Wrong to attack non-Muslims

[sister herb]

Just curious but do some people always want Muslims to condemn every bad thing another Muslim has done openly? Can there not be an assumption that we already do not approve of these actions?

I have though same many times. I think in this thread too muslims have already told several times what is opinion of them (and Islam in general) about bad things what some individuals may have done. Also in general it sometimes seems that we as muslims should spend all of our time to condemn any wrong actions what muslims may have done in anywhere in this world (or what some non-muslims claim they have done).

But if some muslims ask every non-muslims (like christians or jews) condemn acts what some christians or jews have made, answer will always be: "it is not religion what made them behave so". What if some muslim commits wrong things? Why some non-muslims at the first start to claim reason is "because he/she is muslim".

 

[Zafran]

The response to this article is exactly what annoys people, instead of acknowledging this sort of attitude is a problem, it's immediately it's twisted round so others are to blame. You can say it's the bravado of youngsters (I personally never made death threats against people at that age), but they actually established themselves as a Muslim defence group and what happens when they get older? Do their views take a more radical turn? It's just as serious as if a thread appeared saying young Muslims had been getting death threats.

They may not represent the majority of Muslims, but their actions can still have impact.

and??? theres a non muslim there as well what do you want all non muslims to do about that???

By the way its from the daily mail - can you get any more racist newspaper then that? anybody who lives in the UK knows what the daily mail is about.

 

[Grace Seeker]

But if some muslims ask every non-muslims (like christians or jews) condemn acts what some christians or jews have made, answer will always be: "it is not religion what made them behave so". What if some muslim commits wrong things? Why some non-muslims at the first start to claim reason is "because he/she is muslim".

How true that you cannot spend all of your time condemning every act by a Muslim that runs contrary to the teachings of Islam. My goodness, you would hardly have time for anything else -- as would every religion in trying to self-regulate its adherents. And we non-Muslims are wrong when we ask for that.

But I do think we are right to ask for some level of consistency:

• that Muslims don't dance in the streets celebrating when non-Muslims are attacked;
• that devout Muslims don't excuse other Muslims who perpetrate unIslamic acts while clainming to do so in the name of Allah; and
• that when Muslims misuse the teachings of Islam to non-Islamic ends those who see these things as not being truly representative of Islam should continue to deny and repudiate them both face-to-face when these persons are personally known to them, and in the media when such an event is large enough to receive media attention.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Can there not be an assumption that we already do not approve of these actions?

I wish that were the case.

But given the image cultivated by and for Islam in recent times, it just isn't.

Blunt and somewhat unfair, I know, but it is the truth. You have a serious PR problem and it is naive and blind to not see that. Perhaps prior to 9/11 and the London subway bombings and all that came after you could have relied on the assumption you speak of, but not today. These events put the spotlight on Islam in a negative light (which prior to these events was hated by some but known to relatively few in the west, and to most of us was just a remote somewhat irrelevant religion like Sikhism or Hinduism. Mohammed Ali was muslim I believe? I don't think many cared).

Once Islam was in the spotlight, yes the western media did villify it and yes there are people out there who are blindly following that media and who hate Islam and muslims, never actually having interacted with them. These are mostly conservative Christians, the tea party type, those who went visceral at the "9/11 mosque", which was ridiculous. These people are your simple bigots.

Others in the west saw this and instincitvely defended Islam, simply becuase it looked like it was being blindly and unfairly attacked by these people. I am one. I met Skavau (also on this board) on Paltalk in the social issues section while I was doing that. I, and others like me, actually went to the effort of going to places like that, and here, and other places around the internet and in real life communities to discover what exactly Islam is and who muslims are and if we can co-exist and if we should defend them from these crazies (the crowd in the paragraph above).

In doing so, some of us actually became muslims. So there is a plus for you. Others of us however encountered more hateful muslims than expected, and discovered distasteful ideologies within Islam that even the friendlier muslims do not oppose, or at least not vocally. Things like homosexuals and apostates deserving death. It is hard to truly respect a religion that considers it just for you to suffer in hellfire for not adopting it (this applies to Christianity too).

We also encounter a culture within Islam that is just as tribal as the people we see attacking it. Muslims siding with muslims, just because they are muslims, even when they are wrong. "Brothers" and "sisters" vs "Kafirs". The us vs them mentality that we looked to defend muslims from turns out to be just as propped up by muslim communities themselves.

