Do Muslims Rely More on Sahih Bukhari Ahadith than the Qur'an??? (OP)
Total number of traditions in 9 volumns of Bukhari are 7,000 plus. The number of hadiths collected and attributed to Prophet Muhammed (S) is in the hundreds of
thousands, approximately 700,000. And 99% of all these hundreds of thousands of hadiths are pure lies and fabrications which were rejected by the early Muslim scholars who thought they could figure out which hadith was authentic and which wasn't. Let us look at some of the other hadith collectors and what they collected.
(1) Malik bin Anas collected about 500 hadiths in his famous book, "Al-Muwattaa."
(2) Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, collected about 40,000 hadiths in his famous "Musnad". He chose these 40,000 hadiths from among 700,000 hadiths. In other words he thought 660,000 ahadith were un-proven lies and/or fabrications. That is, 94% lies and fabrications.
(3) Bukhari collected more than 600,000 hadiths and accepted 7,275 hadiths and considered 592,725 hadiths to be un-proven hadiths, lies and/or fabrications, that is almost 99% of what he collected.
(4)Muslem collected 300,000 hadiths and accepted only 4,000. He rejected about 296,000 which is almost 99% of his collected hadiths.
This should give an idea of how much corruption entered or tried to enter Islam from the back door.
Now we should understand why God promised to preserve, protect and safeguard His Book which is the ONLY authentic Hadith, the ONLY acceptable Hadith, the BEST HADITH - the Noble Quran. NO such guarantee was offered to the fabrications and lies of the fabricators and liars who claimed to 'improve' on the Book of Allah by 'explaining' it and called the Quran incomplete and undetailed and claimed that the Quran needs clarification by another book.
The Jews, more than a hundred year after Prophet Moses' death created Mishnah (hadith or narrations) and Gemarrah (sunna or actions). The Jews upheld these and the invented laws within them rather than the TORAH, the revealed Word of God Almighty.
Three hundred years after the passing away of Jesus, son of Virgin Mary, the Christians created the concept of trinity which is now the primary source of Christian belief in defiance of the original Bible which commanded the absolute worship of God Alone.
The Muslims, 150 to 200 years after the death of Prophet Muhammed (S), CREATED another source of their religion alongside the Noble Quran, the "Hadith & Sunnah" falsely attributed to the Prophet Muhammed in defiance of the Quran. Today most Muslims have discarded the Quran in favor of the Hadith & Sunnah.
When I first entered Islam it was by the grace of Allah and his words in the Holy Qur'an. I heard of the most elegant hadiths and found them to be very inspirational and motivating. Later on I found out other hadiths attributed to the Prophet (S), that were out of the character of Prophet Muhammed (S), and Islam. The sad thing is most Muslims would consider you kuffar for doubting or questioning Ahadith. You can go to just about any Masajid and the khutbahs will be from Ahadith and not the Qur'an. How can we say that Islam is religion of peace, and at the same time kill the apostates? I think Ahadith corrupt what Islam means...
My question is why do we blindly follow man-made hadiths over the word of the Lord of the Worlds?
All through out the Quran, when GOD decrees His laws and prohibitions, He always precedes these verses by calling to the believers, or the people of scripture, and sometimes to mankind in general. He will start the injunction with either Ya aayahul 'alaytheena amanu, or Ya ahl il-kitab, or ya Nnaas, meaning "Oh believers", "Oh People of the Scripture" and "Oh mankind" respectively.
Nowhere, NOWHERE, in the Quran does GOD EVER issue a decree to the believers, or to the followers of the scripture or to man in general to follow hadith and sunnah. If it is so important, if it is absolutely neccessary for our salvation, if we were in need of it for our guidance, if GOD had decreed that the believers follow hadith and sunnah, HE WOULD HAVE "CLEARLY" SAID SO in the CLEAR and LAW-GIVING verses which address the believers and the followers of the scripture.
None of GOD's decrees, commandments, laws and prohibitions are ambiguous, in the form of riddles and left to us to guess and figure it out. Moreover, Nowhere in the Quran is the word hadith attached to the word prophet, or to the word messenger or to the name of Muhammad. And all of these words are mentioned in the Quran, but NEVER together and in connection to each other. And Nowhere in the Quran does GOD ever say "Oh you who believe, you must establish the sunnah and follow the hadith", or "Oh followers of the Scripture, you must establish the sunnah and follow the hadith", and neither does He say follow the hadith or sunnah of Muhammad, of The Messenger or of The Prophet.
