it but when it comes to matters that are even greater they are neglected? Why is it that we are not so outspoken regarding shirk and bid'ah prevalent amongst our relatives, friends and local communities? Look at drug abuse, crimes, zina, music amongst the Muslims today, why are we not at the forefront of calling them to guidance and speaking in condemnation of these things that directly affect our very living and Islamic obligations? Whenever we call to good we call to it completely and whenever we forbid from evil we do so condemning every evil and every vice we see.

"O you who have believed, enter into Islaam completely [and perfectly] and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy." [Al-Baqarah: 208]

2. We always do what is in our capabilities and there is no blame upon us for something not within our realms of action. Rasulullah sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam advised us so beautifully that whenever we see a munkar we stop it with our limbs, if this is too much, then with speech and if not able to, then to think of it as vice in our hearts and that this is the lowest level of eemaan.

Allaah has said: "Allaah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity." [Al-Baqarah: 286]

The point here is what is our responsibility when dealing with such a scenario where various acts are done and the hadd ruling and prescribed punishments are not being implemented? Our role is simple yet we over complicate it, we do whatever we can in our capacity with knowledge, foresight and wisdom. We do not recline from Qur'an and Sunnah yet we do not go beyond our limits.

I think the following statement explains our stance here:

"If a Muslim hears a Christian or anyone else defaming the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) he has to denounce him in strong terms. It is permissible to insult that person because he is the one who started it. How can we not stand up the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)? It is also obligatory to report him to the authorities who can carry out the punishment on him. If there is no one who can carry out the hadd punishment of Allaah and stand up for the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) then the Muslim has to do whatever he can, so long as that will not lead to further mischief and harm against other people. But if a Muslim hears a kaafir defaming the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and he keeps quiet and does not respond for fear that this person may then defame him even more, this is mistaken thinking. With regard to the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allaah, lest they insult Allaah wrongfully without knowledge”

[al-An’aam 6:108],

this does not apply in cases where they defame Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) first. Rather what is meant is that it is forbidden to insult the gods of the mushrikeen first, lest they insult Allaah out of ignorance and enmity on their part. But if they insult Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) first, then we must respond and punish them so as deter them from their kufr and enmity. If we leave the kuffaar and atheists to say whatever they want without denouncing it or punishing them, great mischief will result, which is something that these kuffaar love. No attention should be paid to the one who says that insulting or responding to insults will make him more stubborn. The Muslim has to have a sense of protective jealousy and get angry for the sake of Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Whoever hears the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) being insulted and does not feel any protective jealousy or get angry is not a true believer – we seek refuge with Allaah from humility, kufr and obeying the Shaytaan. And Allaah knows best."

Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Barraak, Majallat al-Da’wah, Muharram, issue no. 1933.

 

[Billal-A]

Some points to also consider regarding the point of some not seeking permission of Rasulullah sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam before doing the act:

1. The incident concerning Jundub radhiallaahu anhu and the magician: As we know, Magic [not tricks but proper sorcery] is kufr al akbar and takes a person outside of Islaam. A person known among the people would remove his head and place it back via sorcery and became popular by it. Jundub was told about this man and attended one of his public events. When the man removed his head and placed it back, Jundub got up and cut his head clean off saying "place your head back now if you are able!". Jundub was arrested and the governor wrote to Caliph Uthmaan [radhiallahu anhu] concerning the matter. Uthmaan [ra] replied saying that what Jundub did was the hadd for a magician and was the correct punishment for such a person but Jundub's executing the hadd without permission from the ruler was INCORRECT.

2. The disagreement between 'Ali [radhiallaahu anhu] and Mu'aawiyah [radhiallaahu anhu] was regarding the executors of Uthmaan [ra]. Mu'aawiyah and those who agreed with him wanted to bring the killers of Uthmaan to justice before Caliphate was established to 'Ali. 'Ali disagreed with this holding that the issue of dealing with the killers of Uthmaan required jurisdiction, court and systematic application of the punishment, which mandates that the caliphate be established first. We know from the narrations concerning this that 'Ali was of the correct opinion [May Allaah reward Mu'awiyah for his ijtihaad and zeal to bring the oppressors to justice, ameen]. Point here is: 'Ali was right, in order to execute the killers it needed to be done after establishing caliphate and NOT OUTSIDE OF IT.

I hope things are clear for everyone, Insha'Allaah.