It is rare that I have seen people like the gentleman in this thread I responded to above with such a live and let live attitude, which is why I replied to him in an encouraging and friendly manner. I would LIKE the assumption you speak of to be one that we would have of people when we learn they call themselves muslims and follow Islam, but it will take some doing to get there. More people like this gentleman I was replying to is a good start.

 

[Pygoscelis]

What if some muslim commits wrong things? Why some non-muslims at the first start to claim reason is "because he/she is muslim".

It is unfair to assume religion was teh cause when knowing nothing else about the situation. You're right, it could be something completely unrelated to the religion of the person. But it is perfectly fair to highlight the religion when the person proudly states the religion to be the cause or justification, which happens quite often.

 

[Pygoscelis]

[*]that devout Muslims don't excuse other Muslims who perpetrate unIslamic acts while clainming to do so in the name of Allah; and
[*]that when Muslims misuse the teachings of Islam to non-Islamic ends those who see these things as not being truly representative of Islam should continue to deny and repudiate them both face-to-face when these persons are personally known to them, and in the media when such an event is large enough to receive media attention.

^ This

You need not spend much time or effort condemning radical muslims, but you do need to refrain from sheltering them, excusing them, enabling them, justifying them, and calling them "brothers". And when really big tings happen that draw major media attention, you should certainly be mindful of your collective image. The best example of this I can think of is the "9/11 mosque" outrage and how well the muslim people involved handled it. The crazy guy who was threatening to burn Qurans etc. This was handled very well by a number of people in various muslim communities, calmy, and taking the moral high road. Contrast that to the rioting over cartoons.

 

[LauraS]

Last time I checked, Woodrow did not twist the article to blame others. He has an issue with how the article is presented. There is nothing wrong with pointing that out. Ironically, it appears to me you twisted Woodrow's comment...

Just curious but do some people always want Muslims to condemn every bad thing another Muslim has done openly? Can there not be an assumption that we already do not approve of these actions?

I wasn't even talking about Woodrow.


Zafran- The non-Muslim girl is just as much as in the wrong as the Muslim boys. My point is as soon as this was posted everyone immediately went onto the defensive, blaming the media instead of condemning the actions of the individuals.

It's not that Muslims should be expected to just sit there saying so and son shouldn't have done that, that was wrong, like parrots. Just, whenever incidents crop up that show Muslims in a bad light actually acknowledge it instead of looking somewhere else to put the blame.

Pycosgelis (possible sp) pretty much sums it up.

 

[جوري]

whenever incidents crop up that show Muslims in a bad light actually acknowledge it instead of looking somewhere else to put the blame.

we don't believe in trickle down sins in the Muslim world.. if we did, we'd hold each western accountable for a laundry list and a history filled with hatred, rape, pillaging, colonialism, mass graves and endless wars. People usually react to an action not simply out of whimsy.. perhaps it is prudent to study what it is that causes folks to act out in such a manner you know a 'root cause analysis' instead of requesting that a billion and a half other should 'acknowledge it'

funny stuff

 

[GuestFellow]

I wasn't even talking about Woodrow.

Then who? Or was it a general statement. I assumed it was Woodrow since he was the first to respond to the article.

The non-Muslim girl is just as much as in the wrong as the Muslim boys. My point is as soon as this was posted everyone immediately went onto the defensive, blaming the media instead of condemning the actions of the individuals.

I agree the girl was just as bad as the boys. However, the media was blamed for a different issue.

I wish that were the case. But given the image cultivated by and for Islam in recent times, it just isn't. Blunt and somewhat unfair, I know, but it is the truth. You have a serious PR problem and it is naive and blind to not see that.

Yes, I am aware Muslims have failed to develop public relations skills. Karen Armstrong has highlighted this issue too. However, some Muslims have attempted to improve the Muslim community image and this cannot be denied either.

It is hard to truly respect a religion that considers it just for you to suffer in hellfire for not adopting it (this applies to Christianity too).

Personally, I am not asking for respect. Just not sweeping generalisations.

We also encounter a culture within Islam that is just as tribal as the people we see attacking it. Muslims siding with muslims, just because they are muslims, even when they are wrong. "Brothers" and "sisters" vs "Kafirs". The us vs them mentality that we looked to defend muslims from turns out to be just as propped up by muslim communities themselves.

I agree with you there. There are Muslims who have problems with other Muslims too. :

It is rare that I have seen people like the gentleman in this thread I responded to above with such a live and let live attitude, which is why I replied to him in an encouraging and friendly manner. I would LIKE the assumption you speak of to be one that we would have of people when we learn they call themselves muslims and follow Islam, but it will take some doing to get there. More people like this gentleman I was replying to is a good start.