Unless the commandment can be pointed out in the Quran for believers to follow hadith and sunnah, the traditionalists HAVE NO ARGUMENT!!! Anything that they try to come up with concerning super-human memories of narrators, the honesty of narrarators, weak and strong hadith, isnaad, science of hadith, etc. are 100% Moot!!!
One last thing and I'm thru with this thread....GOD also tells the prophet "WHAT" to say to the people. GOD would precede the commandment to the prophet with the command verb Qul,(Say). Nowhere in the Quran does GOD address the prophet and tell him to Qul(say) "Oh people, follow the hadith and establish my sunnah." I'm afraid there is no argument. This right here completely and totally shuts down the entire hadith and sunnah doctrine. Unless of course someone can point out to me the "Law" of establishing the hadith and sunnah in the "law-Giving" verses of the Quran....
Where do you get all this information from? Did you develop this way of thinking on your own, or are you being taught this from someone? (Also, if you don't mind... Could you tell us your level of education in Islam? Where have you studied, who have you been taught from, do you even know Arabic?)
Also, does it not bother you that such a drastic position has never been held in over 1400 years of Islamic thought? Are you comfortable saying that generations of scholars were flat out wrong in almost everything they said? Do you have any scholars that you follow, or at least try to learn from? Or do you follow the religion only according to what you think and what you have interpreted?
And finally, can I ask why you didn't respond to Muraad's question on the first page? He asked you a single, simple question, and said that if you could provide him an answer he would concede. I haven't seen you address it yet.
I'd also like to make a quick side comment to the mod(s) who seem to be freaking out over this thread... Don't try to close it just yet. I know we all think he's dead wrong, but let us at least try to learn a bit about how he thinks. I'm intrigued.
16:43 Sahih International
And We sent not before you except men to whom We revealed [Our message]. So ask the people of the message if you do not know.
16:44 Sahih International
[We sent them] with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.
16:63 Sahih International
By Allah , We did certainly send [messengers] to nations before you, but Satan made their deeds attractive to them. And he is the disbelievers' ally today [as well], and they will have a painful punishment.
16:64 Sahih International
And We have not revealed to you the Book, [O Muhammad], except for you to make clear to them that wherein they have differed and as guidance and mercy for a people who believe.
IN the Qur'an, Allah orders Rasulullah to "MAKE CLEAR TO THEM" what was sent as guidance, and that this s a MERCY from Alllah!
so, once Rasulullah explains what is guidance, how would you pass this guidance on?
you may be puzzled as to what IS authentic or WHY it is, BUT to DENY something that IS authentic is an act of kufr.
May Allah guide us all!
Had the non-believer known of all the Mercy which is in the Hands of Allah, he would not lose hope of entering Paradise, and had the believer known of all the punishment which is present with Allah, he would not consider himself safe from the Hell-Fire http://www.muftimenk.co.za/Downloads.html
Did you develop this way of thinking on your own, or are you being taught this from someone?
I used to be a Christian who was spoon fed that ideology for half of my life. Why would I embrace a new faith and do the same thing?? Allah has bestowed me a brain to use. I grew up questioning EVERYTHING, and it didn't stop by being a Muslim. Allah even tells us if we doubt the Qur'an go out in the world and find proof against it if you can. Allah is encouraging us to think and use your logic and reason that he blessed those with it to use.
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Also, does it not bother you that such a drastic position has never been held in over 1400 years of Islamic thought?
NO! The Christians have and have had institutions, and schools of thought since before the Prophet was born, does that make their belief correct?
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
Are you comfortable saying that generations of scholars were flat out wrong in almost everything they said?
Scholars???? Isn't it odd that out of the 6 major compilers of hadith non of them were Arabic? All hadith compilations were collected by Persians. Bukhari was born over 200 years after the Prophet died. What the Hell did Muslims do those years before Imam Bukhari was born?
format_quote Originally Posted by Tyrion
And finally, can I ask why you didn't respond to Muraad's question on the first page?
Re: Do Muslims Rely More on Sahih Bukhari Ahadith than the Qur'an???
format_quote Originally Posted by Muraad
I just have one simple question for you, if you can provide the answer for to it, then I'll take your argument as valid, otherwise know that you are mislead and are misleading people and that you are bringing forth an agenda that will never be accepted by the Muslims (even the least educated of them) because the religion is protected from false paradigms through a science known as Usul al-Fiqh.