:s

 

[cat eyes]

i am gettign the feeling that you think islam is against punishing somone who mocks the prophet? without a leader.


i have already mentioned several hadith where people excuted those who mocked the prophet instantly without even seeking the permission of anyone. they took it in their own hands to carry out this act and became vigalantes. in many other cases this would be forbidden, but the hadith prove that this case is an exception

the fair justice is allah's justice, not the ones in non-muslim land...although some non-muslim land follow parts of shariah

i am not painting my own picture of what i want islam to BE! i take my fatwas from reliable scholars and i at least try to understand them not like you!

Astaghfirullah So you are basically saying that you would go up and kill a kafir person in a kafir land if you

bumped in to a silly teenager and he started calling our beloved prophet (saw) what ever names so you

would not give him at least a chance to give him some type of dawah?? i cant believe what im reading really. i know this is not the islam i reverted to anyway. i don't know what islam you made for yourself

we cannot carry out punishments by ourselves. this is clearly murder. we cant and MUST not take the law into our own hands no matter what.

People deserve chances. the prophet mohammad (saw) was always ready to give dawah even to the most angry person

It depends on so some many things this why we cannot be carrying out crimes. this is best left in the hands of knowledgble scholars in shariah state

We are no longer living in the time of the prophet (saw) :wa:

 

[Salahudeen]

akhi bilal's post dealt with the issue a fatwa from the same site saying it's not permissable for anyone to carry out punishments of Allah except for the leader and his general.

 

[أبو سليمان عمر]

akhi quranalim you said somthing real nice early lets see what scholars have to say about it and as far as i know that it is not premissable to carry out a punishment yourself if you live in a muslim country let alone a kufar country

 

[DuncG]

Quranalim,

Given that it is asserted that the punishment for insulting the Prophet is death, can you describe the reasoning that leads to the conclusion that this punishment is just?

As far as I can see, justice is the apportioning of punishment that is a fair reflection of the severity of the crime. So, to warrant the death penalty you would have to do something at least as severe as murder. (Perhaps you don't agree with this description of justice, in which case I'd like to hear your definition and how it relates to this situation.) I cannot, at present, see how an insult could justifiably warrant the punishment of death - killing generates far more suffering than insult or mockery does. There is a saying, after all, that goes "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me". Essentially, anything spoken can never be as bad as physical violence, including killing.

It appears that you disagree with this reasoning, so I'd very much like to know how you reached the conclusion that death is a just punishment for mockery. Thanks in advance for any response you can give.

 

[Billal-A]

Assalamu alaykum,

@cats eyes:

I think theres two extremes being played out here. The first extreme is with people assuming that Sharee'ah allows them to implement hadd punishments without the need for an Islamic state/rulership and permission from it and the second extreme being the "turn the cheek" approach.

Islaam in these issues is comprised of two delicate balances:

1. The balance between allegiance to Allaah and his messenger and mercy and forgiveness - What I mean by this is that there is always a limit to what can be forgiven and pardoned from the actions of mankind. Not everything was overlooked by the Prophet [saws] and nor was he strict on everything. The Prophet [saws] was amazing in both his unmeasurable compassion to others but also in his stance against all things evil and abominable.

- Some examples of the Prophet [saws] reprimanding/condemning: a person who was wearing a gold bracelet, the Prophet [saws] saw it and his face changed colour and he did not speak to the person until they had disposed of it; when a Muhaajir and Ansaari got into an argument, they both called out "O Muhaajiroon, come!" and "O Ansaar, come!" and the Prophet [saws] became enraged by it and chastised them; a group of people came to swear allegiance to the Prophet [saws], he accepted all of them but one and said he [saws] would not accept the pledge until the man removes the amulet he is wearing; the incident of a Sahaabi in battle executing a Jewish man who was about to be killed but started proclaiming the shahaadah, the Sahaabi believed he was being insincere due to being shown the sword but Rasulullah [saws] said: "Did you open up his heart?" and then looked to the heavens and said "I am free from what he has done" thrice; when his [saws] daughter was attacked and had a miscarriage also dying from the wound, he [saws] ordered all the people involved to be burnt alive [then told its only Allaah who burns by Fire] later ordering execution by the sword; when the Prophet [saws] was praying the kuffaar threw camels intestines on his back and he made du'aa against all of the men involved in severe words.