Rashad? He is always cheerful. XD

I still doubt developing good public relation skills will significantly improve the image of Muslims. There are conflicts involving Muslim countries and until they are resolved, I doubt much will change.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Personally, I am not asking for respect. Just not sweeping generalisations.

I don't blame you at all for seeking this. As a general rule, I too hate sweeping generalizations or any other form of stereotype.

One of the reasons that I joined this forum years ago, was to find and provide credible evidence in written form from Muslims themselves of the true nature of Islam to some of my Christian friends who were engaged in what I saw as stereotypical portrayals of Islam. I knew those generalizations that they were engaged in where not indicative of Islam because they reflected not a single Muslim that I knew personally. And at that time I was occassionally attending a mosque with my daughter, so I did indeed have regular contact with quite a number of Muslims.

Here is the sad thing. If I were to know Islam based soley on the interactions I have had with Muslims on this board, and not with those whom I know in personal and real life, I would say that the stereotype proves itself more true than false. Again, I don't say that all of Islam is that way. I certainly don't say that every individual here is that way, I could easily recite a dozen or more names that run counter to the generalization. But sadly I learned that while the generalization should never be assumed to be true of any given individual, as the public image of Islam is not universally true, that there actually is some reality behind the view of Islam that has been popularized in the western media. Muslims generally will aver to other Muslims over and against non-Muslims regardless the attitudes expressed by their fellow Muslim.

When there is a conflict between the goals or agendas of two persons and one of them is a Muslim and one of them is not. Other Muslims not invovled in the conflict generally don't seem to view the conflict in terms the issues themselves, but in terms of being supportive or non-supportive of a brother or sister in the faith.

You may disagree that this is an expression of reality. You may argue that what I say is untrue. And you may indeed be more right than I. But what you still need to hear is that these were not views that I came to this board holding, nor were my views developed as a result of the influence of western media, but rather this view that I have expressed is a direct result of my time on LI and the general tenor of what I have read here.

It is only because of my close personal relationships with Muslim friends and family in real life, that I have not fully adopted the above view. Fortunately, in every day life, Muslims remain among the nicest people I meet.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Grace Seeker, if you think of the behavior at message boards as any respresentation of any group, there is something seriously wrong with you. Think about it this way: how easily would you sleep if aliens used as their primary resource in a survey of how to judge earthlings samplings of Youtube commenters on a few videos?

You'll notice the non-Muslims of this board (which I grant are in a minority, this bearing consideration) don't very often act noticeably better. Internet places like this are to trolls and putzes what the sun would be to moths were it brought low enough to swarm around.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Internet places like this are to trolls and putzes what the sun would be to moths were it brought low enough to swarm around.

So are you the troll and I the putz or vice versa?


Yahia, what you have just done is one of the things this non-Muslim finds especially distressing. Rather than hear what is shared with you as something worthy of reflection, it feels like you have simply dismissed my observations out of hand. Not all attacks against non-Muslims are violent in nature, sometimes they are expressed in words or in the conveyance of a closed-off attitude.

 

[glo]

So are you the troll and I the putz or vice versa?

Which would you rather be??

 

[Zafran]

Zafran- The non-Muslim girl is just as much as in the wrong as the Muslim boys. My point is as soon as this was posted everyone immediately went onto the defensive, blaming the media instead of condemning the actions of the individuals.

It's not that Muslims should be expected to just sit there saying so and son shouldn't have done that, that was wrong, like parrots. Just, whenever incidents crop up that show Muslims in a bad light actually acknowledge it instead of looking somewhere else to put the blame

the boys did wrong - the girl did wrong - the problem lies when people do wrong - why does the enitre muslim community have to say sorry??? Your right these are incidents they come and they go.

Terry Johns showed himself in a bad light but I dont expect the entire christendom to blame there religion or even themselves for it.

another thing about Bad PR - sorry we're not selling anything here - if people want to follow Islam they can and if people dont they dont have to - if the want to hate Islam because of a few people then they are free to waste there own time and life.

well it is from the daily mail - do i have to say anymore? If we were going to condem everything the daily mail reports we will be here all day.

 

[Zafran]

I don't blame you at all for seeking this. As a general rule, I too hate sweeping generalizations or any other form of stereotype.

One of the reasons that I joined this forum years ago, was to find and provide credible evidence in written form from Muslims themselves of the true nature of Islam to some of my Christian friends who were engaged in what I saw as stereotypical portrayals of Islam. I knew those generalizations that they were engaged in where not indicative of Islam because they reflected not a single Muslim that I knew personally. And at that time I was occassionally attending a mosque with my daughter, so I did indeed have regular contact with quite a number of Muslims.