In the Qur'an, Allaah quotes the Prophet (saw) as saying:
وإذ أسر النبي إلى بعض أزواجه حديثا فلما نبأت به وأظهره الله عليه عرف بعضه وأعرض عن بعض فلما نبأها به قالت من أنبأك هذا قال نبأني العليم الخبير
All I want you to do is provide me the verse in the Qur'an where the Prophet (saw) was informed about the situation the above verse is talking about.
The result is going to be one of two:
1) You will provide me the verse
2) You will not provide me the verse
If you provide me the verse, I will agree with you.
If you do not, then you will have admitted that the Prophet (saw) received a revelation other than the Qur'an thus forfeiting your position that there is no Divine source for the Sunnah and Hadeeth.
قل هاتوا برهانكم إن كنتم صادقين
When the Prophet confided a fact unto one of his wives and when she afterward divulged it and Allah apprised him thereof, he made known (to her) part thereof and passed over part. And when he told it her she said: Who hath told thee? He said: The Knower, the Aware hath told me.
He (Murad) is trying to make the point that the Prophet recieved revelations outside of the Quran. No there isnt a verse that I'm aware of that speaks of this situation. Allahu Alam Maybe a Dream or maybe not, but the point is we cant speculate on the unseen. What's important is the message of the verse. People who cling to hadith try to justify the hadith using Qur'an but they fall short every single time.
Re: Do Muslims Rely More on Sahih Bukhari Ahadith than the Qur'an???
format_quote Originally Posted by all4salam
When the Prophet confided a fact unto one of his wives and when she afterward divulged it and Allah apprised him thereof, he made known (to her) part thereof and passed over part. And when he told it her she said: Who hath told thee? He said: The Knower, the Aware hath told me.
He (Murad) is trying to make the point that the Prophet recieved revelations outside of the Quran. No there isnt a verse that I'm aware of that speaks of this situation. Allahu Alam Maybe a Dream or maybe not, but the point is we cant speculate on the unseen. What's important is the message of the verse. People who cling to hadith try to justify the hadith using Qur'an but they fall short every single time.
Ok, good. Now we're getting somewhere.
You've admitted that
1) that there isn't a verse in the Qur'an where the Prophet (saw) was informed of this situation
2) that even though it is not in the Qur'an, he was informed of this situation
3) that he (saw) directly attributed learning about the situation to Allaah.
Logically, it follows that if he wasn't informed of it (i)through the Qur'an and (ii)he was informed of it by Allaah from a different way, then there is other revelation that the Prophet (saw) received besides the Qur'an. It does not matter what form that revelation takes because as you have conceded, it exists. By admitting this, you've invalidated your own premise that the Qur'an is the only source of the religion by virtue of being the only revelation that the Prophet (saw) received, which we both now agree is not the case.
Good. Now that this is clear, next question.
Allaah says in the Qur'an:
والذين يؤمنون بما أنزل إليك
You're next step in proving your claim is that you will need to provide evidence that the Qur'an is the only revelation that the Messenger (saw) received specifically as the verse here is general not specific by virtue of the language, in terms of the revelation encompassing everything that was revealed to the Prophet (saw). The بما in the ayah makes it clear in the language that who the الذين is referring to must, unequivocally accept all of أنزل إليك.
Bear in mind you've already admitted that he (saw) received revelation in addition to the Qur'an. The result here will be one of two:
1) You will provide the evidence, in which case I will agree with you.
2) You will not provide the evidence, in which case you will further concede your original position and admit that the Qur'an commands the believers to believe in every revelation that the Prophet (saw) received.
As a side note,
People who cling to hadith try to justify the hadith using Qur'an but they fall short every single time.
My question to you was solely from the Qur'an itself, so I am not sure what you are referring to here.
Statements such as this do not bring your argument any closer to academic validation. Emotional validation, yes. But emotional validation has no place in a discussion such as this. It is as if you are trying to convince yourself of the validity of your argument by merely repeating a claim that you have so far failed to back up.
“Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun
"It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl
Allah (SWT) alone is knower of the unseen. Muhammad (SAW) knows of the unseen only that which is disclosed to him (via Revelation) (7:188, 46:9). 72:26-28 states that Allah (SWT) does not reveal the unseen to anyone except to whom he chooses as Messenger. The unseen there is specified in 72:27 to be the Message (Qur’an).
Why do you uphold the ahadith "prophecies" (affecting your decisions in the argument against "Qur'aniyun")? If Muhammad (SAW) was given the Qur'an and something like it, can you produce it such that it surpasses the Qur'an (since that is the challenge)?
Re: Do Muslims Rely More on Sahih Bukhari Ahadith than the Qur'an???