- Some examples of mercy: the man who was urinating in the Masjid, the Prophet [saws] waited for him to come and be seated and nicely advised of the sanctity of the masjid which moved the man to tears; a man came and started choking the Prophet [saws], leaving a mark on his neck asking for wealth, the Prophet [saws] gave it with a smile!; Taa'if [we all know how amazing that was]; leaving the man who called him [saws] unjust due to the implications of killing him: "Muhammad kills his companions".


2. Balance between da'wah and standing up for what we believe in - Some things are better left not discussed because perchance the ignorant ones may not understand it and it may confuse or distance them from accepting Islaam. Just like with the companions, the Qur'aan was revealed in piecemeal in order "strengthen their hearts thereby" and we should also evaluate the person we give da'wah to in order to advise them with wisdom and what would be beneficial for thier understanding of Islaam [eg talking about status of Jesus and Mary in Islam, to a person who is an ardent Christian etc].

- On the other hand, we cannot dilute something simply because of this: ie somebody asks us regarding zinaa and its place in Islaam, we cannot say "dont worry about it" or "its fine" in an attempt to leave it till later. Islaam has no small print if someone asks about Islamic position on music, clubbing, dress code, Jihaad, etc we always answer based on the Qur'aan and sunnah with wisdom. So many times we hear of people who were not advised of certain issues and then came to deen and were disparaged by it. We cannot shy away from dealing with certain questions in the name of "da'wah".

A beautiful quote:

"We should strive to call these people, for although we look at them through a lens of hatred and resentment, we also look at them with compassion, for soon they will die and will be among the people of Hell, if they die in this state; so we should call them to Islam and salvation, out of mercy and compassion towards them." [Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al Munajjid, Islam Q&A]

Good sources to take from on these issues:

- "how to get a shahaadah in 10 minutes" (audio): Ustaad Kamal al Makki
- "The Prophets Method in Correcting Mistakes" (e-book): Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al Munajjid
- "Advice of the Callers to Allah" (e-book): "Shaykh Abdullaah ibn Abdul-Aziz ibn Baaz

May Allaah assist in our efforts ameen.

 

[aamirsaab]

The real disgrace is the way our people have turned out. Forget the drawings for a moment and have a gander at muslims as a collective. Especially our homecountries that are filled with unfathomable evil.

Noone wants to get gung-ho about our plentiful corrupt politicians, but the artist of a drawing of the prophet, yeah we'll kick his ass!

Bigger fish to fry guys.

 

[cat eyes]

Assalamu alaykum,

@cats eyes:

I think theres two extremes being played out here. The first extreme is with people assuming that Sharee'ah allows them to implement hadd punishments without the need for an Islamic state/rulership and permission from it and the second extreme being the "turn the cheek" approach.

Islaam in these issues is comprised of two delicate balances:

1. The balance between allegiance to Allaah and his messenger and mercy and forgiveness - What I mean by this is that there is always a limit to what can be forgiven and pardoned from the actions of mankind. Not everything was overlooked by the Prophet [saws] and nor was he strict on everything. The Prophet [saws] was amazing in both his unmeasurable compassion to others but also in his stance against all things evil and abominable.

- Some examples of the Prophet [saws] reprimanding/condemning: a person who was wearing a gold bracelet, the Prophet [saws] saw it and his face changed colour and he did not speak to the person until they had disposed of it; when a Muhaajir and Ansaari got into an argument, they both called out "O Muhaajiroon, come!" and "O Ansaar, come!" and the Prophet [saws] became enraged by it and chastised them; a group of people came to swear allegiance to the Prophet [saws], he accepted all of them but one and said he [saws] would not accept the pledge until the man removes the amulet he is wearing; the incident of a Sahaabi in battle executing a Jewish man who was about to be killed but started proclaiming the shahaadah, the Sahaabi believed he was being insincere due to being shown the sword but Rasulullah [saws] said: "Did you open up his heart?" and then looked to the heavens and said "I am free from what he has done" thrice; when his [saws] daughter was attacked and had a miscarriage also dying from the wound, he [saws] ordered all the people involved to be burnt alive [then told its only Allaah who burns by Fire] later ordering execution by the sword; when the Prophet [saws] was praying the kuffaar threw camels intestines on his back and he made du'aa against all of the men involved in severe words.

- Some examples of mercy: the man who was urinating in the Masjid, the Prophet [saws] waited for him to come and be seated and nicely advised of the sanctity of the masjid which moved the man to tears; a man came and started choking the Prophet [saws], leaving a mark on his neck asking for wealth, the Prophet [saws] gave it with a smile!; Taa'if [we all know how amazing that was]; leaving the man who called him [saws] unjust due to the implications of killing him: "Muhammad kills his companions".