Here is the sad thing. If I were to know Islam based soley on the interactions I have had with Muslims on this board, and not with those whom I know in personal and real life, I would say that the stereotype proves itself more true than false. Again, I don't say that all of Islam is that way. I certainly don't say that every individual here is that way, I could easily recite a dozen or more names that run counter to the generalization. But sadly I learned that while the generalization should never be assumed to be true of any given individual, as the public image of Islam is not universally true, that there actually is some reality behind the view of Islam that has been popularized in the western media. Muslims generally will aver to other Muslims over and against non-Muslims regardless the attitudes expressed by their fellow Muslim.

When there is a conflict between the goals or agendas of two persons and one of them is a Muslim and one of them is not. Other Muslims not invovled in the conflict generally don't seem to view the conflict in terms the issues themselves, but in terms of being supportive or non-supportive of a brother or sister in the faith.

You may disagree that this is an expression of reality. You may argue that what I say is untrue. And you may indeed be more right than I. But what you still need to hear is that these were not views that I came to this board holding, nor were my views developed as a result of the influence of western media, but rather this view that I have expressed is a direct result of my time on LI and the general tenor of what I have read here.

It is only because of my close personal relationships with Muslim friends and family in real life, that I have not fully adopted the above view. Fortunately, in every day life, Muslims remain among the nicest people I meet.

The same can be said about christian forums or any other religous forums and groups in reality.

 

[Zafran]

^ This

You need not spend much time or effort condemning radical muslims, but you do need to refrain from sheltering them, excusing them, enabling them, justifying them, and calling them "brothers". And when really big tings happen that draw major media attention, you should certainly be mindful of your collective image. The best example of this I can think of is the "9/11 mosque" outrage and how well the muslim people involved handled it. The crazy guy who was threatening to burn Qurans etc. This was handled very well by a number of people in various muslim communities, calmy, and taking the moral high road. Contrast that to the rioting over cartoons.

who started the 9/11 contrevesy or Quran burning or the cartoon? doesnt matter how muslims handle it - It doesnt stop the anti Islamic hatred from the extremists.

 

[Grace Seeker]

The same can be said about christian forums or any other religous forums and groups in reality.

I am sorry if this is what you have experience. Perhaps I have been fortunate, but my experience has been different than your post would suggest.

 

[Pygoscelis]

who started the 9/11 contrevesy or Quran burning or the cartoon? doesnt matter how muslims handle it - It doesnt stop the anti Islamic hatred from the extremists.

True. There will always be crazies (usually the ultra right wing fundamentalist Christians ironically) who will hate muslims simply for being the "other" - for not being christians - for being muslims etc. I feel your pain from these people, because they feel the same way towards atheists as they do towards muslims.

But when the muslims then turn around and take the moral high road, don't freak out and get violent, don't respond in kind, it improves the image of Islam to those of us who are not these people. And believe it or not, we outnumber them. And perhaps muslims may wish to deny it, but yes, it does matter what image we non-muslims hold of Islam. Have you not been eyed wearily by some ignorant westerner or been racially profiled? Heck, the Image of Islam has gotten so bad that a friend of mine who is atheist gets harrassed because he "looks muslim". Apparently some people are even confusing "muslim" as a race. Some guy got stabbed in New York around the time of the "ground zero mosque" too, for "looking muslim".

I truly believe that the quran burning crazy preacher guy PURPOSEFULLY did what he did in an attempt to bait and rile up muslims so as to provide another talking point about how muslims are. I would wager very heavily that he did it hoping for a violent response. Instead he got a measured, calm, and peaceful response of "how sad for this man to be so hateful".

Contrast that to people rioting in the streets after learning about a cartoon. That difference in approach really DOES make a difference for the image of Islam.

 

[GuestFellow]

But when the muslims then turn around and take the moral high road, don't freak out and get violent, don't respond in kind, it improves the image of Islam to those of us who are not these people.

Your right that Muslims should not respond violently to insults. It gives publicity to these people who insult Islam.

 

[Zafran]

well they you go the 9/11 contreversy and the Quran burning incidents have demonized Muslims - Even if muslims acted calmly people are still harrassed simply because they look muslim - You gave good examples of showing that it doesnt matter how muslims act - people are ready to hate muslims and even try to kill them - like the Taxi driver during the ground zero contreversy.

The people that demonize muslims are winning not because they are right but people want to believe there messege.