One of my difficulties I had with Ahadith was not understanding what they are. I can be quite hard headed and stuck in my ways. When I first became aware of the aHadith I made the error of relating them to my old previous Christian path and saw them as being similar if not identical to church dogma and/or church canon. That is not what they are.
In simple terms the Ahadith are eye witness accounts of what the Prophet(PBUH) did and said. A collection of authenticate Ahadith is like having the Prophet(PBUH) explaining to us how he understood the way to live as a Muslim.
I can not think of anybody who would have understood Islam better. How can we go wrong if we live by doing as Muhammad(PBUH) did? That is what we learn from the Authenticate Ahadith.
I am a bit confused as to what you are asking. Can you briefly tell us what you believe the Ahadith to be?
Second can you give us an example of what you specifically mean. Such as a Hadith followed with an explanation as to how you understand it to contradict the Qur'an?
“Soon there will be a time when a man will be reclining on his couch, narrating a hadeeth from me, and he will say, ‘Between us and you is the Book of Allaah: what it says is halaal, we take as halaal, and what it says is haraam, we take as haraam.’ But listen! Whatever the Messenger of Allaah forbids is like what Allaah forbids.” (Al-Fath al-Kabeer, 3/438. Al-Tirmidhi reported it with different wording, and said that it is hasan saheeh. Sunan al-Tirmidhi bi Sharh Ibn al-‘Arabi, al-Saawi edn., 10/132).
Abu Dawood reported it with "I was given the Qur'an, and something like it". The challenge is the same for all religious law outside of the Qur'an.
“Soon there will be a time when a man will be reclining on his couch, narrating a hadeeth from me, and he will say, ‘Between us and you is the Book of Allaah: what it says is halaal, we take as halaal, and what it says is haraam, we take as haraam.’ But listen! Whatever the Messenger of Allaah forbids is like what Allaah forbids.” (Al-Fath al-Kabeer, 3/438. Al-Tirmidhi reported it with different wording, and said that it is hasan saheeh. Sunan al-Tirmidhi bi Sharh Ibn al-‘Arabi, al-Saawi edn., 10/132).
Abu Dawood reported it with "I was given the Qur'an, and something like it". The challenge is the same for all religious law outside of the Qur'an.
Peace.
Do you happen to know off hand if that is a strong or weak Hadith? Tirmidhi is divided itno 5 different levels of reliability. I am still too new at the studying of Ahadith to determine which category this one is in. Like many newbies I only stick with the 4 Imams that have a high level of reliability.
Re: Which Hadith Do You Believe Besides the Qur'an?
To be honest I am still new at Ahadith. But I do believe that all of Bhukari is quoting what the actual witnesses recorded what Muhammad(PBUH) really did say and do.
Re: Do Muslims Rely More on Sahih Bukhari Ahadith than the Qur'an???
"You're next step in proving your claim is that you will need to provide evidence that the Qur'an is the only revelation that the Messenger (saw) received specifically as the verse here is general not specific by virtue of the language, in terms of the revelation encompassing everything that was revealed to the Prophet (saw). The بما in the ayah makes it clear in the language that who the الذين is referring to must, unequivocally accept all of أنزل إليك."
With the guidance of the Quran we can quickly establish that Muhammad did not receive ANY revelation from God other than the Quran. Yes the prophet was inspired by God in certain personal matter, an example of that is found in 66:3 where God inspired the prophet regarding the truth of a domestic issue. However, this was mere inspiration from God and not revelation. The difference between inspiration and revelation is that God inspires all humans (note how God inspired the mother of Moses). God also inspires the animals (example of that is in 16:68 where God tells us how He inspires the bees). This is different from revelation which is specificaly an inspired scripture which contains religious laws and prohibitions
Note here that the hadith followers uphold the hadith and sunna as the second source of Islamic law besides the Quran, and by doing so they elevate the hadith to the status of revelation.
We are told in the Quran that the prophet did not receive any revelation from God other than the Quran:
"Say (Muhammad): What thing is "Akbar Shahada" (greatest testimony)? Say: God is a Witness between me and you; this QURAN has been revealed to me by inspiration that with it I may warn you and all whom it reaches (BALAGHA)" 6:19
This testimony which God describes as "Akbar Shahada" (the Greatest Testimony) commands Muhammad to testify that He received the Quran from God. This testimony speaks of only one revelation received by Muhammad from God which is the Quran. If Muhammad truly received other revelations from God (other than the Quran), would we not find any mention of it in the Quran? Would God hide the fact that He gave Muhammad a revelation independant of the Quran and then command us to obey it?
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