2. Balance between da'wah and standing up for what we believe in - Some things are better left not discussed because perchance the ignorant ones may not understand it and it may confuse or distance them from accepting Islaam. Just like with the companions, the Qur'aan was revealed in piecemeal in order "strengthen their hearts thereby" and we should also evaluate the person we give da'wah to in order to advise them with wisdom and what would be beneficial for thier understanding of Islaam [eg talking about status of Jesus and Mary in Islam, to a person who is an ardent Christian etc].

- On the other hand, we cannot dilute something simply because of this: ie somebody asks us regarding zinaa and its place in Islaam, we cannot say "dont worry about it" or "its fine" in an attempt to leave it till later. Islaam has no small print if someone asks about Islamic position on music, clubbing, dress code, Jihaad, etc we always answer based on the Qur'aan and sunnah with wisdom. So many times we hear of people who were not advised of certain issues and then came to deen and were disparaged by it. We cannot shy away from dealing with certain questions in the name of "da'wah".

A beautiful quote:

"We should strive to call these people, for although we look at them through a lens of hatred and resentment, we also look at them with compassion, for soon they will die and will be among the people of Hell, if they die in this state; so we should call them to Islam and salvation, out of mercy and compassion towards them." [Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al Munajjid, Islam Q&A]

Good sources to take from on these issues:

- "how to get a shahaadah in 10 minutes" (audio): Ustaad Kamal al Makki
- "The Prophets Method in Correcting Mistakes" (e-book): Shaykh Muhammad Saalih al Munajjid
- "Advice of the Callers to Allah" (e-book): "Shaykh Abdullaah ibn Abdul-Aziz ibn Baaz

May Allaah assist in our efforts ameen.

The only extreme is he believes we can take shariah in to our own dangerous hands! where did i say that no punishment should not be carried out?... it should be but according to shariah only.
There is so many things even then that has to be taken in to account for example that teacher in saudi who was wrongly accused for mocking the prophet (saw) by calling a teddy after him and they threw that poor woman in prison but she was wrongly accused. what the hell she must think of islam now huh?? that people are so quick in the muslim world to jump to murder. can you give me any answer for this? was this right? why did not any one go up to her and say to her '' you know its wrong to call a teddy after the prophet (saw)'' but nobody had the decency to tell her. so tell me who is being extreme here? im certainly not being extreme.

we already have black sheep muslims blowing up non muslims. is there a punishment for these assholes huh??? committing murder in the name of islam.

Why dont we look at our own selves. we need dawah i think more then anyone because it makes me so hell angry and sad and whole load of emotions to see the ummah the way it is

 

[Billal-A]

The only extreme is he believes we can take shariah in to our own dangerous hands! where did i say that no punishment should not be carried out?... it should be but according to shariah only.
There is so many things even then that has to be taken in to account for example that teacher in saudi who was wrongly accused for mocking the prophet (saw) by calling a teddy after him and they threw that poor woman in prison but she was wrongly accused. what the hell she must think of islam now huh?? that people are so quick in the muslim world to jump to murder. can you give me any answer for this? was this right? why did not any one go up to her and say to her '' you know its wrong to call a teddy after the prophet (saw)'' but nobody had the decency to tell her. so tell me who is being extreme here? im certainly not being extreme.

we already have black sheep muslims blowing up non muslims. is there a punishment for these assholes huh??? committing murder in the name of islam.

Why dont we look at our own selves. we need dawah i think more then anyone because it makes me so hell angry and sad and whole load of emotions to see the ummah the way it is

Assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullaah,

Well unfortunately we are not talking about Muslims actions as we know they always fall short. Rather we are discussing the remedy and that is to follow Islaam in the Middle Path. I never directed anything to you and never meant to regarding sharee'ah just talking about the two general extremes we see.

As far as what you have said is concerned:

1. Its haraam to accuse without proof and questioning - so the case of the woman who named the teddy bear Muhammad, needed to be asked what she intended by it and also the reasoning for it cant only be "she done this" without asking the individual. There is plenty of basis of this: one example being Daawood alayhis salaam who judged in a case without looking into both sides of the story, he made a sajdah of tawbah as felt guilty of a severe injustice.

2. We cant let our emotions rule our mind - there is no need to use foul language regarding those who are STILL our brothers and sisters in the deen. Committing suicide bombings does not take you outside the fold of Islaam, nor does killing innocent people, although a grave sin. Rather than abusing them we should be making dua for their guidance and condemning the act. A part of our aqeedah is to have love for those who are under the kalimah of Islaam, and hating those who are not.

3. Anyone who kills an innocent person is indeed wrong and we see the aayah for those who kill ONE innocent person is as though they have killed all of mankind. As long as those non-Muslims are innocent [ie non combatants, elderly, women and children etc] then their blood is inviolable. On the other hand we cant claim everyone is innocent, eg soldiers in Iraaq and Afghanistan.

4. Are we as vocal about the war on Iraaq, Afghanistan and the constant evil oppression of Palestine. To this day there have been numerous lives taken, women and children massacred, which is the REASON behind so many suicide attacks etc even being carried out. So lets look at the reasons behind the problems in order to deal with it from the root.

5. The ummah is the way it is because of many reasons: lack of understanding of Islaam, neglecting tawheed and the sunnah, neglecting Jihaad, deeply involved in sins. So its not just those bombers who are causing so many issues, its the negligence of the ummah as a whole. Abu Bakr did advise us to never let go of Jihaad and in so many ways its true.

May Allaah guide us all. Ameen.

 

[cat eyes]

so your telling me i don't have a right to be angry that black sheep muslims are blowing up innocent women and you still have the nerve to call these people muslims. muslims don't go around killing people

and children? maybe if i did not let my emotions get the better of me i would not be human id be stone cold


hearted evil person. so what your asking me to do is impossible because i cannot sit back and watch my own

brothers and sisters being wrongly harrassed and abused on the streets because of one black sheep we all bloody have to suffer...

If some one kills a human its like he has killed the whole of humanity.

because of these so called muslims thousands maybe you can say millions have chosen not to revert to islam because they don't want to be called a terrorist. that is millions of people who will not be saved from the helfire and you expect me not to let my emotions take over and not to lose sleep over it?

maybe when my sister or brother joins you can ask her why she wont revert and then maybe you will feel the anger i feel

im not saying anymore on the matter.

salaam

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Sis just to say something about why so many people do not revert to Islam because of the "so called Muslims." Is it really an excuse? On the other side you will have people reverting regardless of what they see or is shown because for one their hearts are sincere and that Allah guides whomever He Wills and that's the main thing. Yes we have a job to tell others about Islam, inviting them in ways that are better but even then we don't guide them, Allah does. There are loads of people who regardless of seeing or knowing the negativity portrayed about Islam or Muslims for that matter, use their brains and inquire about it. We don't know their hearts so really we can't say anything but from what I've noticed the ones that are truly sincere will embrace no matter what. That's just how I see it. Allahu Alam if it's right.

 

[cat eyes]

deleted...........................

 

[quranalim]

Of course it would be better to have a muslim leader....and a just ruler

However....The people who claim that you can only punish somone i.e a "apostate" ONLY with the permission of a leader are only making excuses. their are already many hadiith where the sahaba took it into their own hands to carry out a punishment, without the permission of an imam or the prophet.

"He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. [Sahih Bukhari 9:84:58]

Once Muadh paid a visit to Abu Musa and saw a chained man. Muadh asked, "What is this?" Abu Musa said, "(He was) a Jew who embraced Islam and has now turned apostate." Muadh said, "I will surely chop off his neck!" [Bukhari 5:59:632]

in regards to carrying out a punishment in non-muslim land, their is a difference however.

But if no-one even implements the shariah or accepts it....but their is little choice but to take thigns into your own hands.

Muhammad al Ghazali said about farag Foda (who used to write satire about the prophet)

"The killing of Farag Foda was in fact the implementation of the punishment against an apostate which the imam (the Islamic leader) has failed to implement (undertake)."

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Sis, no offense but do you have this habit of putting words in peoples mouth? I like to avoid arguing with other Muslims but seriously its annoying! I never said your sister is making up excuses, I'm just telling you how I see it. I mentioned three things, those who inquire about it and not let things or reasons get in their way or that they are truly sincere and that at the end of the day Allah Guides. I made no mention of your sister nor commented on it so please refrain. JazakAllah Khair

BTW, I'm only talking about that bit in your post nothing else so please don't drag it out elsewhere